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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2019, 11:07:24 AM »
- If all distances and continental positions are unknown, then why proudly post an inaccurate map on your site, if you are a movement founded in opposition to inaccurate maps?

The website presents several possible maps in the maps section. The truth is for you, the interested investigators on this forum, to research.
I have, in the thread in the other section about the FE Map. My research demonstrates that no flat earth map is possible - if the distances on Google Maps are accurate.
You say you use Google Maps daily so you clearly trust it's accuracy. I'm not clear then why I'm unable to map 4 points out on a flat map.
I note there has been no FE response other than lackey throwing in some red herrings about screen resolution and refusing to do any checking on my work or do his own.

Is sounds like you have already provided some flat earth arguments in your thread yourself. I don't see any reason for me to suggest that the long range distances might use spherical trigonometry assumptions if you are already doing that.

Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2019, 11:26:59 AM »
I just used distances given on Google Earth, a product you say you use "daily" and therefore must trust.
I don't know how they calculate distances, but I do know it is used by millions of people every day, including you, so if their data is inaccurate then you'd think that would have been noticed.
If you are now claiming that the distances are inaccurate then what is your basis for that? How they are calculated is irrelevant, what is relevant is whether they are correct.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2019, 11:29:53 AM »
I just used distances given on Google Earth, a product you say you use "daily" and therefore must trust.
I don't know how they calculate distances, but I do know it is used by millions of people every day, including you, so if their data is inaccurate then you'd think that would have been noticed.
If you are now claiming that the distances are inaccurate then what is your basis for that? How they are calculated is irrelevant, what is relevant is whether they are correct.

It should be pretty clear that they did not send a little robot with a measuring wheel to go and measure the distance when you made the online request, nor have they ever done that. Next you should probably consider if anyone has ever done that. If you decide that no one has done that then we must be talking about something theoretical that has to do with how the latitude and longitude numbers are determined.

Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2019, 11:35:53 AM »
- If all distances and continental positions are unknown, then why proudly post an inaccurate map on your site, if you are a movement founded in opposition to inaccurate maps?
The website presents several possible maps in the maps section. The truth is for you, the interested investigators on this forum, to research.
Several possible maps? In all Flat Earth maps, the distance between Australia and Argentina is shown to span almost the entire Earth. Hence the question - how fast, and with how much fuel does an airliner have to travel in order to traverse the whole Earth? How small does the world have to be to make that flight possible?

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2019, 11:37:20 AM »
I just used distances given on Google Earth, a product you say you use "daily" and therefore must trust.
I don't know how they calculate distances, but I do know it is used by millions of people every day, including you, so if their data is inaccurate then you'd think that would have been noticed.
If you are now claiming that the distances are inaccurate then what is your basis for that? How they are calculated is irrelevant, what is relevant is whether they are correct.

It should be pretty clear that they did not send a little robot with a measuring wheel to go and measure the distance when you made the online request, nor have they ever done that. Next you should probably consider if anyone has ever done that. If you decide that no one has done that then we must be talking about something theoretical that has to do with how the latitude and longitude numbers are determined.
Saying you haven't proven it to be correct or incorrect doesn't disprove it being correct. Google maps proves it's self correct when literally anyone uses it and results in the correct time estimations and destinations.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2019, 11:39:13 AM »
- If all distances and continental positions are unknown, then why proudly post an inaccurate map on your site, if you are a movement founded in opposition to inaccurate maps?
The website presents several possible maps in the maps section. The truth is for you, the interested investigators on this forum, to research.
Several possible maps? In all Flat Earth maps, the distance between Australia and Argentina is shown to span almost the entire Earth. Hence the question - how fast, and with how much fuel does an airliner have to travel in order to traverse the whole Earth? How small does the world have to be to make that flight possible?

