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Offline QED

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Re: Flat Earth Map
« Reply #40 on: April 11, 2019, 10:04:49 PM »

What they are (or are not) based on is a moot point. If they are based on a giant pyramid, egg, sphere, or oblate spheroid does not change the accuracy of the following statement:

There are accurate maps of the earth used and accepted by tens or hundreds of millions of of people every single day in which the map of the earth is represented as a FLAT plane.

I am presently looking at a picture of a cat on my phone. That picture is flat, therefore all cats are in fact flat planes.

I have an instruction manual for putting together a new bookshelf. But it is the wrong one! My bookshelf is supposed to be a 3 dimensional object, but these instructions are on a flat piece of paper! I don’t want a flat bookcase!

I have a map of Kilimanjaro, which I have used when climbing it. That map is flat. Whhaaaaaat?!?! Kilimanjaro wasn’t flat!! It’s a mountain!!?!

You are an odd duck.

Never in my quote did I say that because the map represents the earth as flat that the earth is flat. I understand that paper is a 2d Medium and because of that many maps represent the are they are mapping as a flat plane.

I specifically left the shape of the earth out of it. The shape of the earth and a map of the earth being represented as a flat plane on a map are not mutually exclusive



The earth is a sphere or oblate spheroid AND there are accurate maps of the earth used and accepted by tens or hundreds of millions of of people every single day in which the map of the earth is represented as a FLAT plane.

The earth is a cube AND there are accurate maps of the earth used and accepted by tens or hundreds of millions of of people every single day in which the map of the earth is represented as a FLAT plane.

The earth is a pyramid AND there are accurate maps of the earth used and accepted by tens or hundreds of millions of of people every single day in which the map of the earth is represented as a FLAT plane.


Notice how the shape of the earth has no effect on if accurate maps of the earth exist where the earth is represented as a flat plane??

I even specifically said this to make the point that i'm making no claim about the shape of the earth:


What they are (or are not) based on is a moot point. If they are based on a giant pyramid, egg, sphere, or oblate spheroid does not change the accuracy of the following statement:







Do you see the problem?
HINT: Look up the size of Greenland. Then look up the size of Africa...

Those maps have an interactive adjusting scale so if you fill the map with Greenland and fill the map with Africa you can CLEARLY see that Greenland is much smaller than Africa.

Okay, fair enough. Why bother with the statement at all then?

If you are not attempting to make an inference, then why are you talking?
The fact.that it's an old equation without good.demonstration of the underlying mechamism behind it makes.it more invalid, not more valid!

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Offline iamcpc

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Re: Flat Earth Map
« Reply #41 on: April 12, 2019, 12:50:59 PM »

Okay, fair enough. Why bother with the statement at all then?

If you are not attempting to make an inference, then why are you talking?

I bother with the statement because it's a very popular claim among the flat earth community that either there is no map of the earth or there is no accurate map of the earth. Such a claim, in an age where BILLIONS of people are able to use maps to navigate the earth, is baffling to me. I feel like that claim SEVERELY weakens any credibility the different flat earth models have scraped together.

If the FE community wont accept google maps because it represent the earth as an interactive globe then there are dozens, if not hundreds, of other maps which represent the earth as a flat plane. Why can't those be accepted?

In addition the most popular FE map looks like a flat circle with ice around the perimeter. I strongly believe, based on personal observations made while traveling, that a flat circle model fails miserably at corroborating these observations. I believe the south pole does exist. In the FE flat circle map it does not exist at all.

Re: Flat Earth Map
« Reply #42 on: April 12, 2019, 01:15:42 PM »
If the FE community wont accept google maps because it represent the earth as an interactive globe then there are dozens, if not hundreds, of other maps which represent the earth as a flat plane. Why can't those be accepted?
I have explained why. Because they are all projections. In the example I gave you see Greenland as much bigger than Africa. And yes, if you look at them individually you can see the reality of the relative sizes but if you look at them together then you can't. Because any projection distorts reality. This projection does retain sizes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gall%E2%80%93Peters_projection

But then the shapes are distorted. The fundamental problem is that representing the surface of a sphere perfectly on a flat plane is impossible.
Something has to give.
And why do we need projections? Because we live on a globe.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline QED

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Re: Flat Earth Map
« Reply #43 on: April 12, 2019, 02:32:31 PM »

Okay, fair enough. Why bother with the statement at all then?

