*

Offline Pete Svarrior

  • e
  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 8865
  • (◕‿◕✿)
    • View Profile
    • The Flat Earth Society
Re: The Dark Side of the Moon
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2019, 10:11:00 AM »
You do say quite a lot without really saying anything.
Likewise, my friend.

Your question should not be answered, because it's not a fair question. You're asking us to substantiate a negative without providing any evidence to the positive other than "lots of people said it".

This is a reversal of burden of proof, and we shouldn't be engaging it. I can't tell others what to do, but I'm not falling for it, personally.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
Follow the Flat Earth Society on Facebook and Twitter!


*mic stays stationary and earth accelerates upwards towards it*

Re: The Dark Side of the Moon
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2019, 10:36:25 AM »
Quote
Unless you are standing on the far side of the moon in a space suit looking at the landed equipment, how can it be proven?
I have never physically seen with my own eyes a polar bear, or visited the Grand Canyon or the Great Barrier Reef but i don't need anybody to 'prove' to me that they exist.  Same principle isn't it.
There’s a good article about this here

http://theconversation.com/-to-reason-with-flat-earthers-it-may-not-help-though-95160

FE operates in the sceptical context.
How do we know the earth is round?
Well, lots of reasons but let’s look at one: we have photos of earth from space. Lots of them. That kills FE stone dead. So FE swings into sceptical context: Question everything. How do you know the photos are real?
Note that no actual evidence of fakery is presented. Lots of supposition, some out of context quotes from NASA about Photoshop and composite photos, a dash of misunderstanding about why photos appear inconsistent and voila - they have introduced an element of doubt.

But you can do that about anything. I’m told that kangaroos live wild in Australia. How do I know? I’ve never been there. Maybe all the people who tell me this are lying, maybe all the photos and film taken of them in the wild are really taken elsewhere. And so on.

The telling thing is this sceptical context is used very selectively - only for things which prove a globe earth. Rowbotham’s book, full of anecdotal “evidence”, is accepted without question.

That’s why I started this thread to see if there was any FE response or thoughts about this. And we see the sceptical context at work. Lackey and Pete basically asking how we can prove this is real, knowing that is impossible as it is impossible for pretty much any news story if you operate in the sceptical context. But no actual evidence of fakery is provided or felt to be needed. It contradicts FE, ergo it’s false until proven otherwise to a standard of proof impossible to achieve. It’s a mix of confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance.

I’m still waiting for an actual FE response giving their actual thoughts about this. Do they even have any? If one believes in a flat earth and was serious about seeking the truth of the matter then every space mission is another opportunity to examine one’s beliefs.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Re: The Dark Side of the Moon
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2019, 12:10:31 PM »
You do say quite a lot without really saying anything.
Likewise, my friend.

Your question should not be answered, because it's not a fair question. You're asking us to substantiate a negative without providing any evidence to the positive other than "lots of people said it".

This is a reversal of burden of proof, and we shouldn't be engaging it. I can't tell others what to do, but I'm not falling for it, personally.
The question in the initial post was maybe unfair as it presupposed the FE stance on this, so let me try again.

China claim to have landed a spacecraft on the far side of the moon. What is the FE reaction to this claim?

Is that a fair question? China have just claimed something which potentially affects FET. To have no reaction to that at all would be bizarre.
The 3 possibilities I see are:

1) China have done what they claim - ergo the earth is round.

2) China have faked the whole thing - I'm not sure that has any implications for the shape of the earth, if this hasn't happened then I'm not sure how an event not happening adds weight to either side of the FE/RE debate. You could say they have had to fake it because the earth is flat but I'd suggest it's equally plausible they've done it for the kudos the achievement had brought them.

3) China have done what they claim but have done so despite the earth being flat - I'm not quite sure how that's possible given the FE model presented here and without them discovering in the process that the earth was flat (unless they did and are suppressing that for some reason) but I've listed it as a possibility for completeness.

