Thork

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
« Reply #80 on: March 06, 2014, 10:11:58 PM »
So what do you think would have happened 80 (ish) years ago when Germany decided to invade Poland if the UK just didn't give a shit?
They invaded anyway. If we had left well alone, Hitler would have mopped up all the Jewish bankers, all the Jewish media-moguls and Israel wouldn't exist.


Now your just being stupid. Please form a proper argument without being silly (and attempting to be a troll).

Should we let Iran and Israel have nuclear weapons?
Israel does have nuclear weapons.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0762462.html
I think you are getting out of your depth.

You might be trying to have a pissing contest by suggesting I'm out of my depth. I'm not interested.

Israel is not a recognised nuclear state (because if it were it would be highly unstable for the region). It probably does have nuclear weapons but until it's proven otherwise, Israel does not have nuclear weapons officially.

I also said we should arm Iran through the logic of your argument, so what are your thoughts on that?
We shouldn't be arming anyone. We should be minding our own bloody business.

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Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
« Reply #81 on: March 06, 2014, 10:13:00 PM »
That's not the look of a tired woman. That's the look of a woman that has donated her face for extensive wind tunnel testing.
Tired? No, I agree. Severely exhausted for 3 years? Quite possibly.
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Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
« Reply #82 on: March 06, 2014, 10:20:03 PM »
So what do you think would have happened 80 (ish) years ago when Germany decided to invade Poland if the UK just didn't give a shit?
They invaded anyway. If we had left well alone, Hitler would have mopped up all the Jewish bankers, all the Jewish media-moguls and Israel wouldn't exist.


Now your just being stupid. Please form a proper argument without being silly (and attempting to be a troll).

Should we let Iran and Israel have nuclear weapons?
Israel does have nuclear weapons.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0762462.html
I think you are getting out of your depth.

You might be trying to have a pissing contest by suggesting I'm out of my depth. I'm not interested.

Israel is not a recognised nuclear state (because if it were it would be highly unstable for the region). It probably does have nuclear weapons but until it's proven otherwise, Israel does not have nuclear weapons officially.

I also said we should arm Iran through the logic of your argument, so what are your thoughts on that?
We shouldn't be arming anyone. We should be minding our own bloody business.

Ok I'll rephrase it. Do you think we should allow Iran to arm itself with nuclear weapons by 'minding our own business' and doing bugger all to stop them?

Thork

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
« Reply #83 on: March 06, 2014, 10:30:00 PM »
Yes.

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
« Reply #84 on: March 06, 2014, 10:37:32 PM »
Yes.

So what do you think the ramifications of that might be for the interests of the UK?

Thork

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
« Reply #85 on: March 06, 2014, 10:55:14 PM »
None. If we left them alone, they would be so busy squabbling with their neighbours they wouldn't give us a second thought.

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
« Reply #86 on: March 07, 2014, 03:00:15 AM »
This is all irrelevant to my point that Russia has a legitimate interest in protecting the democratically-elected government in Ukraine from an unconstitutional coup.
Indeed, but it's not irrelevant to the claim I made, which you're currently responding to - that the election was far from legitimate. Please try to keep up with your own claims.
I've already provided you with evidence that international monitors approved the 2010 elections.  Here's more:

http://www.utoronto.ca/jacyk/ElectionWatch/Blog/Entries/2010/1/19_International_observers_say_elections_in_Ukraine_held_at_a_high_level-_Jakob_Hedenskog.html
Quote
Despite warnings of large-scale election fraud in the days leading up to Sunday’s vote, officials and international election observers have said the ballot was fair and orderly. The preliminary report of the International Election Observation Mission (OSCE Parliamentary Assembly, NATO Parliamentary Assembly, European Parliament Mps, OSCE Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights, Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe) concluded that the first round of the presidential elections in Ukraine was held in accordance with the majority of obligations taken within the framework of the OSCE and Council of Europe.

Here's the report.  It says that, although there were still some problems, the elections were generally fair and transparent: http://www.enemo.eu/press/Ukraine%202010_ENEMOFinalReport.pdf
Quote
ENEMO observers note that in general the Central Election Commission (CEC) has functioned in a professional, transparent and timely manner. However, throughout these elections the CEC continued its practice of adopting decisions in closed meetings to which observers were not allowed. In addition, CEC has repeatedly failed to issue clear and consistent instructions regarding voter registration during Election Day and mobile voting procedures, which lead to their different implementations by lower-level election commissions across oblasts.

On February 25, 2010 Victor Yanukovich was sworn in as the new President of Ukraine following the final tabulation of results by the Central Election Commission. Prior to that the Higher Administrative Court of Ukraine considered a complaint made by the runner-up candidate Yulia Tymoshenko regarding alleged violations of the voting procedures in several oblasts. However, the Court did not have the chance to make a formal decision because the plaintiff dropped the case. ENEMO observers reported that the contestation took place in a climate free of pressure and in keeping with the Ukrainian laws in vigor.

And more: http://www.osce.org/odihr/elections/51830
Quote
The first round of Ukraine's presidential election was of high quality and showed significant progress over previous elections, meeting most OSCE and Council of Europe commitments, concluded the international election observation mission in a statement published today.

You haven't provided any evidence to the contrary.  You also haven't addressed the fact that it makes no sense to jail Tymoshenko after the intl community approves of the elections, and after she's already dropped her legal challenge, if all he want is to keep her from questioning the legitimacy of his presidency.

And you're wrong anyway.  Tymoshenko was first charged in December of 2010
Sigh. Have you at least tried Googling it, or are you too "well-informed, thanks" for that kind of stuff? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/7717602/Ukraine-reopens-bribery-case-against-Yulia-Tymoshenko.html
Have I tried Googling it?  Is that a joke?  You may want to click a few of the many links I've posted and read the documents attached to them.  They're full of interesting information on the topic at hand.

Tymoshenko was charged in December of 2010.  Your link says: ""At the present moment, a pretrial investigation of the [2005] case has been resumed," its statement said."  And May of 2010 is still after February of 2010, when Tymoshenko dropped her legal challenge to Yanukovych's election.

 
Lexis Nexis.
LexisNexis, the law research tool? I didn't think they do world news, and I'm struggling to find it.



I thought the democratically elected government of Ukraine voted to get rid of the president and replace him with a provisional one until the people of Ukraine can vote on who should run their country.

Russia then invaded and occupied Ukraine because it saw its interests being threatened. That's the coup.

That's certainly the West's viewpoint.  Russia claims that the vote to oust Yanukovych was unconstitutional and illegal, and that it was basically coerced by an angry mob.  I dunno shit about Ukraine's legal system/constitution, though, so I don't have much of an opinion on that.  But, I can understand how Russia would see the new government as the coup.  It seems like it's just a matter of perspective.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2014, 03:12:25 AM by garygreen »
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Offline markjo

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Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
« Reply #87 on: March 07, 2014, 04:01:24 AM »
Or, she stopped wearing makeup.
Which then caused her face to swell to twice its size, turn purple and crumble. If makeup can do that to a woman, we could get you looking like Orlando Bloom.

You'd be surprised what makeup can do:

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If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
« Reply #88 on: March 07, 2014, 06:23:05 AM »
I've already provided you with evidence that international monitors approved the 2010 elections.
That is still irrelevant to your claim. Why are you so afraid of backing off from it?

Have I tried Googling it?  Is that a joke?
Well, if you tried Googling it, you'd know that my date of 12th May 2010 is not "wrong", as you alleged. Therefore, it's not a joke, and no, you did not try. For shame.



Cherry-picking articles from a keyword-based search will not replace the value of reading the news daily. You should try it sometime.

It does explain a lot about your attitude, though.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2014, 06:34:47 AM by pizaaplanet »
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Offline beardo

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Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
« Reply #89 on: March 07, 2014, 07:09:46 AM »
Also, she's really, really hot.
2old
The Mastery.

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
« Reply #90 on: March 07, 2014, 07:32:38 AM »
None. If we left them alone, they would be so busy squabbling with their neighbours they wouldn't give us a second thought.

I reemphasise my point about you thinking we live in a bubble of unicorns and rainbows. Do you honestly think the situation in the middle east would be contained to just Iran having a bit of a 'squabble' with its neighbours?

We live in a world of survival, if we just sat in the corner of the playground and let all the bullies dominate eventually the bullies will take your sandwiches because they've got no one else to pick on.

If everyone had your attitude at the start of WW2 we would all have blond hair, blue eyes and speak German.

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
« Reply #91 on: March 07, 2014, 07:45:14 AM »
That's certainly the West's viewpoint.  Russia claims that the vote to oust Yanukovych was unconstitutional and illegal, and that it was basically coerced by an angry mob.  I dunno shit about Ukraine's legal system/constitution, though, so I don't have much of an opinion on that.  But, I can understand how Russia would see the new government as the coup.  It seems like it's just a matter of perspective.

The default 'western bias' view again. Confirmation bias is strong in this one.

If the military came along and overthrew the government through a coup then I would agree with your stand point.

However the facts speak for them self Ukraines democratically elected government voted to get rid of the president and have a general election. That may have been spurred by the protest going on in the streets of Kiev but, I say it again, the democratically elected government of Ukraine decided to listen to those protesters and remove him from power.

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Offline Eddy Baby

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Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
« Reply #92 on: March 07, 2014, 08:30:47 AM »
Not to mention the introduction of hilariously draconian laws on the 16th of January (among other things, it became illegal to wear a helmet outdoors or drive in a convoy of more than 5 dars) that basically bypassed parliament. The overthrow of Yanukovich was legitimate, no matter what side you look at it from.

Thork

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
« Reply #93 on: March 07, 2014, 12:01:05 PM »
We live in a world of survival, if we just sat in the corner of the playground and let all the bullies dominate eventually the bullies will take your sandwiches because they've got no one else to pick on.
We are the playground bullies. We are the one with all the sandwiches.

If everyone had your attitude at the start of WW2 we would all have blond hair, blue eyes and speak German.
This is absolute horseshit. Hitler didn't want a war with Britain. He admired the British. As for this blonde hair blues eyes propaganda, no, Hitler himself had neither. What he would have prevented was mass immigration from all over the world to European homelands. I have a problem seeing a downside to that.

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Offline markjo

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Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
« Reply #94 on: March 07, 2014, 05:58:40 PM »
This is absolute horseshit. Hitler didn't want a war with Britain. He admired the British.
Is that why he bombed the crap out of England for so long?
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
« Reply #95 on: March 07, 2014, 06:28:18 PM »
To be fair Britain attacked Germany first, but it seems unlikely that Germany would have kept peace with Britain forever.
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

Thork

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
« Reply #96 on: March 07, 2014, 06:52:24 PM »
This is absolute horseshit. Hitler didn't want a war with Britain. He admired the British.
Is that why he bombed the crap out of England for so long?
You're an idiot.

To be fair Britain attacked Germany first, but it seems unlikely that Germany would have kept peace with Britain forever.
Apparently Britain wasn't on the agenda at all. He actually wanted Britain onside. There were certainly no plans to attack. His admiration for the British is well documented.

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
« Reply #97 on: March 07, 2014, 08:57:59 PM »
We live in a world of survival, if we just sat in the corner of the playground and let all the bullies dominate eventually the bullies will take your sandwiches because they've got no one else to pick on.
We are the playground bullies. We are the one with all the sandwiches.


Maybe we are, I'm sick of America trying to force their form of democracy down everyone's throat. However the alternative is that we become the victim and become bullied by the likes of Russia and China (Or Iran if you had your way). I'd rather be the cat and not the mouse thank you.

If everyone had your attitude at the start of WW2 we would all have blond hair, blue eyes and speak German.
This is absolute horseshit. Hitler didn't want a war with Britain. He admired the British. As for this blonde hair blues eyes propaganda, no, Hitler himself had neither. What he would have prevented was mass immigration from all over the world to European homelands. I have a problem seeing a downside to that.

No Hitler wasn't interested in taking over Europe at all. All he wanted to do was take over Poland, Austria and Czechoslovakia to expand the German state. He didn't invade the rest of Europe that was 'minding its own business' did he?..... I mean Russia who helped invade Poland at the beginning of the war (and were good mates with Germany) didn't get invaded by Germany did they?........ Oh wait ......yes they did, shit. I guess Germany would have still left us alone eh because, you know, we were pretty pally with Germany after we beat them in the first world war.


Seriously you're still living in that bubble of unicorns and rainbows...

Thork

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
« Reply #98 on: March 07, 2014, 09:43:42 PM »
I'm sorry, are you equating Russia's move on the Crimea as the start of an assault on all of Europe? Why all the strawmen? Throwing Nazi's into the argument? That's an internet last resort. Nazis are always the very last thing you try to chuck in on an internet forum.

We have no business in Eastern block politics. We aren't the world police.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Russia Invades Ukraine
« Reply #99 on: March 07, 2014, 10:11:11 PM »
We have no business in Eastern block politics. We aren't the world police.
Unless you plan on getting the UK to quit NATO and the UN(SC), then yes, you are part of the world police. Sorry if this upsets you.
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