The Flat Earth movement also has the Bi-Polar maps and models. See the bottom of this page: httpss://wiki.tfes.org/Flat_Earth_Maps

The Bi-Polar models were derived by the Flat Earth movement when the South Pole was discovered in the early 1900's and Antarctica was more fully explored. The Monopole model is the more general and popularized model because it appears in ENAG, and persists because independent access to Antarctica is difficult.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 11:53:24 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2019, 11:53:59 AM »
- If all distances and continental positions are unknown, then why proudly post an inaccurate map on your site, if you are a movement founded in opposition to inaccurate maps?
The website presents several possible maps in the maps section. The truth is for you, the interested investigators on this forum, to research.
Several possible maps? In all Flat Earth maps, the distance between Australia and Argentina is shown to span almost the entire Earth. Hence the question - how fast, and with how much fuel does an airliner have to travel in order to traverse the whole Earth? How small does the world have to be to make that flight possible?

The Flat Earth movement also has the Bi-Polar maps and models. See the bottom
of this page: httpss://wiki.tfes.org/Flat_Earth_Maps

The Bi-Polar models were derived by the Flat Earth movement when the South Pole was discovered in the early 1900's and Antarctica was more fully explored. The Monopole model is the more general and popularized model because it appears in ENAG, and persists because independent access to Antarctica is difficult.

Bi-polar maps are even worse:

Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2019, 11:59:18 AM »
I just used distances given on Google Earth, a product you say you use "daily" and therefore must trust.
I don't know how they calculate distances, but I do know it is used by millions of people every day, including you, so if their data is inaccurate then you'd think that would have been noticed.
If you are now claiming that the distances are inaccurate then what is your basis for that? How they are calculated is irrelevant, what is relevant is whether they are correct.

It should be pretty clear that they did not send a little robot with a measuring wheel to go and measure the distance when you made the online request, nor have they ever done that. Next you should probably consider if anyone has ever done that. If you decide that no one has done that then we must be talking about something theoretical that has to do with how the latitude and longitude numbers are determined.
The distances Google claims between places are only theoretical until someone uses the system to get around. Luckily we have millions of people testing it every day, including you, and building confidence in their data.
It seems you trust Google Maps data enough to use it every day to get you around but you don't trust it when it shows the earth isn't flat.
It's good, confirmation bias, isn't it?  ;)
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2019, 12:01:20 PM »
- If all distances and continental positions are unknown, then why proudly post an inaccurate map on your site, if you are a movement founded in opposition to inaccurate maps?
The website presents several possible maps in the maps section. The truth is for you, the interested investigators on this forum, to research.
Several possible maps? In all Flat Earth maps, the distance between Australia and Argentina is shown to span almost the entire Earth. Hence the question - how fast, and with how much fuel does an airliner have to travel in order to traverse the whole Earth? How small does the world have to be to make that flight possible?

The Flat Earth movement also has the Bi-Polar maps and models. See the bottom
of this page: httpss://wiki.tfes.org/Flat_Earth_Maps

The Bi-Polar models were derived by the Flat Earth movement when the South Pole was discovered in the early 1900's and Antarctica was more fully explored. The Monopole model is the more general and popularized model because it appears in ENAG, and persists because independent access to Antarctica is difficult.

Bi-polar maps are even worse:
https://i.imgur.com/N7Qq3R7.jpg

Can you provide some evidence for the flight times? According to my sources they just make them up.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travel-truths/Are-airlines-exaggerating-flight-times-so-theyre-never-late/

Quote
Are you being told the truth about flight times?

Passenger jets have never been more advanced. With Boeing’s 787 Dreamliner, introduced in 2011, leading the charge, and new models like the 737 MAX and the Airbus A320neo following in its wake, the aircraft on which we travel are safer, smoother, quieter and more fuel efficient than ever.

They also appear perfectly capable of flying faster than their predecessors. Just last month the low-cost carrier Norwegian issued a celebratory press release after one of its 787 Dreamliners whizzed from John F. Kennedy International Airport in New York to London Gatwick in five hours and 13 minutes, setting a new transatlantic record for a subsonic plane. That’s three minutes quicker than the previous best time set by British Airways in January 2015.

So why, record-breaking feats notwithstanding, are airlines claiming it takes longer and longer to fly from A to B?

That’s according to research by OAG, the aviation analyst, carried out for Telegraph Travel. It found that over the last couple of decades, despite new technology, scheduled flight times - ie. how long an airline estimates it will take to complete a journey - have actually increased by as much as 50 per cent.

Looking at Europe’s busiest international route, for example - Heathrow to Dublin - it found that in 1996 the vast majority of airlines published a scheduled flight time of between 60 and 74 minutes. Fast forward 22 years and almost all claim the journey takes between 75 and 89 minutes, while a handful bank on 90 minutes or more.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 12:04:20 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2019, 12:17:42 PM »
Can you provide some evidence for the flight times? According to my sources they just make them up.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travel-truths/Are-airlines-exaggerating-flight-times-so-theyre-never-late/
Except, one could fake a longer flight by taking a longer route, but one could not fake a shorter flight over such a long distance.
- For example: you board a plane in Sydney, look at your watch, you land in Melbourne. The evil pilot and GPS system could make an 800 km. trip last 16 hours... BUT they cannot make a 40,000 kilometer trip last 16 hours!  ;) They can't make a 40,000 km. trip, period.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 12:20:34 PM by fishcake »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2019, 12:31:27 PM »
Can you provide some evidence for the flight times? According to my sources they just make them up.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travel-truths/Are-airlines-exaggerating-flight-times-so-theyre-never-late/
Except, one could fake a longer flight by taking a longer route, but one could not fake a shorter flight over such a long distance.
- For example: you board a plane in Sydney, look at your watch, you land in Melbourne. The evil pilot and GPS system could make an 800 km. trip last 16 hours... BUT they cannot make a 40,000 kilometer trip last 16 hours!  ;) They can't make a 40,000 km. trip, period.

Planes make unscheduled fuel stops all the time.

Annoyed by a fuel stop on your direct flight?

Nonstop Flights Stop for Fuel

Air travel: So-called nonstop flights now stop for fuel

The airliners basically do anything they want.

These discussions are basically like plotting a route across the city with Google Maps and then expecting that your Uber driver will take the route in the map, will not stop along the way, will travel at some assumed speed, and will get to the destination in the padded time. Those estimations are more a matter of theory than anything.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 12:35:28 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2019, 12:34:30 PM »
Can you provide some evidence for the flight times? According to my sources they just make them up.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travel-truths/Are-airlines-exaggerating-flight-times-so-theyre-never-late/
Except, one could fake a longer flight by taking a longer route, but one could not fake a shorter flight over such a long distance.
- For example: you board a plane in Sydney, look at your watch, you land in Melbourne. The evil pilot and GPS system could make an 800 km. trip last 16 hours... BUT they cannot make a 40,000 kilometer trip last 16 hours!  ;) They can't make a 40,000 km. trip, period.
Planes make unscheduled fuel stops all the time.
Annoyed by a fuel stop on your direct flight?
Nonstop Flights Stop for Fuel
Air travel: So-called nonstop flights now stop for fuel
The airliners basically do anything they want.
These discussions are basically plotting a route across the city with Google Maps and then expecting that your taxi will take the route in the map, will not stop along the way, are traveling at some assumed speed, and will get to the destination in the estimated time. Those estimations are emore a matter of theory than anything.
You did not understand what I was saying. This isn't about artificially prolonging a flight, but about shortening it. A fuel stop would prolong a flight. It should be impossible to travel the whole span of the Earth on a single non-stop airliner flight in 16 hours, but there you go - people travel from Sydney to Buenos Aires, and from LA to Sydney all the time.
Or are you saying that every single transcontinental flight refuels over the Ocean?
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 12:49:09 PM by fishcake »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2019, 01:04:39 PM »
Again, there is a big difference between theory and practice.

It took this person 5 days to get from Argentina to New Zealand: https://www.roamingaroundtheworld.com/surviving-5-day-flight/

If one were to spend $1500 a seat on the "direct route" that was offered to that person, what makes you think that they wouldn't go ahead and make an unscheduled fuel stop in California anyway, like the articles say that they make such stops at the drop of a hat?