I'm not claiming to have proof of veracity of their claim, I'm not expecting you to have proof of fakery. This isn't a trap or a trick question.
But asking whether there is any thoughts from FE people about a claim from China which potentially has an impact on FE is a reasonable one.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Re: The Dark Side of the Moon
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2019, 12:11:16 PM »
So your not asking for proof of anything?
*You’re
Correct, I apologize for the misspelling.
Proof is not possible on either side.
Correct.
I can’t prove the Chinese have landed a craft on the moon. You can’t prove they haven’t.
Correct.
So let’s look at the evidence.
Great.
Quote
Do you have any evidence the events the article depicts have actually taken place?
Firstly, you could ask that about any news article. Unless you personally witness the events what evidence do you have that they happened?
Some.
The evidence here is that every major news source has reported this as something that really happened.
And there is documented history of every news source as being responsible for making false reports, lying about specific incidents and happenings, and just plain old making shit up.
I’ve not heard anyone casting any doubt on the claim from the Chinese.
I am.
Photos have been provided from the craft, I’ve not heard any claims that those are faked.
I've not heard claims regarding legitimacy either.
The technology to get craft in orbit around the moon has existed since the space race, the Russians (crash) landed Luna 2 on the moon in 1959. There have been multiple manned and unmanned missions since from multiple countries since.
As reported by major media sources who have already been found to be liars in other instances.
So I have no reason to suspect this has been faked. Do you have any reason to and, if so, do you have any evidence of specific fakery in this instance?
Yes, I have reason to find the whole shebang suspect but I find all news to be suspect, nothing more or less in this case.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 12:51:47 PM by totallackey »

Re: The Dark Side of the Moon
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2019, 12:14:12 PM »
Quote
Unless you are standing on the far side of the moon in a space suit looking at the landed equipment, how can it be proven?


I have never physically seen with my own eyes a polar bear, or visited the Grand Canyon or the Great Barrier Reef but i don't need anybody to 'prove' to me that they exist.  Same principle isn't it.
This type of equivalence is simply ridiculous.

These things of which you write exist here on flat earth.

Re: The Dark Side of the Moon
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2019, 12:26:38 PM »
Quote
Unless you are standing on the far side of the moon in a space suit looking at the landed equipment, how can it be proven?
I have never physically seen with my own eyes a polar bear, or visited the Grand Canyon or the Great Barrier Reef but i don't need anybody to 'prove' to me that they exist.  Same principle isn't it.
There’s a good article about this here

http://theconversation.com/-to-reason-with-flat-earthers-it-may-not-help-though-95160

FE operates in the sceptical context.
How do we know the earth is round?
Well, lots of reasons but let’s look at one: we have photos of earth from space. Lots of them. That kills FE stone dead. So FE swings into sceptical context: Question everything. How do you know the photos are real?
Note that no actual evidence of fakery is presented. Lots of supposition, some out of context quotes from NASA about Photoshop and composite photos, a dash of misunderstanding about why photos appear inconsistent and voila - they have introduced an element of doubt.

But you can do that about anything. I’m told that kangaroos live wild in Australia. How do I know? I’ve never been there. Maybe all the people who tell me this are lying, maybe all the photos and film taken of them in the wild are really taken elsewhere. And so on.

The telling thing is this sceptical context is used very selectively - only for things which prove a globe earth. Rowbotham’s book, full of anecdotal “evidence”, is accepted without question.

That’s why I started this thread to see if there was any FE response or thoughts about this. And we see the sceptical context at work. Lackey and Pete basically asking how we can prove this is real, knowing that is impossible as it is impossible for pretty much any news story if you operate in the sceptical context. But no actual evidence of fakery is provided or felt to be needed. It contradicts FE, ergo it’s false until proven otherwise to a standard of proof impossible to achieve. It’s a mix of confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance.

I’m still waiting for an actual FE response giving their actual thoughts about this. Do they even have any? If one believes in a flat earth and was serious about seeking the truth of the matter then every space mission is another opportunity to examine one’s beliefs.
Nearly everything you write here is more of the, "equivalence," BS, plus totally characterizing my responses in this thread in an illegitimate fashion. I have not once categorized your responses using the phrase "proof."

Your initial query was,"Do you have any evidence of fakery?" My response was," Do you have any evidence of reality?

And yes, I do want to know if any photos are legit. Not only do I want to know if the photos are legit, I also want to know the photos were taken of the object which is claimed to be depicted in that photo. I have yet to see any evidence of this being the case. I see claims a plenty but no real evidence.

Things on the flat earth, like kangaroos, can be examined because these are things to which we have real opportunity of access. The supposed "dark side," of the moon? You cannot write for a fact that it even exists, let alone someone or somebodies capable of visiting it and photographing it. You cannot even state for a fact that what is printed in the paper is in fact a photo and not a painting.