If you are not attempting to make an inference, then why are you talking?

I bother with the statement because it's a very popular claim among the flat earth community that either there is no map of the earth or there is no accurate map of the earth. Such a claim, in an age where BILLIONS of people are able to use maps to navigate the earth, is baffling to me. I feel like that claim SEVERELY weakens any credibility the different flat earth models have scraped together.

If the FE community wont accept google maps because it represent the earth as an interactive globe then there are dozens, if not hundreds, of other maps which represent the earth as a flat plane. Why can't those be accepted?

In addition the most popular FE map looks like a flat circle with ice around the perimeter. I strongly believe, based on personal observations made while traveling, that a flat circle model fails miserably at corroborating these observations. I believe the south pole does exist. In the FE flat circle map it does not exist at all.

I see. I am glad you think the South Pole exists.

The reason FEers cannot accept the plethora of flat maps is because doing so would invalidate FET. You see, they are leading the data, not trying to find the most accurate model.

The thought process is like this:

1. The earth needs to be flat.
2. We need a map of the flat earth.
3. Flat maps based on RE science show Alaska and Asia on opposite sides of the world.
4. This is a problem, because airplanes can go from California to Asia without crossing over North America, the Atlantic, and Europe.
5. Hence, we can’t use those maps, and instead must try to invent a map which is flat but allows global earth travel to be possible.

This is why so many FE maps are oddly distorted, and also why FEers try to deny records of airplane flight durations and paths. It is the only way they can lead data into the conclusion they want to be true.
The fact.that it's an old equation without good.demonstration of the underlying mechamism behind it makes.it more invalid, not more valid!

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Offline iamcpc

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Re: Flat Earth Map
« Reply #44 on: April 12, 2019, 02:47:36 PM »
The reason FEers cannot accept the plethora of flat maps is because doing so would invalidate FET. You see, they are leading the data, not trying to find the most accurate model.

It's been my experience that the reason that the FE community can't accept a map or model is because the individual beliefs about their own individual flat earth model vary so greatly. As an example:

1. I had several people tell me that the earth is a flat infinite plane. Anything that shows the earth with an edge or end is instantly rejected.
2. Some people believe there is no ice wall and that some sort of dome/firmament is at the edge of the flat disk earth. Any map with an ice wall is instantly rejected.
3. I had a few people who had a more biblical flat earth model say that Jerusalem is at the very center of the flat earth. Any map not depicting this is instantly rejected.
4. According to one person this was the most accurate map of the earth based on a very specific set of flight times (ignoring flights to and from the round earth southern hemisphere because they are fake). He would reject any map which is different than this:

5. The same person from number 4 also debunked his own map by claiming that, because japan has more seismic activity, it is on the edge of the earth.


I believe, based on my personal experiences, that only about 40% of the entire flat earth community believes in a flat disk, ice wall, no dome, no firmament, north pole center model. At this forum I believe the number is closer to 70-80% because the community is less friendly to alternate models.

Even though a flat earth model such as Bing maps would be much more widely accepted among the round earth community the flat circle model will never go away.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2019, 02:51:29 PM by iamcpc »

Re: Flat Earth Map
« Reply #45 on: April 13, 2019, 05:19:57 PM »
Distances on Google Maps are consistent with GPS ones, and GPS existence itself is not denied by fes. Being made of numbers (no optical illusions, no conspiracies), distances should be the method of preference to actually prove the geometrical property of being flat. Amusingly enough, Robotham did not touch this topic in his Earth not a globe.
Quote from: Pete Svarrior
these waves of smug RE'ers are temporary. Every now and then they flood us for a year or two in response to some media attention, and eventually they peter out. In my view, it's a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Flat Earth Map
« Reply #46 on: April 15, 2019, 03:49:12 PM »
Distances on Google Maps are consistent with GPS ones, and GPS existence itself is not denied by fes. Being made of numbers (no optical illusions, no conspiracies), distances should be the method of preference to actually prove the geometrical property of being flat. Amusingly enough, Robotham did not touch this topic in his Earth not a globe.

