Offline iamcpc

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Re: Flat Earth Map
« Reply #60 on: April 17, 2019, 10:14:55 PM »
Interesting. So do you believe that feelings, even feelings that you feel very strongly, can be wrong?

of course.

Also, do you believe that you can determine what is true based on how many people believe it? Cause there are hundreds of religions.

No. I think you can determine how convincing is based on how many people believe it.

Do you practice whichever religion has the largest following?

No. Christianity is the most popular religion. The bible has verses in which God is telling people to murder babes and children.


Samuel 15:

 Now therefore, heed the voice of the words of the Lord. 2 Thus says the Lord of hosts: ‘I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he ambushed him on the way when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and attack[a] Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’ ”


God ordered the muder of men, women, infant, and nursing child. I believe the God that created this universe did no such thing.



I guess my point is that with 7 billion people, you can always find some group that believes just about anything. Does the fact that people believe something make it true?



not at all

If you had to write down a perfect list of criteria that, if followed, would basically guarantee something was true, what would your list be?

One thing that I've learned is that there is no such thing as truth. You can claim to me that the TRUTH is that 1 + 1 = 2. I can say that is not the truth but a lie.

You can show me thousands of mathematical papers proving that 1 + 1 = 2 and I can call them all lies or fabricated or wrong.

You can give me one apple, then give me a second apple, and point out that I now have two apples and I can tell you that's just what you're programmed to believe by the person (or people) behind this.

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Offline markjo

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Re: Flat Earth Map
« Reply #61 on: April 18, 2019, 12:38:58 AM »
You can give me one apple, then give me a second apple, and point out that I now have two apples and I can tell you that's just what you're programmed to believe by the person (or people) behind this.
Or, you can accept that numbers are simply symbols that we assign certain meanings to, just like any other language.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline QED

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Re: Flat Earth Map
« Reply #62 on: April 18, 2019, 11:37:50 AM »
Interesting. So do you believe that feelings, even feelings that you feel very strongly, can be wrong?

of course.

Also, do you believe that you can determine what is true based on how many people believe it? Cause there are hundreds of religions.

No. I think you can determine how convincing is based on how many people believe it.

Do you practice whichever religion has the largest following?

No. Christianity is the most popular religion. The bible has verses in which God is telling people to murder babes and children.


Samuel 15:

 Now therefore, heed the voice of the words of the Lord. 2 Thus says the Lord of hosts: ‘I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he ambushed him on the way when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and attack[a] Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’ ”


God ordered the muder of men, women, infant, and nursing child. I believe the God that created this universe did no such thing.



I guess my point is that with 7 billion people, you can always find some group that believes just about anything. Does the fact that people believe something make it true?



not at all

If you had to write down a perfect list of criteria that, if followed, would basically guarantee something was true, what would your list be?

One thing that I've learned is that there is no such thing as truth. You can claim to me that the TRUTH is that 1 + 1 = 2. I can say that is not the truth but a lie.

You can show me thousands of mathematical papers proving that 1 + 1 = 2 and I can call them all lies or fabricated or wrong.

You can give me one apple, then give me a second apple, and point out that I now have two apples and I can tell you that's just what you're programmed to believe by the person (or people) behind this.

You lost me with your last paragraphs. There is no such thing as truth? What do you mean by truth?

My first name is Ryan. That is the truth. That is the name my momma gave me. How am I being programmed?

1+1=2 is a conspiracy? You are kinda an odd duck. These are more definitional things. We agree upon conventions so that communication becomes easier.

What are you trying to say here? That determinism is dead? That absolute knowledge is impossible? That everything is subjective?

Please clarify?
The fact.that it's an old equation without good.demonstration of the underlying mechamism behind it makes.it more invalid, not more valid!

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Re: Flat Earth Map
« Reply #63 on: April 18, 2019, 11:56:34 AM »
I heard about a funny (probably apocryphal) conversation between 2 teachers:

Teacher 1: "Well, you see, there is no absolute truth"
Teacher 2: "Really? That must make it hard for you to mark exam papers..."

Some things are not absolute truth: "The Beatles were the greatest musical group in history".
I hold that to be true, I have some pretty good evidence in terms of their popularity, critical success and influence...but it's a subjective opinion.
There is no objective measure of "greatest".

"Paris is the capital of France" - that is not subjective. It's a definition. France, a sovereign entity, have defined Paris as their capital.
Me claiming the capital is Marseilles doesn't make it so.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Flat Earth Map
« Reply #64 on: April 18, 2019, 05:36:25 PM »

You lost me with your last paragraphs. There is no such thing as truth? What do you mean by truth?