News media LIE and PRINT LIES and have done so for a very long time (a lengthy body of evidence) and that is unequivocal FACT.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 12:43:07 PM by totallackey »

shootingstar

Re: The Dark Side of the Moon
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2019, 12:28:54 PM »
Sorry if my attempt at creating an analogy seems ridiculous to you. It was my weak attempt at illustrating a point. That point being that it seems to me that some people won't believe something exists or is true unless they are physically standing in front of it.


It is obviously physically impossible to go and stand on the far side of the Moon in front of the landing craft that the Chinese have put there so what how else apart from announcing it and showing photos taken by it are they supposed to prove it is actually there? 

Re: The Dark Side of the Moon
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2019, 12:42:12 PM »
Sorry if my attempt at creating an analogy seems ridiculous to you. It was my weak attempt at illustrating a point. That point being that it seems to me that some people won't believe something exists or is true unless they are physically standing in front of it.
No one is denying that such people exist.

No one has pointed out why this approach to life in general is somehow less than.
It is obviously physically impossible to go and stand on the far side of the Moon in front of the landing craft that the Chinese have put there so what how else apart from announcing it and showing photos taken by it are they supposed to prove it is actually there?
I don't know.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 12:52:35 PM by totallackey »

Offline ChrisTP

  • *
  • Posts: 207
    • View Profile
Re: The Dark Side of the Moon
« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2019, 02:13:00 PM »
"No one has pointed out why this approach to life in general is somehow less than." - totallackey

It's fine to question things, this is the scientific method. If you've ever wondered why things like gravity are still called "theories" it's because while it's so far been proven to be a thing, there's still always the possibility that what we think we understand is actually not to be. and in the face of evidence against what we think we know, we should question what is is that we think we know and if needed, modify or come up with a new theory.

The problem you have is that you question absolutely everything that doesn't prove what you think to be true. This, at least in my opinion, is a lesser way of life because by selectively choosing to believe one thing and nothing else no matter what, you limit your knowledge and your ability to learn new things. This is detrimental to society IMO, we as a the human race should strive for knowledge and understanding. Choosing to stick to one thing stops that from happening.

What all "flat earthers" should be doing is if you really must question the earths shape, is to also question the idea of the earth being flat too. There is a ton more proof that the earth is sphere than flat, but both may be wrong as well. No one should stick to what they think they know in such a stubborn way but you should also not believe absolutely everything you're told either. In that sense I agree with you I think (to not believe everything you're told). But it's a very small agreement compared to the rest of your apparent beliefs.

I ask you this, what makes you think that the "documented history" that all media outlets lie is actually true? Why would you believe documented history stating news lies, yet not believe documented history stating that men landed on the moon? How are you validating all of this for yourself? And you should also ask yourself why you are validating some things and not others in your mind.

My 'belief' is to seek knowledge of all things. If something proves wrong what I thought was right, my mind is changed. So far I have no reason to believe china faked landing on the far side of the moon, but obviously, theoretically it is possible to fake it. It's actually far harder to fake something like that in the information age than it is to just be able to do it. Even the smallest of conspiracies will have whistle blowers from within. We will find out almost any 'scandal'. At least in my opinion.

This is in no way meant as an insult to you or FE people, just my observations and understanding of the mindset particularly you seem to have. Correct me if I'm wrong by all means but it seems like you simply don't want to to believe it, as opposed to having an actual reason not to believe it?

shootingstar

Re: The Dark Side of the Moon
« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2019, 03:39:51 PM »
Flat Earthers as I understand it are 'empiricists' in that they base their views purely on evidence that can be gained from using our natural senses alone. If you can't see it simply by looking out and around you then it doesn't count. That is a very convenient way of getting around the problem of space based images that show the Earth to be round but that doesn't make those images any less real.

When I think back to times of ancient Greece and other famous civilisations, they had no knowledge at all of the causes or nature of what they saw around them and above them. Back then there was no NASA or ESA or any other government driven organisations that could be accused of deliberately lying to or deceiving the people. There was just a genuine fascination about the world around them and they had far less knowledge and reference material to help them than we do today. In that sense they were totally reliant on empirical methods. Yet they were able to start building a theory of the Universe and the Earth that mainstream science still follows today.  Why? because it explains very simply and very easily everything that we observe.