It may not be denied by the society as a whole but I've seen  several posts providing evidence that GPS is inaccurate, fake, or deliberately misleading




Here's some examples:
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122030#msg122030
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122441#msg122441
« Last Edit: April 15, 2019, 03:51:34 PM by iamcpc »

Re: Flat Earth Map
« Reply #47 on: April 15, 2019, 04:40:01 PM »
It has been said a numerous number of times that the google map distances are not correct. Therefore, going by google maps would be the wrong thing to do. The idea of google maps is just another way of people covering lies over the eyes of people believing that the world is not round.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Flat Earth Map
« Reply #48 on: April 15, 2019, 05:18:26 PM »
.... several posts providing evidence that GPS is inaccurate, fake, or deliberately misleading
Here's some examples:
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122030#msg122030
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122441#msg122441

Cannot be all three. If it's inaccurate and/or misleading, it cannot be fake. If it's fake, then debating whether it's inaccurate or misleading has no meaning.
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Pete Svarrior "We are not here to directly persuade anyone ... You mistake our lack of interest in you for our absence."

Tom Bishop "We are extremely popular and the entire world wants to talk to us. We have better things to do with our lives than have in depth discussions with every single curious person. You are lucky to get one sentence dismissals from us"

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Flat Earth Map
« Reply #49 on: April 15, 2019, 05:21:17 PM »
It has been said a numerous number of times that the google map distances are not correct. Therefore, going by google maps would be the wrong thing to do. The idea of google maps is just another way of people covering lies over the eyes of people believing that the world is not round.

Which maps, then? Do you accept UK Ordnance Survey as correct? Other national surveying organisations?
==============================
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Pete Svarrior "We are not here to directly persuade anyone ... You mistake our lack of interest in you for our absence."

Tom Bishop "We are extremely popular and the entire world wants to talk to us. We have better things to do with our lives than have in depth discussions with every single curious person. You are lucky to get one sentence dismissals from us"

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Flat Earth Map
« Reply #50 on: April 15, 2019, 05:30:42 PM »
.... several posts providing evidence that GPS is inaccurate, fake, or deliberately misleading
Here's some examples:
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122030#msg122030
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122441#msg122441

Cannot be all three. If it's inaccurate and/or misleading, it cannot be fake. If it's fake, then debating whether it's inaccurate or misleading has no meaning.

yes it can. If person A says that it's inaccurate, person B says it's misleading, person C says it was made by round earth systems with the specific intent to return round earth numbers instead of accurate numbers then it's all three.

Re: Flat Earth Map
« Reply #51 on: April 15, 2019, 08:01:32 PM »

It may not be denied by the society as a whole but I've seen  several posts providing evidence that GPS is inaccurate, fake, or deliberately misleading

I do not promote either Google Maps or the GPS system, but there is no way around computing distances for creating a map. Secondly, I do understand that GPS distances will have a (possibly deliberate) error, but to disguise a plane as a sphere is a blatant distortion that is light years more obvious than "someone on the Internet believes GPS to be inaccurate". I say this because I believe that looking for a fe map looks like a crucial task in destroying the globe.
Quote from: Pete Svarrior
these waves of smug RE'ers are temporary. Every now and then they flood us for a year or two in response to some media attention, and eventually they peter out. In my view, it's a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

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Offline stack

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Re: Flat Earth Map
« Reply #52 on: April 15, 2019, 10:15:21 PM »
.... several posts providing evidence that GPS is inaccurate, fake, or deliberately misleading
Here's some examples:
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122030#msg122030
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.msg122441#msg122441

Cannot be all three. If it's inaccurate and/or misleading, it cannot be fake. If it's fake, then debating whether it's inaccurate or misleading has no meaning.

yes it can. If person A says that it's inaccurate, person B says it's misleading, person C says it was made by round earth systems with the specific intent to return round earth numbers instead of accurate numbers then it's all three.

