#### fishcake

• 24
##### Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« on: January 07, 2019, 01:17:18 PM »
Here is the dilemma:
- Let's assume the diameter of a flat Earth is 40,000 kilometers, and this is the map which accurately represents it: https://wiki.tfes.org/images/4/43/Map.png
- This would make the distance between Australia and Argentina roughly 30,000 kilometers
- Direct flights from Australia to Argentina take roughly 16 hours, which would mean the airplane is traveling at almost 1900 km/h. How is this possible for an airliner?
- If the diameter of Earth is actually smaller, thus making a shorter flight possible at airliner speeds, then how come ground travel on shorter distances takes so long? For example, traveling between New Mexico and Kansas (via the 333 km. Tucumcari-Liberal highway) takes exactly 3 hours if you travel at 111 km/h. If the Earth were three times smaller, shouldn't that trip take 1 hour?

#### JCM

• 156
##### Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2019, 06:38:06 PM »
For the first question, I will predict the reasons for the discrepancy will be the following:
1. There is no official FE map and no accepted official model.
2. The exact location of the continents isn’t known.
3. FET has no funding to make an accurate map.
4. Those flights don’t really exist.
5. Those planes are flying on jet streams and actually are flying much faster then north of the Equator.

Those answers won’t satisfy you I expect.  Your second question is a nonstarter as I find little argument the maps are incorrect above the Equator.

#### fishcake

• 24
##### Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2019, 06:34:46 AM »
1-3. This is the official Flat Earth Wiki map. If it is so inaccurate that even the positions of the continents are uncertain, why post it at all? Isn't this as inaccurate as posting a rotating globe on the site?
4. Which flights don't exist? Sydney to Buenos Aires in particular, or no flights exist at all? Because if Argentina and Australia are actually close, why fake a flight at all?
5. Point 5 kind of contradicts point 4. You are saying there are flights, but they are assisted by jet streams. But jet streams go in one direction - shouldn't the flight in the opposite direction be twice as slow?

#### AllAroundTheWorld

• 3912
##### Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2019, 08:00:30 AM »
1-3. This is the official Flat Earth Wiki map. If it is so inaccurate that even the positions of the continents are uncertain, why post it at all? Isn't this as inaccurate as posting a rotating globe on the site?
I think the claim is that the map is an indication of how the earth is and not necessarily accurate but this is a bit slippery, it means that any criticism can be met with claims that the map isn't accurate. You can't debunk something which doesn't exist. Luckily, you can use Google Maps and the distances given on there between cities to demonstrate that no flat earth map is possible as I did here:

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=11747.0

It's notable that there has been no FE response apart from Lackey not understanding what I've done.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

#### fishcake

• 24
##### Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2019, 08:45:06 AM »
@AllAroundTheWorld - I'm surprised that they can't come up with an explanation, even a crazy one. Is Cuba really close to Florida, or is it on the other corner of the Earth? Is Europe close or far away? Where is Australia? Where is Africa? How do we know it's not 50 miles away from New York? Aren't they curious?

P.S.I'm still interested to hear the response about jet streams. If they can speed up an airplane in one direction, how come they don't slow it down on the return flight?
« Last Edit: January 08, 2019, 08:46:59 AM by fishcake »

#### edby

• 1214
##### Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2019, 10:17:02 AM »
P.S.I'm still interested to hear the response about jet streams. If they can speed up an airplane in one direction, how come they don't slow it down on the return flight?
I asked this question a month or two ago. Generally it's rare to get a reply from flat-earthers, indeed a part of the methodology is not to give replies, as I understand.

As you say, the jet stream can only plausibly work in one direction.

#### shootingstar

##### Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2019, 10:28:03 AM »
Without wishing to sound too naïve with all this, the whole flat Earth idea seems to have been done the wrong way round.  Surely such basic factors as the shape, location and size of the continents are things you would research first then ask yourself whether the figures and data you get back from that are consistent with what you would expect to get if the Earth was spherical as per popular belief. If not then you would start to examine other shapes for the Earth including a flat plane. If the data matched better for a flat plane then that would be a good basis for building a flat Earth theory.

