shootingstar

Solar spotlight
« on: January 05, 2019, 12:48:37 AM »
FE wiki tells us that the Sun shines down on the flat Earth like a spotlight. Illuminating part of the surface to create day time.

How does that work then when the Sun is spherical and emits light over its whole surface. Why the sudden 'cut off' where daylight ends?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Solar spotlight
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2019, 01:31:45 AM »
What makes you think you can see forever through the atmoplane of the earth, and infinitely across the earth? More to the point, if you can't see the sun, it can't see you.

The rays of the sun are projected onto the atmoplane, and you will see the apparent sun when the sun is close enough and the circular area of light passes over you.

See the Magnification of the Sun at Sunset article in the Wiki and the Cause of Sunrise and Sunset chapter in Earth Not a Globe.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 01:41:57 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline stack

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Re: Solar spotlight
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2019, 06:54:39 AM »
What makes you think you can see forever through the atmoplane of the earth, and infinitely across the earth? More to the point, if you can't see the sun, it can't see you.

The rays of the sun are projected onto the atmoplane, and you will see the apparent sun when the sun is close enough and the circular area of light passes over you.

I'm not sure it would work like that. Take a spotlight, for example. I can be standing in darkness yet still see the beams and the source. Like this:

Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

shootingstar

Re: Solar spotlight
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2019, 09:53:06 AM »
Quote
The rays of the sun are projected onto the atmoplane, and you will see the apparent sun when the sun is close enough and the circular area of light passes over you.

This is fascinating Tom.... so there are two Suns that we can see?  What is the difference between the real Sun and the apparent Sun then?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Solar spotlight
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2019, 12:10:09 PM »
What makes you think you can see forever through the atmoplane of the earth, and infinitely across the earth? More to the point, if you can't see the sun, it can't see you.

The rays of the sun are projected onto the atmoplane, and you will see the apparent sun when the sun is close enough and the circular area of light passes over you.

I'm not sure it would work like that. Take a spotlight, for example. I can be standing in darkness yet still see the beams and the source. Like this:

http://www.tannerhiggin.com/summer11eng1c/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/147_spotlight_mine.png

If there is too much atmosphere between you and those light sources, when you are in the dark area and far from the sun, that might not apply. You are talking about hundreds or thousands of miles of atmosphere. The atmosphere is not perfectly transparent and builds up with distance.

Of interest, Wise has an interesting investigation on the other website that, during the day, not all of the light may not be coming from the direction of the sun, and has several examples.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=66236.msg2110544#msg2110544

Whether it is some sort of perspective illusion, I could not say.

There is also this: https://forum.cosmoquest.org/showthread.php?9059-For-those-who-claim-shadows-must-be-parallel

Like your image, and what wise is showing, the light seems to be coming across a band of space in the sky.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 12:55:45 PM by Tom Bishop »

shootingstar

Re: Solar spotlight
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2019, 04:15:28 PM »
Clarify what you mean by this Tom.

Quote
The rays of the sun are projected onto the atmoplane

In your answers you are mentioning both atmoplane and atmosphere. So which is it?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Solar spotlight
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2019, 04:27:02 PM »
Clarify what you mean by this Tom.

Quote
The rays of the sun are projected onto the atmoplane

In your answers you are mentioning both atmoplane and atmosphere. So which is it?

It's the same.

shootingstar

Re: Solar spotlight
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2019, 04:32:35 PM »
And the difference between the real Sun and the apparent Sun?

Re: Solar spotlight
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2019, 05:56:53 PM »
What makes you think you can see forever through the atmoplane of the earth, and infinitely across the earth? More to the point, if you can't see the sun, it can't see you.

The rays of the sun are projected onto the atmoplane, and you will see the apparent sun when the sun is close enough and the circular area of light passes over you.

I'm not sure it would work like that. Take a spotlight, for example. I can be standing in darkness yet still see the beams and the source. Like this:

http://www.tannerhiggin.com/summer11eng1c/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/147_spotlight_mine.png

If there is too much atmosphere between you and those light sources, when you are in the dark area and far from the sun, that might not apply. You are talking about hundreds or thousands of miles of atmosphere. The atmosphere is not perfectly transparent and builds up with distance.

Of interest, Wise has an interesting investigation on the other website that, during the day, not all of the light may not be coming from the direction of the sun, and has several examples.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=66236.msg2110544#msg2110544

Whether it is some sort of perspective illusion, I could not say.

There is also this: https://forum.cosmoquest.org/showthread.php?9059-For-those-who-claim-shadows-must-be-parallel

Like your image, and what wise is showing, the light seems to be coming across a band of space in the sky.
Just for the record your first photo set is a terrible one to attempt to base an argument on for FE. Google Earth street view? Really? Have you ever walked around in street view? They use fisheye lenses to capture greater than a 360 degree view around the car/vehicle so a computer can then stitch together and attempt to smooth out the images. There tend to be distortions that only get more so as you move away from the center of frame. Heck, I've seen distortions of known objects in the middle of the frame. This seems to be a poor choice to try and base such an analysis on.

For your second it definitely doesn't show anything like "the light seems to be coming across a band of space in the sky." That would produce shadows that would get wider as you got towards the top. Even FE shouldn't be ready to agree with what is shown in this image. There's only a single sun ever visible in the sky. This suggest 7 different suns, each one affecting just 1 of the posts. This photo is quite likely doctored. The shadows don't even appear to maintain the same ratio to the height of their post, suggesting the light shining on each one is at a different height as well.