What evidence is there that google maps/GPS is fake or purposefully misleading in those threads or anywhere? I can buy into an accuracy issue here in there. But that is completely different than outright fakery. I've driven coast to coast in the US twice and I'll say, my GPS was extremely accurate. Maybe I just got lucky and avoided Google Map's nefarious plot to conceal the true shape of the earth.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Flat Earth Map
« Reply #53 on: April 16, 2019, 02:38:47 PM »
What evidence is there that google maps/GPS is fake or purposefully misleading in those threads or anywhere? I can buy into an accuracy issue here in there. But that is completely different than outright fakery. I've driven coast to coast in the US twice and I'll say, my GPS was extremely accurate. Maybe I just got lucky and avoided Google Map's nefarious plot to conceal the true shape of the earth.


Some claims are made more based on faith, feeling, or observation. I don't feel the Earth hurtling through space in an infinite fall around the sun therefore that is not what is happening.


I have presented VERY strong evidence that there is an accurate map of the earth yet, it's VERY common among the community, to have the belief that there is no accurate map of the earth.




An issue here is that if you looking for something on the internet you will find it. After a simple "GPS is a lie" google search I find these:



« Last Edit: April 16, 2019, 02:41:09 PM by iamcpc »

Re: Flat Earth Map
« Reply #54 on: April 16, 2019, 03:13:19 PM »
I don't feel the Earth hurtling through space in an infinite fall around the sun therefore that is not what is happening.
I can't see bacteria therefore they don't exist?
Come on, dude. There have been threads about this. The whole idea of "seeing is believing" or in this case "feeling is believing" is flawed.
You can do the maths and work out how much force you should feel because of earth's rotation. Yes there are other movements too but the important thing in what you'd feel is acceleration, not speed.
If you're on a plane and you walk up the aisle you can't feel you're moving at hundreds of miles an hour. If you jump you land back in the same spot, you don't shoot to the back of the plane because you retain the momentum of the plane. If you jumped and the plane suddenly accelerated or broke then you'd land in a different spot.
A common FE attack on RE is "people at the equator are hurtling round at a 1000 miles an hour". Yes, but the angular rotation - which is the important thing here - is one revolution a day.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline markjo

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Re: Flat Earth Map
« Reply #55 on: April 16, 2019, 05:51:13 PM »
Some claims are made more based on faith, feeling, or observation. I don't feel the Earth hurtling through space in an infinite fall around the sun therefore that is not what is happening.
Do you feel the earth hurtling upwards through space, constantly accelerating at a rate of 9.8 m/s2?  Or have you spent your entire life acclimating to the motions of the earth so that you don't notice the movement?
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline QED

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Re: Flat Earth Map
« Reply #56 on: April 16, 2019, 06:02:55 PM »
What evidence is there that google maps/GPS is fake or purposefully misleading in those threads or anywhere? I can buy into an accuracy issue here in there. But that is completely different than outright fakery. I've driven coast to coast in the US twice and I'll say, my GPS was extremely accurate. Maybe I just got lucky and avoided Google Map's nefarious plot to conceal the true shape of the earth.


Some claims are made more based on faith, feeling, or observation. I don't feel the Earth hurtling through space in an infinite fall around the sun therefore that is not what is happening.


I have presented VERY strong evidence that there is an accurate map of the earth yet, it's VERY common among the community, to have the belief that there is no accurate map of the earth.




An issue here is that if you looking for something on the internet you will find it. After a simple "GPS is a lie" google search I find these:





I think this approach may not always steer you towards truth. For example, when I am on an airplane, I definitely do not feel myself moving at hundreds of mph.

As another example, there are some pretty cool optical illusions that completely confuse the brain. In fact, they confuse our brain even when we know that it’s happening.

I guess my point is that human senses are great, but they have limits. And sometimes they are completely wrong. So if I was to base my beliefs only on my senses, well, I would be guaranteed wrong a lot of the time. Not all phenomena in the Universe can be senses by human organs.