Changes in the shape and position of the continents have been mapped very accurately by geologists using satellite data from GPS studying the behaviour of the continental plate boundaries. That information in turn can provide valuable clues about earthquake forecasts.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2019, 10:31:38 AM by shootingstar »

#### fishcake

• 24
##### Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2019, 12:32:31 PM »
I've heard "flat-Earthers have an explanation for everything, but they've given up on this question. It seems no amount of mental gymnastics can explain something like this. Like, "why aren't you curious if Africa isn't actually right next to Florida?" Why aren't you interested in really measuring distances between geographic points?" "We don't have money to make a map?" Is there anything they know at all? Is there anything they are curious about?

#### totallackey

##### Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2019, 12:36:47 PM »
1-3. This is the official Flat Earth Wiki map. If it is so inaccurate that even the positions of the continents are uncertain, why post it at all? Isn't this as inaccurate as posting a rotating globe on the site?
I think the claim is that the map is an indication of how the earth is and not necessarily accurate but this is a bit slippery, it means that any criticism can be met with claims that the map isn't accurate. You can't debunk something which doesn't exist. Luckily, you can use Google Maps and the distances given on there between cities to demonstrate that no flat earth map is possible as I did here:

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=11747.0

It's notable that there has been no FE response apart from Lackey not understanding what I've done.
You arbitrarily draw pretty kindergarten pictures of different color circles and x's on a whiteboard (mind you with absolute ZERO reference as to how anyone could actually verify scale) plus openly admit your ineptitude in formation and then have the temerity and gall to write I have no understanding of what you've done?

Simply writing when you actually do something might be a better place for you to start.

#### AllAroundTheWorld

• 3912
##### Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2019, 12:48:12 PM »
1-3. This is the official Flat Earth Wiki map. If it is so inaccurate that even the positions of the continents are uncertain, why post it at all? Isn't this as inaccurate as posting a rotating globe on the site?
I think the claim is that the map is an indication of how the earth is and not necessarily accurate but this is a bit slippery, it means that any criticism can be met with claims that the map isn't accurate. You can't debunk something which doesn't exist. Luckily, you can use Google Maps and the distances given on there between cities to demonstrate that no flat earth map is possible as I did here:

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=11747.0

It's notable that there has been no FE response apart from Lackey not understanding what I've done.
You arbitrarily draw pretty kindergarten pictures of different color circles and x's on a whiteboard (mind you with absolute ZERO reference as to how anyone could actually verify scale) plus openly admit your ineptitude in formation and then have the temerity and gall to write I have no understanding of what you've done?

Simply writing when you actually do something might be a better place for you to start.

I've replied to this in the other thread. But just to reiterate, the fact you think my circles are drown in an arbitrary way shows you don't understand what I have done.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

#### shootingstar

##### Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2019, 12:56:19 PM »
Quote
I've heard "flat-Earthers have an explanation for everything, but they've given up on this question. It seems no amount of mental gymnastics can explain something like this

This takes me back to the point I made about earthquake shadow zones providing fairly convincing evidence for the Earth being round.  I provided details of the thickness of the various layers of the Earths internal structure and asked Tom to do the same for the flat Earth hypothesis for comparisons sake.  He never came back to me on that. If that is because they don't know the thickness of the various layers then fair enough but I couldn't see how you can get such shadow zones from parallel layers making up a flat surface.

#### totallackey

##### Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2019, 12:56:52 PM »
1-3. This is the official Flat Earth Wiki map. If it is so inaccurate that even the positions of the continents are uncertain, why post it at all? Isn't this as inaccurate as posting a rotating globe on the site?
I think the claim is that the map is an indication of how the earth is and not necessarily accurate but this is a bit slippery, it means that any criticism can be met with claims that the map isn't accurate. You can't debunk something which doesn't exist. Luckily, you can use Google Maps and the distances given on there between cities to demonstrate that no flat earth map is possible as I did here:

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=11747.0

It's notable that there has been no FE response apart from Lackey not understanding what I've done.
You arbitrarily draw pretty kindergarten pictures of different color circles and x's on a whiteboard (mind you with absolute ZERO reference as to how anyone could actually verify scale) plus openly admit your ineptitude in formation and then have the temerity and gall to write I have no understanding of what you've done?