My first name is Ryan. That is the truth. That is the name my momma gave me. How am I being programmed?

1+1=2 is a conspiracy? You are kinda an odd duck. These are more definitional things. We agree upon conventions so that communication becomes easier.

What are you trying to say here? That determinism is dead? That absolute knowledge is impossible? That everything is subjective?

Please clarify?



My point is that no one can claim that anything is the TRUTH. You use your name as an example.

There is a person who has a mystery name.

He says that his name is Ryan and I say that his name is Albert.
His presents a birth certificate with the name Ryan on it. I claim that it is fabricated.
I present a birth certificate with the name Albert on it. He claims that it is fabricated.
Another person comes along and says we are both lying and the mystery man's name is Alex and he comes with his own birth certificate with the name Alex on it.
Now another person comes along and says he knows this mystery person and his name is Joseph.

What is the TRUTH?

I used the mathematical equation 1+1 = 2 because I believe that something of that nature is as close to TRUTH as we can come.

Yet, like the name thing, I can put the 1+1=2 person in a group of people all claiming different things about that equation and show that it's not the TRUTH that 1+1=2. It's just very widely accepted among a vast majority of the population, myself included.

Widely accepted by the vast majority of the population <> TRUTH.


Because there is no such thing as TRUTH things like courts don't go based on FACTS and TRUTHS they go based on evidence (which is not TRUTH) to try to show, beyond a reasonable doubt, that a person committed a crime. If they get a guilty verdict it does not mean that the person committed the crime. It means that a jury perceived the doubt as unreasonable (but there ALWAYS is doubt). I am of the belief that TRUTH has 0% doubt.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2019, 05:52:56 PM by iamcpc »

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Offline WellRoundedIndividual

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Re: Flat Earth Map
« Reply #65 on: April 18, 2019, 07:37:26 PM »
Here is a truth. Someone or something who has a username of iamcpc just made a post previous to mine. That is fact, evidence, and truth. Undeniable. 0% doubt.
BobLawBlah.

Re: Flat Earth Map
« Reply #66 on: April 18, 2019, 09:39:03 PM »
My point is that no one can claim that anything is the TRUTH.
Yes, they can. Anyone can.

The statement “My given first name is Ryan” has a truth value. It is either true or false.
You saying or believing it’s Albert doesn’t affect that truth value. You producing a document claiming something else doesn’t either. The truth is the truth regardless of your beliefs.

Not all statements have a truth value
“The Beatles were the greatest band ever”
Doesn’t. It is subjective. There is no objective measure of “greatness”. That’s why debates about music/films/sport are interesting, there is no definitive “true” answer.

Some statements have a truth value but it’s hard or impossible to determine:
“There is life elsewhere in the universe”.

That is either true or false. But we don’t know which. You may have an opinion as may I and the debate may be interesting but the honest answer right now is we don’t know. At some point in the future we might find out.



I used the mathematical equation 1+1 = 2 because I believe that something of that nature is as close to TRUTH as we can come.

Courts work on the basis of guilty “beyond reasonable doubt” because determining truth can be impossible. But that doesn’t mean there is no absolute truth on a matter. A person accused of a crime is either guilty or innocent. Determining which may be difficult but that doesn’t mean there is no absolute truth about which it is. It just means you don’t know the truth for certain. But truth exists independently of your beliefs and knowledge.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Flat Earth Map
« Reply #67 on: April 18, 2019, 11:17:39 PM »
My point is that no one can claim that anything is the TRUTH.
Yes, they can. Anyone can.
[/quote]

Claiming something is truth <> something being truth. They are totally different. I can claim my name is "Qr_%steatas" that does not make it TRUTH.

The statement “My given first name is Ryan” has a truth value. It is either true or false.
You saying or believing it’s Albert doesn’t affect that truth value. You producing a document claiming something else doesn’t either. The truth is the truth regardless of your beliefs.

One example of why a "my name is _______" statement is not TRUTH:

If I say my first name is "Qr_%steatas" it has no truth value whatsoever. It is not TRUTH. It is not FALSE. It is 100% unknown if that is my name or not.
If I say my first name is "Ryan" it has no truth value whatsoever. It is not TRUTH. It is not FALSE. It is 100% unknown if that is my name or not.