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Offline Bad Puppy

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Re: Solar spotlight
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2019, 06:08:21 PM »
First, if the sun is being projected onto the atmosphere, how far into it is it being projected? What properties does this projected surface have that enables projection the sun to be displayed without distortion at a specific position in the atmosphere?

Second, if it's just a projection and not the actual sun, how do you explain the ability to track earth-bound CMEs and other solar emissions from that projection directly to their destination? Projections have no mass, can't produce radiation.
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shootingstar

Re: Solar spotlight
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2019, 08:25:44 PM »
What I really want to know is whether FE hypothesis accepts that the Sun is a sphere with light emitted with largely equal intensity from all parts of the surface. If that is the case then how it can be considered to act like a spotlight is currently beyond me.

Re: Solar spotlight
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2019, 08:30:59 PM »
What I really want to know is whether FE hypothesis accepts that the Sun is a sphere with light emitted with largely equal intensity from all parts of the surface. If that is the case then how it can be considered to act like a spotlight is currently beyond me.
That puzzled me for a long time but it was then clarified. The sun sets due to perspective, so when the perspective lines merge at a finite distance the sun merges into the horizon, so you can see the 32 mile sun but not the THREE THOUSAND MILE gap between the earth and the sun.
That might be straw manning but I’m pretty sure that is how Tom explained it once albeit not quite in those words.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

shootingstar

Re: Solar spotlight
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2019, 08:56:59 PM »
That I have to say is a very interesting hypothesis. To visualise how that might work I am trying to work out how large the daylight area actually is for something as bright as the Sun to appear to disappear as the angle between the observer and the Sun gets vanishingly small. I immediately want to ask in that case how far away is the horizon for someone at sea level?  At the moment it seems like an analogy with the frog trying to cross the river by only jumping half the distance each time.  The angle between the Sun and the horizon could never be less than zero degrees when seen from a flat plane. Therefore at the very least you would always have twilight and no true darkness.

The way the FE hypothesis works you could never create this sort of scenario given the size and distance of the Sun in reality.  To make it work you are having to majorly change both the size and the distance of the Sun both of which have been measured very accurately.  The distance to Venus (brightest object in the sky after the Sun and Moon) was measured in the 1960s by radar. Once we knew the distance to Venus we could then work out the distance of the Sun from Earth by simple trig. That disproved the 3000 mile distance between the Sun and the Earth that FE hypothesis claims. Finally knowing how big something looks (angular size on the sky) from a certain distance then makes it easy to work out the true size of the Sun.



« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 09:12:41 PM by shootingstar »

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Offline stack

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Re: Solar spotlight
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2019, 11:03:27 PM »
If there is too much atmosphere between you and those light sources, when you are in the dark area and far from the sun, that might not apply. You are talking about hundreds or thousands of miles of atmosphere. The atmosphere is not perfectly transparent and builds up with distance.

Given some altitude and a good telescope I should be able to see sunlight elsewhere on the flat earth even though I am in darkness. From that standpoint, I don't see how a spotlight sun can work.

Of interest, Wise has an interesting investigation on the other website that, during the day, not all of the light may not be coming from the direction of the sun, and has several examples.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=66236.msg2110544#msg2110544

Whether it is some sort of perspective illusion, I could not say.

There is also this: https://forum.cosmoquest.org/showthread.php?9059-For-those-who-claim-shadows-must-be-parallel

Like your image, and what wise is showing, the light seems to be coming across a band of space in the sky.

I remember Wise's thread. As others have pointed out, he was using google streetview which is a bunch of distorted lens images composited together from multiple cameras/angles over time. Hardly a sound empirical observation.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 09:20:44 AM by stack »
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Solar spotlight
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2019, 03:26:59 PM »
Wise's photos are valid. Some of those shadows are pointing in different relation to the street or sidewalk. It doesn't matter if the picture is a wide-angle lense or not. A wide-angle lense isn't going to make a shadow that's pointing towards the street to run along the sidewalk or vice versa.

This is caused by a fisheye lens?


« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 03:48:18 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Bad Puppy

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Re: Solar spotlight
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2019, 04:21:46 PM »
Wise's photos are valid. Some of those shadows are pointing in different relation to the street or sidewalk. It doesn't matter if the picture is a wide-angle lense or not. A wide-angle lense isn't going to make a shadow that's pointing towards the street to run along the sidewalk or vice versa.

This is caused by a fisheye lens?



They're pointing in different directions in relation to the camera.  You don't even need shadows to do it.  Just draw a bunch of equidistant lines of the same angle on a piece of paper.  Put a peg at the front of each line, and take a picture.  What do you see?
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Re: Solar spotlight
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2019, 05:48:54 PM »
This is caused by a fisheye lens?


No, it’s caused by perspective.
You often cite railway tracks appearing to merge so you do understand that parallel lines appear to converge by perspective.

Your understanding of perspective is so weird, you think it can cause the sunset when it can’t and you then forget about it when looking at photos like this.

As Bad Puppy suggests, you can test this easily yourself with a piece of paper. Draw some parallel lines and note that from an angle they appear to converge.

I don’t see how this “problem”, if it was one, would be any more explicable with the FE sun.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

shootingstar

Re: Solar spotlight
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2019, 06:24:03 PM »
Here we have the lines to show how the perspective works.  Note the post that is in vertical line with the photographer shows no shadow because from his perspective the shadow is directly behind the post.


Re: Solar spotlight
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2019, 07:23:45 PM »
This literally took me 5 minutes.
Parallel lines drawn on a piece of paper. From top down:



From an angle. Now they're converging


If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Solar spotlight
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2019, 07:31:42 PM »
Unfortunately that looks nothing like the image.