Simply writing when you actually do something might be a better place for you to start.

I've replied to this in the other thread. But just to reiterate, the fact you think my circles are drown in an arbitrary way shows you don't understand what I have done.
*drawn (since you have shown such a high regard for exactness!)

Yeah, pretending they're not (i.e., no verifiable way to demonstrate scale) doesn't help you here and it did not help you in your original thread.

Even you gotta admit it is hard to understand BS.

Quite likely all you will do is to reply with the time worn, "NO U!", so allow me to reiterate.

NO VERIFIABLE SCALE on your OP.

Simply stating pixels isn't enough Copernicus.

Got it?
« Last Edit: January 08, 2019, 12:59:17 PM by totallackey »

#### edby

• 1214
##### Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2019, 03:31:10 PM »
Even you gotta admit it is hard to understand BS.
I understood his work perfectly. If you are going to be rude, at least give some reasonable explanation of why you think it's wrong, or BS or whatever.

#### iamcpc

• 824
##### Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2019, 04:59:06 PM »
1-3. This is the official Flat Earth Wiki map. If it is so inaccurate that even the positions of the continents are uncertain, why post it at all? Isn't this as inaccurate as posting a rotating globe on the site?
4. Which flights don't exist? Sydney to Buenos Aires in particular, or no flights exist at all? Because if Argentina and Australia are actually close, why fake a flight at all?
5. Point 5 kind of contradicts point 4. You are saying there are flights, but they are assisted by jet streams. But jet streams go in one direction - shouldn't the flight in the opposite direction be twice as slow?

You are not the first to ask such questions and you are not the last. How can the distances/flight times/travel times/shipping times/cartography on the wiki map be possible when they don't match the distances/flight times/travel times/shipping times/modern cartography.

This has been discussed so many times. I was also VERY curious about it. I got all the responses from a flight time superthread. (Pick any one of your rebuttals from the list below) Here's a link:

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.0

-Because the angles of a triangle drawn between three flight paths = 180 degrees the earth is flat.
-Because the angles of a triangle drawn between three flight paths = 179.99984 degrees the earth is slightly concave.
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg121615#msg121615

-Distances between two cities which are far apart is unknown
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg121996#msg121996

-Flight GPS systems are inaccurate
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122030#msg122030
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122441#msg122441

-GPS systems are based on a round earth therefore will give measurements/distances which support a round earth.
-Aircraft are using instruments which assume round earth coordinates which will support a round earth.
-There is no flat earth map.
-The difference in flight time is based off of flight speed which has yet to be proven.
-The airplane speed and range is based off round systems therefore will give speeds and ranges which support a round earth
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122359#msg122359

-plane speed measurements are unreliable
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122364#msg122364

-there are no flat earth flight programs, systems, GPS etc because the flat earth aircraft navigation fund is nonexistent.
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122369#msg122369

-Triangulation as a measurement of distance can be inaccurate because the "known" locations used for triangulation are based on a round earth system
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122410#msg122410

-there are almost an infinite number of continental configurations (If a flight disproves flat earth continental configuration 23985729387592873 you then need to test continental configuration 23985729387592874).
-Groundspeed measurement instruments use a round earth coordinate system therefore will give results which support a round earth
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122411#msg122411

-proof is needed that mile measurements on a highway are accurate
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122423#msg122423

-Google maps is based on a round earth coordinate system
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122433#msg122433

-any navigation system based on longitude and latitude is a round earth navigation system (which is most likely used in all navigation systems)
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122655#msg122655

-any map, navigation, or measurement system which uses Latitude and Longitude in any way is inaccurate
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122664#msg122664

-That's not the map of the earth (a variant of there is no map of the earth)
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122672#msg122672
« Last Edit: January 08, 2019, 05:01:18 PM by iamcpc »

#### totallackey

##### Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2019, 05:04:53 PM »
Even you gotta admit it is hard to understand BS.
I understood his work perfectly. If you are going to be rude, at least give some reasonable explanation of why you think it's wrong, or BS or whatever.
I have written a reasonable explanation of why it is wrong.