A second example of why a "my name is ___________" statement is not TRUTH
The statement “My given first name is Ryan” is not TRUTH. What if you were born and given the name Albert. Then, after being given the name Albert, were given up to adoption to someone who called you Ryan. You grew up without ever knowing of said adoption. Therefore if you claim your given name was Ryan and the doctor who delivered you said your name is Albert he signed your birth certificate which he presents who is telling the TRUTH?

I can easily say my name is something that it is not. If someone comes along and provides a photo ID, birth certificate, facebook page etc all showing that the person's name is Albert it is more likely that his name is Albert but still not TRUTH that his name is albert.


Not all statements have a truth value
“The Beatles were the greatest band ever”
Doesn’t. It is subjective. There is no objective measure of “greatness”. That’s why debates about music/films/sport are interesting, there is no definitive “true” answer.

There is no such thing as truth value. There is only a percentage of people who have accepted something.
80% of the earth's population have accepted that 1+1 =2
19% of the earth's population has never been taught any math and they live a hut with a dirt floor or in a jungle somewhere
1% of the earth's population has accepted that 1+1 <> 2


10% of the earth's population accepts that the Beatles were the greatest
50% of the earth's population accepts that some other band than the Beatles are the greatest
40% of the earth's population has never heard of the Beatles



Some statements have a truth value but it’s hard or impossible to determine:
“There is life elsewhere in the universe”.
That is either true or false. But we don’t know which. You may have an opinion as may I and the debate may be interesting but the honest answer right now is we don’t know. At some point in the future we might find out.

50% of the earth's population accepts that there is life elsewhere in the universe
50% of the earth's population accepts that there is no other life in the universe outside of Earth.
Where is the TRUTH value???







Courts work on the basis of guilty “beyond reasonable doubt” because determining truth can be impossible. But that doesn’t mean there is no absolute truth on a matter. A person accused of a crime is either guilty or innocent. Determining which may be difficult but that doesn’t mean there is no absolute truth about which it is. It just means you don’t know the truth for certain. But truth exists independently of your beliefs and knowledge.

My argument is that determining TRUTH is ALWAYS impossible. Instead of talking in terms of TRUTH we should talk in percentage of people who have accepted something.

If 12 jurors accept someone is guilty and they are all on the jury at the time then the person is found guilty. It's not TRUTH that the person is guilty just that 100% of a random sampling of 12 people were able to be persuaded to accept that the doubts about the person's guilt were unreasonable.

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Offline QED

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Re: Flat Earth Map
« Reply #68 on: April 19, 2019, 02:49:49 AM »

You lost me with your last paragraphs. There is no such thing as truth? What do you mean by truth?

My first name is Ryan. That is the truth. That is the name my momma gave me. How am I being programmed?

1+1=2 is a conspiracy? You are kinda an odd duck. These are more definitional things. We agree upon conventions so that communication becomes easier.

What are you trying to say here? That determinism is dead? That absolute knowledge is impossible? That everything is subjective?

Please clarify?



My point is that no one can claim that anything is the TRUTH. You use your name as an example.

There is a person who has a mystery name.

He says that his name is Ryan and I say that his name is Albert.
His presents a birth certificate with the name Ryan on it. I claim that it is fabricated.
I present a birth certificate with the name Albert on it. He claims that it is fabricated.
Another person comes along and says we are both lying and the mystery man's name is Alex and he comes with his own birth certificate with the name Alex on it.
Now another person comes along and says he knows this mystery person and his name is Joseph.

What is the TRUTH?

I used the mathematical equation 1+1 = 2 because I believe that something of that nature is as close to TRUTH as we can come.

Yet, like the name thing, I can put the 1+1=2 person in a group of people all claiming different things about that equation and show that it's not the TRUTH that 1+1=2. It's just very widely accepted among a vast majority of the population, myself included.

Widely accepted by the vast majority of the population <> TRUTH.


Because there is no such thing as TRUTH things like courts don't go based on FACTS and TRUTHS they go based on evidence (which is not TRUTH) to try to show, beyond a reasonable doubt, that a person committed a crime. If they get a guilty verdict it does not mean that the person committed the crime. It means that a jury perceived the doubt as unreasonable (but there ALWAYS is doubt). I am of the belief that TRUTH has 0% doubt.

Right, that’s what I thought. So you do not believe in absolute truth. Welcome to the club. Nothing can be absolutely known. When we talk about truth, we really mean that it is true to a reasonable standard of certainty. We then operate under the assumption that it is true, unless we find evidence which overturns it.

This is a reasonable approach to life in my opinion. It doesn’t mean we won’t sometimes be wrong, but at least we can make progress.

The other alternative is a position called hard solipsism - which is the logical dead end of insisting that something must be absolutely true before you will believe it to be true. That is a bad idea for you.

The hard solipsist does not know if reality is true, or if anything around him is real. Therefore, logically, his actions make no difference. He will kill, rape, torture, or do none of these things - because nothing is true. It does not matter. Including you. You do not matter.

Or

You can accept the reasonable position that things can be True to a reasonable standard. I exist. You exist. The world exists. Certain laws exist. Like 1+1=2.

Sure anyone can CLAIM endlessly that these things are not reasonably true. But folks claim all sorts of stupid shit. “Your name is TowelDuck.” That don’t mean my opinion is as valid as your driver’s license. Not all evidence is equal. Plus, there are mechanism set in place for evaluating whether shit people say is likely true. We call those mechanisms the scientific method. It is the most reliable method we have found to do this.

And every time I write “scientific method,” Pete acquires one more involuntary twitch.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2019, 02:54:37 AM by QED »
The fact.that it's an old equation without good.demonstration of the underlying mechamism behind it makes.it more invalid, not more valid!

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We try to represent FET in a model-agnostic way

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Re: Flat Earth Map
« Reply #69 on: April 19, 2019, 06:29:00 AM »
I think you guys are mixing up truth with your ability to discern the truth.
iamcpc asks:

Quote
50% of the earth's population accepts that there is life elsewhere in the universe
50% of the earth's population accepts that there is no other life in the universe outside of Earth.
Where is the TRUTH value???

The truth value is unknown but that doesn’t mean there isn’t one. Either there is life out there or there isn’t. Some people claim there absolutely must be, some people claim there absolutely can’t be. The fact is we don’t really know right now but there either is or there isn’t.
If there is then there is. It can’t be “true” for me and “false” for you. We can have different opinions but one of us must be wrong. The truth about it is absolute.

People debate whether we went to the moon. Well, we either did or we didn’t. Apollo 11 is a historical event which either occurred or it didn’t. Two people may disagree about that but, again, one of them is wrong. Armstrong either stepped on the moon or he didn’t, the truth of that can’t change from person to person.

Those sorts of truths are absolute even if it’s impossible to discern the truth absolutely. Things like who was the greatest musician / sportsman / actor are not absolute because there is no objective measure of “greatness”.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline QED

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Re: Flat Earth Map
« Reply #70 on: April 19, 2019, 10:03:20 AM »
I think you guys are mixing up truth with your ability to discern the truth.
iamcpc asks:

Quote
50% of the earth's population accepts that there is life elsewhere in the universe
50% of the earth's population accepts that there is no other life in the universe outside of Earth.
Where is the TRUTH value???

The truth value is unknown but that doesn’t mean there isn’t one. Either there is life out there or there isn’t. Some people claim there absolutely must be, some people claim there absolutely can’t be. The fact is we don’t really know right now but there either is or there isn’t.
If there is then there is. It can’t be “true” for me and “false” for you. We can have different opinions but one of us must be wrong. The truth about it is absolute.

People debate whether we went to the moon. Well, we either did or we didn’t. Apollo 11 is a historical event which either occurred or it didn’t. Two people may disagree about that but, again, one of them is wrong. Armstrong either stepped on the moon or he didn’t, the truth of that can’t change from person to person.

Those sorts of truths are absolute even if it’s impossible to discern the truth absolutely. Things like who was the greatest musician / sportsman / actor are not absolute because there is no objective measure of “greatness”.

I disagree that there is absolute truth on philosophical grounds. It is impossible to devise an experiment which can identify whether what you are experiencing is real, or if you are just a brain in a vat, and “reality” is an illusion imposed by an external agent (think The Matrix). Since this experiment cannot be performed, evidence does not exist which demonstrates absolute truth.

Despite this conundrum, I choose to believe that this is probably not the case, and reality does exist. It seems unlikely that the entire universe is a figment of my own brain. Nevertheless, there is no mechanism to prove this is actually true, so absolute knowledge is unattainable because reality is not verifiable.
The fact.that it's an old equation without good.demonstration of the underlying mechamism behind it makes.it more invalid, not more valid!

- Tom Bishop

We try to represent FET in a model-agnostic way

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Re: Flat Earth Map
« Reply #71 on: April 19, 2019, 11:21:55 AM »
All you’ve done there, QED, is repeat the assertion that we can’t know absolutely what the truth is. And I agree.
But I maintain that the truth exists independently of that.

If I tell you that outside your house there’s a lion who will eat you if you step out the door then that is either true or it isn’t. I can present all kinds of evidence for the lion and you may or may not accept that but ultimately the lion is either there or it isn’t. If the lion is there and you step outside the door then you’re going to get eaten no matter what you believe. Your belief about the lion and your ability to know absolutely the truth of whether the lion is there is independent of whether you’re going to get eaten by a bloody great lion if you go outside.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline QED

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Re: Flat Earth Map
« Reply #72 on: April 19, 2019, 01:08:23 PM »
All you’ve done there, QED, is repeat the assertion that we can’t know absolutely what the truth is. And I agree.
But I maintain that the truth exists independently of that.

If I tell you that outside your house there’s a lion who will eat you if you step out the door then that is either true or it isn’t. I can present all kinds of evidence for the lion and you may or may not accept that but ultimately the lion is either there or it isn’t. If the lion is there and you step outside the door then you’re going to get eaten no matter what you believe. Your belief about the lion and your ability to know absolutely the truth of whether the lion is there is independent of whether you’re going to get eaten by a bloody great lion if you go outside.

Ahh, I see your argument now. What you are really claiming is the existence of the three logical absolutes, and that these must exist independently of any thinking agent.

Yes, I use them as the fundamental pillar of truth - but they are unprovable. There is no experiment you can devise which could demonstrate that something does NOT have a well defined truth value - precisely because it may just be beyond our reach. Hence, we cannot demonstrate that the 3 are true, and must assume them. They are unfalsifiable.

A or not A. The first absolute.

Yes, a logical statement must have a truth value.

Really? How do you know? How can you rule out a third option.

Well, QED, what else could there be? Either A or not A. There IS no third option!

How do you know this, grasshopper?

Because I can’t think of one.

That is an argument from ignorance fallacy. 
The fact.that it's an old equation without good.demonstration of the underlying mechamism behind it makes.it more invalid, not more valid!

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We try to represent FET in a model-agnostic way

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Offline iamcpc

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Re: Flat Earth Map
« Reply #73 on: April 19, 2019, 02:55:14 PM »
The truth value is unknown but that doesn’t mean there isn’t one.

I disagree. In order to claim that something is TRUTH you have to know that it is TRUTH.

Here is a truth. Someone or something who has a username of iamcpc just made a post previous to mine. That is fact, evidence, and truth. Undeniable. 0% doubt.

"Someone or something who has a username of iamcpc just made a post previous to mine. "


That is not TRUTH.

Here's an example of one way that statement is FALSE:
We could be living in a simulation. There could be no post.


"Someone or something who has a username of iamcpc just made a post previous to mine. "
Here's an example of a second way that statement is FALSE:
Someone or something with a different username than IAMCPC could have made those posts and the website could have gotten hacked and the hacker replaced the real posters name with IAMCPC.

The TRUTH very well could be that no one with a username of iamcpc has ever posted on this forum.


If I tell you that outside your house there’s a lion who will eat you if you step out the door then that is either true or it isn’t. I can present all kinds of evidence for the lion and you may or may not accept that but ultimately the lion is either there or it isn’t. If the lion is there and you step outside the door then you’re going to get eaten no matter what you believe. Your belief about the lion and your ability to know absolutely the truth of whether the lion is there is independent of whether you’re going to get eaten by a bloody great lion if you go outside.

belief that there is a lion + perception that there is a lion <> TRUTH that there is a lion
It's IMPOSSIBLE for a human being to have any sort of ability to know absolutely the truth

What if you see a "lion" and it turns out to be a very large dog which looks like a lion? The TRUTH is not that there is a lion yet your belief and perception say there is a lion.





What if you are hallucinating? Then you "seeing" a "lion" is not TRUTH. The TRUTH is not that there is a lion yet your belief and perception say there is a lion.

What if you exist in a simulation? The TRUTH is that there is no "lion". The TRUTH is not that there is a lion yet your belief and perception say there is a lion.

What if it's not a lion but instead a lion which was bred with a tiger creating a liger? The TRUTH is not that there is a lion yet your belief and perception say there is a lion.  Google it. I would say they are real but that would be claiming to know a TRUTH.
I believe that it's highly possible that they are real. It's not a TRUTH that they are real.


« Last Edit: April 19, 2019, 04:06:06 PM by iamcpc »

Re: Flat Earth Map
« Reply #74 on: April 19, 2019, 05:25:47 PM »
A or not A. The first absolute.

Yes, a logical statement must have a truth value.

The conversation is maybe overshooting the epistemological requirements of a flat earth map, but since your nickname is QED, may I point you to this little theorem stating there exist true statements that aren't neither provable nor disprovable. It's due to Kurt Gödel, you can find it here: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/goedel-incompleteness/index.html
Quote from: Pete Svarrior
these waves of smug RE'ers are temporary. Every now and then they flood us for a year or two in response to some media attention, and eventually they peter out. In my view, it's a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

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Offline markjo

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Re: Flat Earth Map
« Reply #75 on: April 19, 2019, 06:01:41 PM »
The truth value is unknown but that doesn’t mean there isn’t one.

I disagree. In order to claim that something is TRUTH you have to know that it is TRUTH.
In a vain attempt to get this thread back on topic, would you be willing to accept the notion that, although not absolutely true, something can still accurate enough to be useful on a practical, day-to-day basis (as in accurate maps)?
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline QED

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Re: Flat Earth Map
« Reply #76 on: April 19, 2019, 08:26:50 PM »
A or not A. The first absolute.

Yes, a logical statement must have a truth value.

The conversation is maybe overshooting the epistemological requirements of a flat earth map, but since your nickname is QED, may I point you to this little theorem stating there exist true statements that aren't neither provable nor disprovable. It's due to Kurt Gödel, you can find it here: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/goedel-incompleteness/index.html

I am well aware of Gödel’s incompleteness theorem, yet I appreciate you referencing it.

What the theorem proves is that given a generalized logical system, it is always possible to identify logical statements subject to that system that do not have a well-defined truth value.

The classic example: this statement is false.

Hence you see, there is no condition on these statements regarding their truth value - indeed within the logical system the truth value is unknowable.
The fact.that it's an old equation without good.demonstration of the underlying mechamism behind it makes.it more invalid, not more valid!

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We try to represent FET in a model-agnostic way

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Re: Flat Earth Map
« Reply #77 on: April 19, 2019, 09:53:52 PM »
The truth value is unknown but that doesn’t mean there isn’t one.
I disagree.
Ironically, you disagreeing is irrelevant - that's exactly my point.

Quote
In order to claim that something is TRUTH you have to know that it is TRUTH.

Well, as I think we are agreeing you can't know what is true in the strictest sense. But as I keep saying, truth is absolute and is not affected by your or my or anyone else's beliefs.

It doesn't matter whether you believe there's a lion outside or whether you don't. It doesn't matter how certain you feel that there is or isn't.
The statement "there is a lion outside" has a truth value. The fact you don't know for certain what that value is doesn't matter.
If the statement is true then you're still getting eaten no matter what you believe.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline Jeppspace

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Re: Flat Earth Map
« Reply #78 on: April 19, 2019, 10:08:18 PM »
Despite this conundrum, I choose to believe that this is probably not the case, and reality does exist. It seems unlikely that the entire universe is a figment of my own brain. Nevertheless, there is no mechanism to prove this is actually true, so absolute knowledge is unattainable because reality is not verifiable.

The Smiths have been at you again. Don't worry mate, it's all very real.  8)
Anyone who would pay Richard Branson hundreds of thousands of dollars for the visual confirmation that we are all doomed to the unforgiving abyss of space, definitely deserves to know that.

: Infinite ¥ : Szion = : Plane

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Flat Earth Map
« Reply #79 on: April 19, 2019, 10:31:39 PM »
In a vain attempt to get this thread back on topic, would you be willing to accept the notion that, although not absolutely true, something can still accurate enough to be useful on a practical, day-to-day basis (as in accurate maps)?

I made my view on the existence of accurate maps of the earth very clear in this post:

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=11747.msg189455#msg189455




It doesn't matter whether you believe there's a lion outside or whether you don't. It doesn't matter how certain you feel that there is or isn't.
The statement "there is a lion outside" has a truth value. The fact you don't know for certain what that value is doesn't matter.
If the statement is true then you're still getting eaten no matter what you believe.

The statement "there is a lion outside" only has TRUTH if there is a lion outside. If there is no lion outside then that statement is FALSE. If we don't know if there is a lion outside and someone says "there is a lion outside" then if that statement is true or false is unknown.

truth is absolute and is not affected by your or my or anyone else's beliefs.

You can't say that TRUTH is absolute when no one has been able to present one thing which is TRUE. People presented things that very likely could be TRUE. They also have a very small likely hood of being FALSE.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2019, 10:39:33 PM by iamcpc »