Out of curiosity, how would you reconcile the limitations of your senses? Do you take a strict view - that unless you personally perceive it, you don’t believe it?

Also, we know that our feelings are sometimes wrong. Would you trust your feeling over hard objective evidence?
The fact.that it's an old equation without good.demonstration of the underlying mechamism behind it makes.it more invalid, not more valid!

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Offline iamcpc

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Re: Flat Earth Map
« Reply #57 on: April 16, 2019, 06:23:07 PM »
Out of curiosity, how would you reconcile the limitations of your senses? Do you take a strict view - that unless you personally perceive it, you don’t believe it?

I believe that things are real and do exist that are beyond our perception. I'm unable to perceive carbon dioxide but I believe that it does exist.

Also, we know that our feelings are sometimes wrong. Would you trust your feeling over hard objective evidence?

Me personally no. Hard evidence > feelings. But in this case, there is both hard evidence, and strong feelings based on hundreds of personal real life observations and experiences that lead me to the claim that there are accurate maps of the earth. How is it possible, in the day and age when hundreds of millions of people use a map of the earth for accurate navigation every year, to claim that no map of the earth exists??

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Offline stack

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Re: Flat Earth Map
« Reply #58 on: April 16, 2019, 07:44:22 PM »
An issue here is that if you looking for something on the internet you will find it. After a simple "GPS is a lie" google search I find these:

No doubt about that. There are already a flood of conspiracy theories across the web about the Notre Dame fire and it hasn't even been 24 hours. But just b/c this is the case, you wind up with the videos that you posted. Completely bereft of any practical evidence.

In one, the robot narrator's complaint is about GPS service going into Tijuana and how Anderson Cooper is a fraud. Really hard hitting evidence of a world-wide shape of the earth conspiracy. Absolute garbage.
Then a 1946 Ma-Bell Telephone infomercial about telecommunications cables to Microwave towers. Like zero enhancements/efficiencies have been made in the field of communication transmissions since the year after WWII ended. Again, absolute garbage.

If these are the types of presentations of 'evidence' that the FE 'community' hangs their hats on, I really don't know what to say. I'm not saying this is your evidence. I get it. But without a heightened level of confirmation bias/intense conspiratorial leanings, it's almost unimaginable that any FEr would die on the hill of these types of videos. Sadly, many do.

If I were an FEr I would embrace these technologies and figure out how they work on a flat earth rather dismiss them as fakery. I'd throw EA at how they rotate above the earth, or something like that. The evidence that maps work and satellite tech exists is just too overwhelming.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

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Offline QED

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Re: Flat Earth Map
« Reply #59 on: April 16, 2019, 08:02:38 PM »
Out of curiosity, how would you reconcile the limitations of your senses? Do you take a strict view - that unless you personally perceive it, you don’t believe it?

I believe that things are real and do exist that are beyond our perception. I'm unable to perceive carbon dioxide but I believe that it does exist.

Also, we know that our feelings are sometimes wrong. Would you trust your feeling over hard objective evidence?

Me personally no. Hard evidence > feelings. But in this case, there is both hard evidence, and strong feelings based on hundreds of personal real life observations and experiences that lead me to the claim that there are accurate maps of the earth. How is it possible, in the day and age when hundreds of millions of people use a map of the earth for accurate navigation every year, to claim that no map of the earth exists??

Interesting. So do you believe that feelings, even feelings that you feel very strongly, can be wrong?

Also, do you believe that you can determine what is true based on how many people believe it? Cause there are hundreds of religions. Do you practice whichever religion has the largest following?

Also, about finding stuff on the internet, I found this:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/apr/07/conspiracy-theory-paranoia-aliens-illuminati-beyonce-vaccines-cliven-bundy-jfk

I guess my point is that with 7 billion people, you can always find some group that believes just about anything. Does the fact that people believe something make it true?

If you had to write down a perfect list of criteria that, if followed, would basically guarantee something was true, what would your list be?
The fact.that it's an old equation without good.demonstration of the underlying mechamism behind it makes.it more invalid, not more valid!

- Tom Bishop

We try to represent FET in a model-agnostic way

- Pete Svarrior