#### AllAroundTheWorld

• 3912
##### Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2019, 05:13:44 PM »
Even you gotta admit it is hard to understand BS.
I understood his work perfectly. If you are going to be rude, at least give some reasonable explanation of why you think it's wrong, or BS or whatever.
I have written a reasonable explanation of why it is wrong.
You haven't. You've just said some things about screen resolution and I have explained why that is irrelevant.
Come on, dude, I even checked the image quickly myself and showed you a screenshot of how you can check yourself.
Someone else has just replied to the post saying they got similar results using the same method a different tool.
And it has also been suggested to you that you can draw this out on paper using a pencil and protractor. You will get the same results.
If you think there is an error in my work then you are free to repeat it and post your findings.
It is telling that you have so far shown no inclination to do so...
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

#### geologyboy

• 3
##### Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2019, 08:34:32 PM »
For the first question, I will predict the reasons for the discrepancy will be the following:
1. There is no official FE map and no accepted official model.
2. The exact location of the continents isn’t known.
3. FET has no funding to make an accurate map.
4. Those flights don’t really exist.
5. Those planes are flying on jet streams and actually are flying much faster then north of the Equator.

Those answers won’t satisfy you I expect.  Your second question is a nonstarter as I find little argument the maps are incorrect above the Equator.

In reply to point 4. I lived in Australia and personally knew people who flew to South Africa and back. That flight time only works o  a ball earth.

#### fishcake

• 24
##### Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2019, 07:53:18 AM »
You are not the first to ask such questions and you are not the last. How can the distances/flight times/travel times/shipping times/cartography on the wiki map be possible when they don't match the distances/flight times/travel times/shipping times/modern cartography.
This has been discussed so many times. I was also VERY curious about it. I got all the responses from a flight time superthread. (Pick any one of your rebuttals from the list below) Here's a link:
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.0
While the links you posted actually prove the Round Earth theory from another angle, they do not address the question asked in this topic: "what about speed and scale". This isn't about the accuracy of GPS data. It's a simpler question:
- If the Earth is 40,000 km. in diameter, how can an airliner travel such a distance with so little fuel, at mach 2 speeds, in so little time? (Australia-Argentina or Australia-South Africa)
- If the Earth is smaller than 40,000 km, how come land travel between states isn't shorter as well?
- If jet streams speed up an airplane in one direction, how come they don't slow it down on the return flight?
- If all distances and continental positions are unknown, then why proudly post an inaccurate map on your site, if you are a movement founded in opposition to inaccurate maps?

(bonus question) - Why isn't the flat-Earth movement at all curious about the actual position of the cities and continents? Why are they so resigned to self-admitted ignorance, instead of pushing to investigate the truth? You can measure distances without GPS at all - just get in your cars and boats, and start traveling between cities. Confirm each other's findings and start mapping the world. Be curious.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 07:56:46 AM by fishcake »

#### Tom Bishop

• Zetetic Council Member
• 8036
• Flat Earth Believer
##### Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2019, 10:56:26 AM »
- If all distances and continental positions are unknown, then why proudly post an inaccurate map on your site, if you are a movement founded in opposition to inaccurate maps?

The website presents several possible maps in the maps section. The truth is for you, the interested investigators on this forum, to research.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

#### AllAroundTheWorld

• 3912
##### Re: Distance from Australia to Argentina dilemma
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2019, 11:01:58 AM »
- If all distances and continental positions are unknown, then why proudly post an inaccurate map on your site, if you are a movement founded in opposition to inaccurate maps?

The website presents several possible maps in the maps section. The truth is for you, the interested investigators on this forum, to research.
I have, in the thread in the other section about the FE Map. My research demonstrates that no flat earth map is possible - if the distances on Google Maps are accurate.
You say you use Google Maps daily so you clearly trust it's accuracy. I'm not clear then why I'm unable to map 4 points out on a flat map.
I note there has been no FE response other than lackey throwing in some red herrings about screen resolution and refusing to do any checking on my work or do his own.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis