Offline edby

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Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #40 on: January 10, 2019, 01:42:24 PM »
If you decide that no one has done that then we must be talking about something theoretical that has to do with how the latitude and longitude numbers are determined.
Why is the measurement of latitude and longitude relevant in any way to distances between points?

Latitude and longitude is based on a spherical coordinate system and assumes a globe.
Why would the shape of the earth affect the measurement of these quantities? Take longitude. That is determined by the time the sun is at its zenith. You can measure it if you have an accurate timepiece, and a simple instrument. Why would this measurement be biased by any theory about the shape of the earth?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #41 on: January 10, 2019, 01:43:16 PM »
The Bi-Polar map is for example purposes only. No one made it to be based on anything.
You just gave it as an example of the correct way of solving this dilemma. You chose the bipolar map, because the other maps don't work out for this problem, so let's stick to it:
https://i.imgur.com/PTAoU9U.png
- How can a cross-Earth flight from LA to Sydney only take 13 hours, and only take place over the ocean (thus having to go around the continents)?
- How come the passengers don't notice the refueling, and how come they can only see ocean out the window?

I gave you links showing that they lie about flight times and that they lie about non-stop flights. Yet, you keep insisting that they are truth.

There is also not a Bi-Polar map, only a Bi-Polar model. Are we supposed to design a map around lies?

We haven't even yet discussed the jet streams that are admitted to allow for supersonic flight of commercial airlines...
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 01:51:04 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #42 on: January 10, 2019, 01:53:44 PM »
The Bi-Polar map is for example purposes only. No one made it to be based on anything.
You just gave it as an example of the correct way of solving this dilemma. You chose the bipolar map, because the other maps don't work out for this problem, so let's stick to it:
https://i.imgur.com/PTAoU9U.png
- How can a cross-Earth flight from LA to Sydney only take 13 hours, and only take place over the ocean (thus having to go around the continents)?
- How come the passengers don't notice the refueling, and how come they can only see ocean out the window?
I gave you links showing that they lie about flight times and that they lie about non-stop flights. Yet, you keep insisting that they are truth.
We haven't even discussed jet streams.
There is also not a Bi-Polar map, only a Bi-Polar model. Are we supposed to design a map around lies?
No, you just missed the part where we discussed jet streams and how they can't speed up the plane in both directions. They should slow it down on the return flight.
- You just offered the bipolar map as a solution to the problem. This means you like this map, because it seems most plausible to you in this discussion. So please explain what route a plane would have to take between LA and Sydney in order for the passengers to only see ocean. And how they would refuel over the ocean.

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #43 on: January 10, 2019, 01:58:08 PM »
The Bi-Polar map is for example purposes only. No one made it to be based on anything.
You just gave it as an example of the correct way of solving this dilemma. You chose the bipolar map, because the other maps don't work out for this problem, so let's stick to it:
https://i.imgur.com/PTAoU9U.png
- How can a cross-Earth flight from LA to Sydney only take 13 hours, and only take place over the ocean (thus having to go around the continents)?
- How come the passengers don't notice the refueling, and how come they can only see ocean out the window?

I gave you links showing that they lie about flight times and that they lie about non-stop flights. Yet, you keep insisting that they are truth.

We haven't even discussed jet streams.

There is also not a Bi-Polar map, only a Bi-Polar model. Are we supposed to design a map around lies?
If you are able-bodied there should be nothing really stopping you from getting a license to fly and taking a holiday to pilot yourself to different locations, right? It's not as if it's impossible to test these things out for yourself or even for anyone. Since GPS works and functions as it should, the burden of proof is really on you if you're going to claim that it's all a lie.

The bi-polar map really presents more problems than it solves in terms of flat earth. Not a great example. Before you ask me what a better model would be I'm only going to say that the globe model just works perfectly as it should... The fact that any flat map is having trouble working with real life experiences of travel is surely quite telling?
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #44 on: January 10, 2019, 02:00:43 PM »
There is no Bi-Polar map. It's a Bi-Polar model. When I get around to it I'll replace that image with a circle that has two dots in it for the North Pole and the South Pole.

It is unknown what the map of the earth looks like, mainly because of the lies previously described. The matter is unstudied. Non-stop flights aren't always non-stop. Airline times aren't reliable. Flights are delayed, rescheduled, all the time.

Further, there are wind streams that travel both Eastwards and Westward directions in the southern and northern hemispheres.

If anyone wants to try to make a map based on such lies and vague concepts they are kidding themselves.

I would suggest providing real data, not an Uber driver's itinerary.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 02:03:07 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #45 on: January 10, 2019, 02:03:20 PM »
There is no Bi-Polar map. It's a Bi-Polar model. When I get around to it I'll replace that image with a circle that has two dots in it for the North Pole and the South Pole.
It is unknownn what the map of the earth looks like, mainly because of the lies previously described. Non-stop flights aren't always non-stop. Airline times aren't reliable. Flights are delayed, rescheduled, all the time. If you wants to try to make a map based on that they are joking.
Further, there are wind streams that travel both Eastwards and Westward directions in the southern and northern hemispheres.
Then why did you give it as an example of a solution to the problem? Because on the bipolar model, the continents are moved around, so Argentina would seem closer to Australia. But this creates even more problems for you - the distance between LA and Sydney is even longer, but flights are even shorter. So why did you bother offering something that you know is inaccurate?

Offline edby

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Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #46 on: January 10, 2019, 02:03:42 PM »
If the airlines lie, why not have a thread here or a forum for interested contributors to discuss flights that they have taken?

For example, I flew from LHR to Delhi last year on 8 March, departing 20:40 UK time. The advertised time was 8h:40m, and I remember the actual time being close to that.

More generally, if flights were taking two to three times longer than passengers expected, would nobody have noticed this, with articles in the popular press etc?

[EDIT] And what about business meetings which are carefully planned around timing. If the airlines were completely and utterly lying, how is it that no one has written about this?

To be sure, planes are often late. But the reason they are 'late' is because of the discrepancies people have noticed between expected and actual flight times.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 02:06:48 PM by edby »

Offline edby

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Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #47 on: January 10, 2019, 02:08:44 PM »
How does the measurement of longitude depend on which theory we hold about the shape of the earth?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #48 on: January 10, 2019, 02:10:09 PM »
Quote
More generally, if flights were taking two to three times longer than passengers expected, would nobody have noticed this, with articles in the popular press etc?

There are articles. I just linked to a bunch which said that the airplanes were diverting from course and making unscheduled fuel stops on supposed non-stop flights and annoying a lot of people.

And business people usually schedule their meetings for the next day, FYI.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 02:14:03 PM by Tom Bishop »

Offline edby

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Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #49 on: January 10, 2019, 02:18:06 PM »
Quote
More generally, if flights were taking two to three times longer than passengers expected, would nobody have noticed this, with articles in the popular press etc?

There are articles. I just linked to a bunch which said that the airplanes were diverting from course and making unscheduled fuel stops on supposed non-stop flights and annoying a lot of people.

And business people usually schedule their meetings for the next day, FYI.
And arrange a time to be at their hotel, meet for dinner etc.

A major logical flaw in your argument based on airlines increasing advertised flight times is that they were publishing the 'right' times before. How is that possible if the right time was always a significant multiple of the advertised time? Makes no sense.

[EDIT] And please explain how the measurement of longitude depends on the shape of the earth.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 02:22:18 PM by edby »

Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #50 on: January 10, 2019, 02:24:28 PM »
There are articles. I just linked to a bunch which said that the airplanes were diverting from course and making unscheduled fuel stops on supposed non-stop flights and annoying a lot of people.
And business people usually schedule their meetings for the next day, FYI.
Questions you still haven't answered:
- How can an airliner speed up to mach 2, in both directions between Sydney and LA, or Sydney and Buenos Aires.
- How come the passengers only see the ocean.
- How come you don't notice the refueling. And how many times do you have to refuel to travel 50,000 kilometers!!
- How come your wristwatch shows a 13-16 hour flight duration. Is it linked to the GPS system, too?
- How do you know Africa is not right next door to Florida, if you have no idea where the continents actually are?
- Why aren't you curious?

Offline edby

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Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #51 on: January 10, 2019, 03:06:05 PM »
Apps like this https://www.flightradar24.com are great to track actual times of aircraft. I can verify the accuracy at least for LHR bound flights as I live close to the flight path and can actually see the aircraft out of the window as they come in.

Online iamcpc

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Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #52 on: January 10, 2019, 06:44:15 PM »
- How can a cross-Earth flight from LA to Sydney only take 13 hours, and only take place over the ocean (thus having to go around the continents)?
- How come the passengers don't notice the refueling, and how come they can only see ocean out the window?

I gave you links showing that they lie about flight times and that they lie about non-stop flights. Yet, you keep insisting that they are truth.

There is also not a Bi-Polar map, only a Bi-Polar model. Are we supposed to design a map around lies?

We haven't even yet discussed the jet streams that are admitted to allow for supersonic flight of commercial airlines...

Tom,

Your article does nothing but outline how it is IMPOSSIBLE to lie about flight times. Padding flight time by 15-20 minutes is totally different than outright lying about flight times.

Furthermore look at the information in your article:

The flight time for LHR-DUB has been between 1-1.75 hours going back to 1996.

The flight time for LHR-EDI flight has been between 1:10 to 1:30 going back to 1996.

Madrid to Barcelona flight has been between 1-2 hours going back to 1996.

New york to Chicago has been between 2:10-3:10 hours going back to 1996.
TOkyo to Fukuoka has been between 1:45 to 2:05 going back to 1996.

See the pattern here?


There is a time the plane departs and a time the plane lands. A good estimate to the flight time is the amount of time that passes between these two points in time.

In order to lie about flight times you have to lie about the departure time, lie about the arrival time, or lie about both.

How could someone POSSIBLY lie about the departure time. They have to be honest about it in order to have people board the plane. If they lied and said the plane departed at 2 PM when it really departed at noon I would arrive at 2 PM and I would have missed my flight. If they lied and said the flight departed at 2 PM and it really departed at 4 PM i would have to wait 2 hours to board the plane (the departure time would say 2 PM and my digital, analog, or mechanical clock would say 4 PM).  Even then if the plane departed at 4 PM I could easily look at my clock and accurately determine my departure time.  Literally hundreds of thousands of people can verify this. Myself included. I show up for a 2 PM flight and the plane is taking off and my mechanical wristwatch is showing the time to be about 2 PM, my digital phone clock is showing the time to be 2 PM.

They can't lie about the arrival time either. I tell Grandma my plane is arriving at 3 PM and lo and behold there she is at 3 PM to pick me up from the plane. They say the plane arrives at 3 PM and my mechanical wristwatch says 3 PM and my digital phone clock shows 3 PM. If they were lying about the arrival time Grandma would arrive hours before I arrive or hours after I arrive. Hundreds of thousands of people all over the world can independently verify this literally EVERY day. Test it yourself. Take a flight from LA to Sidney and arrange for someone to pick you up from the airport.


Either way I can still look at my clocks when I depart and look at my clocks when I arrive and see what time it is that I arrived. At this point having know the time I departed and the time I landed gaining a rough estimate about the amount of time that I spent flying.


Secondly how could you lie about a non-stop flight? Is every passenger mind controlled into believing that the plane never landed?

Even assuming that no such non-stop flights exist then that further calls into question several of the flat earth models. It's already borderline impossible that planes are traveling these massive distances in the short amount of times without a stop. How are these planes able to travel such massive distances with a stop? Even if there was 1,000 MPH winds pushing the plane an hour long refueling pit stop would still make these flight times impossible.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 07:05:59 PM by iamcpc »

Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #53 on: January 10, 2019, 06:55:47 PM »
Exactly. You take off from LA, look at your watch, then land in Sydney, look at your watch again. 14 hours would have passed. According to the bi-polar flat Earth model, you have just traveled 50,000 kilometers at missle-like speeds, around Asia and Alaska, carried by a powerul bi-directional wind, and the plane refueled 4 times over the ocean without you noticing. Or, more plausibly, the Earth is actually a globe, and the distance is more like 12,000 km.

Online iamcpc

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Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #54 on: January 10, 2019, 07:08:20 PM »
Exactly. You take off from LA, look at your watch, then land in Sydney, look at your watch again. 14 hours would have passed. According to the bi-polar flat Earth model, you have just traveled 50,000 kilometers at missle-like speeds, around Asia and Alaska, carried by a powerul bi-directional wind, and the plane refueled 4 times over the ocean without you noticing. Or, more plausibly, the Earth is actually a globe, and the distance is more like 12,000 km.

Tom's source just outlines how, since 1996 there has been very little variance in flight times. It also shows that lying about flight times is outright impossible. This does not have to mean the earth is a globe. It just means that a flat circle shaped model fails HORRIBLY to match up to known and verified flight times/distances, verified road travel times/distances, verified shipping times/distances, and modern cartography.

The earth could be flat and these flights could be possible but it requires a flat earth model that I believe I am the only one who can relate to. It does not have a great ice wall, does not have a dome, does not have a firmament etc so it's very unpopular.   It does a VERY good job reconciling with known and verified flight times, flight distances, road travel times, road travel distances, verified shipping times/distances, and modern cartography. It's the earth represented as a flat repeating plane.

www.mapquest.com
www.suncalc.net
maps.yahoo.com
https://www.timeanddate.com/time/map/

« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 07:12:20 PM by iamcpc »

Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #55 on: January 10, 2019, 07:25:02 PM »
Exactly. You take off from LA, look at your watch, then land in Sydney, look at your watch again. 14 hours would have passed. According to the bi-polar flat Earth model, you have just traveled 50,000 kilometers at missle-like speeds, around Asia and Alaska, carried by a powerul bi-directional wind, and the plane refueled 4 times over the ocean without you noticing. Or, more plausibly, the Earth is actually a globe, and the distance is more like 12,000 km.
The earth could be flat and these flights could be possible but it requires a flat earth model that I believe I am the only one who can relate to. It does not have a great ice wall, does not have a dome, does not have a firmament etc.   It does a VERY good job reconciling with known and verified flight times, flight distances, road travel times, road travel distances, verified shipping times/distances, and modern cartography.
Could you post a picture of that model? As a mathematical exercise, it would be fun! There have been attempts to "square the circle", but I don't think any of them work - http://www.3dham.com/blog/flatearth2.html

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Offline WellRoundedIndividual

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Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #56 on: January 10, 2019, 07:35:45 PM »
Totallackey, would you like me to send you the AutoCAD file I drew to verify allaroundtheworlds results? I can also take screen shots of the google map distances and send those, as well. I am not trying to be pretentious or anything. I am trying to show willingness to provide further evidence above and beyond.
BobLawBlah.

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Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #57 on: January 10, 2019, 07:39:40 PM »
Just to add to the list of questions that Tom hasn't so far answered is mine from earlier today.  Why do you seem to jump from one side of the fence to the other selectively when it comes to anything to do with NASA?

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Offline RonJ

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Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #58 on: January 10, 2019, 07:39:53 PM »
Yes, airline flight times can vary a lot.  I've been on countless 12 hour plus flights back & forth between Asia and the USA.  There's lots of good reasons why flights are delayed or take longer.  I've actually been on some flights were we arrived AHEAD of schedule too.  Some flights can't be conducted between airports because of international regulations.  Airliners always have to be a certain distance from an airport where they can land in an emergency while in transit.  That airport and distance depends upon the type of aircraft.  You wouldn't want to land a 747 on and airstrip that 3000 feet long.  Some longer direct routes just don't have a usable, approved emergency airport along the route, so a direct flight is impossible.  Other reasons might be that the airline just doesn't have the passenger count to justify a direct route either. 

It's all an irrelevant argument anyway.  The important (and relevant) argument is the measured distances between the airports where the non-stop flights are made.  Those distances are well known and very accurate.  Just ask a pilot who makes a flight twice a week between two airports thousands of miles apart.  Any flat earth map would also have to accurately represent the distances between all the airports whose coordinates are well known and where the distances to other airports are also accurate.  While you are at it, add in all the seaports as well. 

The problem becomes that all the locations are based upon a 3 dimensional globe geometry.  It would be impossible to construct a flat plane 2 dimensional representation of that and have all the accurately measured distances come out the same. 

That's not my speculation.  It's the math.  The first thing any flat earth geometer would have to do is show mathematically how the distances between any two points on a sphere could accurately be represented as two points on a flat plane. 
For FE no explanation is possible, for RE no explanation is necessary.

Offline edby

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Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #59 on: January 10, 2019, 07:43:06 PM »
The earth could be flat and these flights could be possible
Yet again, exactly how is this possible. See AATW's other post about the impossibility of representing the distances between 4 places on a flat surface. The map has a curved geometry. Sigh.