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Offline jroa

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Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2014, 01:09:32 AM »
China is busy worrying about knife wielding hordes of ninja Muslims right now.  They will give a fuck when they get the chance.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2014, 01:28:24 AM »
I'd like to know what exactly Russia have done that is illegal, that the US didn't do in Iraq, Vietnam or Afghanistan? Somehow the perception is Russia is doing something illegal. What exactly?

I don't know, something like invading one of its old satellite countries for no reason? The political unrest isn't nearly so bad that Ukraine had to be invaded by a large country.

I also see the US threatening to kick Russia out of the G8. I wasn't aware the US was in charge of the G8?

The US is in charge of the world. The G8 is part of the world.

Also, just wondering, whose side is China on? Unlike us, they seem to be minding their own business as usual.

China will try to nuke Japan when it thinks no one is looking.

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2014, 02:43:05 AM »
I don't think China has said much at all yet. It's in their interest not to.

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
« Reply #43 on: March 04, 2014, 08:21:40 AM »
Well aware and I know that horrible little bastard William Hague is over in Kiev right now telling people what to do. I wish he'd just fuck off and leave them to it. Its not our business.

You do realise we don't live in a bubble of rainbows and unicorns... right?

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2014, 09:56:22 PM »
No one in this thread seems to have any sense outside of Saddam.
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Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
« Reply #45 on: March 04, 2014, 10:54:49 PM »
No one in this thread seems to have any sense outside of Saddam.

Including yourself of course.

Eddy Baby

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
« Reply #46 on: March 04, 2014, 11:04:24 PM »
The situation in short: Russia is entirely in the wrong. End.

Saddam Hussein

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
« Reply #47 on: March 04, 2014, 11:16:52 PM »
No one in this thread seems to have any sense outside of Saddam.

This is always the case, no matter the thread.

Thork

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
« Reply #48 on: March 04, 2014, 11:59:54 PM »

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
« Reply #49 on: March 05, 2014, 01:03:45 AM »
The situation in short: Russia is entirely in the wrong. End.

I think I disagree.  At the very least, I think it's more complicated than that.  Ukraine is a big-time Russian national interest, and Russia has no interest in seeing a coup overthrow the democratically elected, pro-Russia, Ukrainian government.

I get that there are some important differences between these two, but I imagine the US behaving similarly if the government of Panama was overthrown in a coup supportive of Russia's national interests.  We'd probably go in and shut that shit down right away.  Kinda need that canal.
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Eddy Baby

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
« Reply #50 on: March 05, 2014, 06:36:05 PM »
Ah so it's wrong to illegitimately invade another country unless you reaaallly reaallly want to, in which case it's ok?

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
« Reply #51 on: March 05, 2014, 07:25:26 PM »
Ah so it's wrong to illegitimately invade another country unless you reaaallly reaallly want to, in which case it's ok?
Not at all.  I'm saying that, from Russia's perspective, they're not illegitimately invading another nation.  They're protecting the legitimately elected government from an unconstitutional coup.

And, of course, the US and EU view Russia as interfering with a 'democratic,' popular coup against a corrupt government.  But the US and EU reactions to the crisis are just as politically motivated as Russia's.  The West wants to strengthen ties with former Soviet states and contain Russia.  Russia wants to protect its sphere of influence from the West.

As I mentioned, if the government of Panama was overthrown by a 'pro-Russia' coup (or any other coup that threatened our access to the Panama Canal), then I would see no problem with the US acting to protect and reinstate the legitimately elected government.  Not only are we allies with and protectorates of that government, but also we have huge economic and military interests in it.

I'm partly playing the devil's advocate here.  I'm not super pro-Russia on this crisis.  But I also don't think that their behavior and rationale are totally off the mark.
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Offline Rushy

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Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
« Reply #52 on: March 05, 2014, 07:49:34 PM »
Not at all.  I'm saying that, from Russia's perspective, they're not illegitimately invading another nation.  They're protecting the legitimately elected government from an unconstitutional coup.

No, they're keeping a revolution from turning a pro-Russia government into a pro-EU government, which would cost them their only deep warm water port. A EU Ukraine would devastate the Russian economy. This isn't at all about Ukraine itself, Russia is acting solely in Russia's best interest.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
« Reply #53 on: March 05, 2014, 08:04:28 PM »
Gary, you may want to read up on that "legitimately" and "democratically elected government". Its election was surrounded with questions and unexplained inconsistencies, which eventually led to Tymoshenko being jailed for questioning it too much.
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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
« Reply #54 on: March 05, 2014, 09:19:00 PM »
As I understand it, that whole area is basically pro Russian because they are mostly Russian immigrants. 