Replace Argentina to Australia with California to Australia or wherever, for a Bi-Polar model, and the same applies.

Airliners lie all the time, and do what they want. Flights are delayed, rerouted, stops added, in flight and before flight.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 01:18:32 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2019, 01:21:40 PM »
Again, there is a big difference between theory and practice.
It took this person 5 days to get from Argentina to New Zealand: https://www.roamingaroundtheworld.com/surviving-5-day-flight/
If one were to spend $1500 a seat on the "direct route," what makes you think that they wouldn't go ahead and make an unscheduled fuel stop in California anyway like the above path, and like the articles say that they do at the drop of a hat?
Replace Argentina to Australia with California to Australia or wherever, for a Bi-Polar model and the same applies.
Airliners lie all the time, and do what they want. Flights are delayed, rerouted, stops added, in flight and before flight.
But then you have to explain how this 30-40,000 kilometer flight only takes 16 hours, and how they can refuel without the passengers noticing. Are the airlines also lying that the plane travels at 800 km/h, but it actually travels at mach 2, like a missile? Out of curiosity, have you traveled to Australia?

Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2019, 01:30:45 PM »
P.S. Tom, since you personally favor the Bipolar model (you offered it to explain the dilemma), you must believe that Sydney and LA are the two farthest major cities on Earth. According to the bipolar map, the distance is almost 90% that of Earth itself. But the direct flights are even shorter (13-14 hours), and they're even more frequent. If you look out the window during such a flight, you would only see ocean. But this would mean that the plane is taking an ever longer route around the continents - (>50,000 kilometers!) and has no possibility of expanding its range, aside from mid-air refueling!

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #35 on: January 10, 2019, 01:34:47 PM »
P.S. Tom, since you personally favor the Bipolar model (you offered it to explain the dilemma), you must believe that Sydney and LA are the two farthest major cities on Earth. According to the bipolar map, the distance is almost 90% that of Earth itself. But the direct flights are even shorter (13-14 hours), and they're even more frequent. If you look out the window during such a flight, you would only see ocean. But this would mean that the plane is taking an ever longer route around the continents - (>50,000 kilometers!) and has no possibility of expanding its range, aside from mid-air refueling!

The Bi-Polar map is for example purposes only, of the Bi-Polar model. No one made it to be based on anything. In fact, it's just a random projection that someone found of an Earth that had two poles like was described in the older flat earth books.

Whether it's that flight that is rerouted or another, the matter is unknown at present time.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 01:40:31 PM by Tom Bishop »

Offline edby

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Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2019, 01:36:53 PM »
If you decide that no one has done that then we must be talking about something theoretical that has to do with how the latitude and longitude numbers are determined.
Why is the measurement of latitude and longitude relevant in any way to distances between points?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2019, 01:38:36 PM »
If you decide that no one has done that then we must be talking about something theoretical that has to do with how the latitude and longitude numbers are determined.
Why is the measurement of latitude and longitude relevant in any way to distances between points?

Latitude and longitude is base don a spherical coordinate system and assumes a globe.

Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #38 on: January 10, 2019, 01:40:04 PM »
The Bi-Polar map is for example purposes only. No one made it to be based on anything.
You just gave it as an example of the correct way of solving this dilemma. You chose the bipolar map, because the other maps don't work out for this problem, so let's stick to it:

- How can a cross-Earth flight from LA to Sydney only take 13 hours, and only take place over the ocean (thus having to go around the continents)?
- How come the passengers don't notice the refueling, and how come they can only see ocean out the window?

Offline edby

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Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #39 on: January 10, 2019, 01:40:20 PM »
Airliners lie all the time, and do what they want. Flights are delayed, rerouted, stops added, in flight and before flight.
Well perhaps but do passengers lie all the time? Normally they complain when a flight is delayed.

I or may family have flown some of the flights we are talking about. When the actual journey time exceeds the advertised time, it is always noted. I always make a note of time from take off to landing.