As long as Russia doesn't start killing, they're fine in my book.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
« Reply #55 on: March 05, 2014, 10:31:55 PM »
As I understand it, that whole area is basically pro Russian because they are mostly Russian immigrants.
Not exactly. Crimea was transferred to Ukraine in the 1950s. They didn't move to Ukraine - Ukraine moved to them.

Here's a decent starting point: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26367786
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Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
« Reply #56 on: March 05, 2014, 11:02:46 PM »
Here's a decent starting point: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26367786
Lol, that's a link to our state-run media. If ever you wanted a biased link, the BBC is it. That is the most undecent starting point you could have offered. Even a link to one of Rushy's rants would have been a more fitting start.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
« Reply #57 on: March 06, 2014, 12:08:39 AM »
As I understand it, that whole area is basically pro Russian because they are mostly Russian immigrants.
Not exactly. Crimea was transferred to Ukraine in the 1950s. They didn't move to Ukraine - Ukraine moved to them.

Here's a decent starting point: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26367786
Yeah but wasn't most of Ukrain's Western half shipped over from Russia when it was the soviet union to deal with some massive under-population due to death or something?
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
« Reply #58 on: March 06, 2014, 01:59:11 AM »
No, they're keeping a revolution from turning a pro-Russia government into a pro-EU government, which would cost them their only deep warm water port. A EU Ukraine would devastate the Russian economy. This isn't at all about Ukraine itself, Russia is acting solely in Russia's best interest.

Ultimately, I agree completely.  That's what I was getting at with my Panama analogy.  The US would certainly have a keen (and legitimate, in my view) interest in protecting the Panama canal.  Likewise, I think Russia has a legitimate interest in protecting its resources in Crimea.

Personally, I think it's about more than that.  Russia's national and cultural interests aren't at odds here.  They're both important causes.  And, the Ukraine is undoubtedly a state to which Russia feels a strong regional and cultural connection.  They're its protectorate.

Gary, you may want to read up on that "legitimately" and "democratically elected government". Its election was surrounded with questions and unexplained inconsistencies, which eventually led to Tymoshenko being jailed for questioning it too much.

The European Union thought in 2010 that it was a fair election: http://www.ponarseurasia.org/sites/default/files/policy-memos-pdf/pepm_090.pdf

Quote
The dénouement of Ukraine’s presidential election in January-February 2010 was as raucous as the campaign. Appearing at a victory rally on election night, Viktor Yanukovych spoke to his supporters only in Russian, even as he claimed to be grateful to “all Ukrainians.” In subsequent days, the defeated candidate, Yulia Tymoshenko, refused to accept the outcome even though all international election monitors reported that the election had been fair and legitimate...The head of the large election observer mission for the Organization for Cooperation and Security in Europe, Heidi Tagliavini, hailed the 2010 Ukrainian election as “a well-administered and truly competitive election offering
voters a clear choice.”

I don't think that the West should now turn around and use political corruption as an excuse to support an unconstitutional coup of a democratically elected government. 

FWIW, Tymoshenko wasn't jailed for questioning the elections.  Lots of people in Ukraine did that.  She and Yanukovych have been political adversaries for nearly 20 years.  Tymoshenko was probably arrested to prevent her from seeking office in the future.

A good summary of those events: http://helsinki.org.ua/files/docs/1321265218.pdf

As I understand it, that whole area is basically pro Russian because they are mostly Russian immigrants. 

The Crimea and the Eastern part of Ukraine are largely ethnically Russian, with the rest of the country mostly ethnic Ukrainian.  The ethnic Russia's are very pro-Russia, but the ethnic Ukrainians are more divided.  Some love the West.  Some just want to be independent of both the West and Russia.  And, some still see Russia has a valuable protectorate. 

You also have a smattering of other ethnicities that complicate things.  Moldavians, Poles, Tatars, Belarusians, etc.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
« Reply #59 on: March 06, 2014, 04:06:41 AM »
The European Union thought in 2010 that it was a fair election: http://www.ponarseurasia.org/sites/default/files/policy-memos-pdf/pepm_090.pdf [...]
FWIW, Tymoshenko wasn't jailed for questioning the elections.  Lots of people in Ukraine did that.
Yes, but "lots of people" were not figureheads of the questioning. Tymoshenko was. There's no point in jailing "lots of people" when you can resolve the whole situation by jailing one.

To claim that she wasn't jailed for questioning the elections means to ignore the timeline of events. The fact that the West tried to maintain good "soft" relations with Russia in the past does nothing to substantiate your claim that Russia's wanton invasion is legitimate.
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