 
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 03:43:47 PM by shootingstar »

Re: The Dark Side of the Moon
« Reply #30 on: January 07, 2019, 05:05:13 PM »
"No one has pointed out why this approach to life in general is somehow less than." - totallackey

It's fine to question things, this is the scientific method. If you've ever wondered why things like gravity are still called "theories" it's because while it's so far been proven to be a thing, there's still always the possibility that what we think we understand is actually not to be. and in the face of evidence against what we think we know, we should question what is is that we think we know and if needed, modify or come up with a new theory.
Okay.
The problem you have is that you question absolutely everything that doesn't prove what you think to be true.
The more immediate problem YOU have is assuming facts not in evidence, leading way to you making such outlandish claims.
This, at least in my opinion, is a lesser way of life because by selectively choosing to believe one thing and nothing else no matter what, you limit your knowledge and your ability to learn new things.
I have no inability to learn new things, neither does any other human.
This is detrimental to society IMO, we as a the human race should strive for knowledge and understanding. Choosing to stick to one thing stops that from happening.
So sticking to 2+2 = 4 is setting unreasonable boundaries?
What all "flat earthers" should be doing is if you really must question the earths shape, is to also question the idea of the earth being flat too.
I do.
There is a ton more proof that the earth is sphere than flat...
Debatable.
...but both may be wrong as well.
True.
No one should stick to what they think they know in such a stubborn way...
Ah, here we find the mindset leading you to order me to "stop posting."

As stated before, a clear indication of philosophical, ethical, and intellectual dishonesty on your part.
...but you should also not believe absolutely everything you're told either.
I don't.
In that sense I agree with you I think (to not believe everything you're told).
Who wouldn't?
But it's a very small agreement compared to the rest of your apparent beliefs.
And to me, I categorize this specific agreement as the only one that counts.

Tell me, do you believe agreements should be solely categorized in terms of amount or substance?
I ask you this, what makes you think that the "documented history" that all media outlets lie is actually true?
Probably the multiple incidents of all news organizations, particular MSM, having formed their own lies and perpetuating lies, particularly on behalf of government.

Did I really need to write any answer to this question? 
Why would you believe documented history stating news lies...
Because of INDISPUTABLE PROOF of MSM having lied.
...yet not believe documented history stating that men landed on the moon?
Because of the SOURCE of the documentation.
How are you validating all of this for yourself?
I do not validate my beliefs. I do validate my knowledge.
And you should also ask yourself why you are validating some things and not others in your mind.
I do.
My 'belief' is to seek knowledge of all things. If something proves wrong what I thought was right, my mind is changed. So far I have no reason to believe china faked landing on the far side of the moon, but obviously, theoretically it is possible to fake it. It's actually far harder to fake something like that in the information age than it is to just be able to do it.
You were on such a roll.

It certainly is not far more or less HARD to fake anything.

It is easier to fake things and that is why people like David Copperfield, Penn & Teller, and Chriss Angel, are able to make a living.
Even the smallest of conspiracies will have whistle blowers from within. We will find out almost any 'scandal'. At least in my opinion.
Your opinion is yours.
This is in no way meant as an insult to you or FE people, just my observations and understanding of the mindset particularly you seem to have. Correct me if I'm wrong by all means but it seems like you simply don't want to to believe it, as opposed to having an actual reason not to believe it?
I have provided verifiable and indisputable evidence as to VALID reasons why I do not believe it.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 05:09:14 PM by totallackey »

*

Offline Tumeni

  • *
  • Posts: 1103
    • View Profile
Re: The Dark Side of the Moon
« Reply #31 on: January 07, 2019, 06:41:54 PM »
This is a reversal of burden of proof, and we shouldn't be engaging it. I can't tell others what to do, but I'm not falling for it, personally.

Can you indicate what you would accept as proof, in this instance?

Photos relayed from the rover?
Telemetry data from the experiments on board the rover?
Something else?
==============================
==============================
Pete Svarrior "We are not here to directly persuade anyone ... You mistake our lack of interest in you for our absence."

Tom Bishop "We are extremely popular and the entire world wants to talk to us. We have better things to do with our lives than have in depth discussions with every single curious person. You are lucky to get one sentence dismissals from us"

*

Offline Tumeni

  • *
  • Posts: 1103
    • View Profile
Re: The Dark Side of the Moon
« Reply #32 on: January 07, 2019, 06:47:25 PM »
Your initial query was,"Do you have any evidence of fakery?" My response was," Do you have any evidence of reality?

And yes, I do want to know if any photos are legit. Not only do I want to know if the photos are legit, I also want to know the photos were taken of the object which is claimed to be depicted in that photo. I have yet to see any evidence of this being the case. I see claims a plenty but no real evidence.

I've seen two or three shots of the rover leaving the lander. Which photos have you seen so far? Are you saying you've seen photos, but don't believe them, or that you've seen no photos yet?


News media LIE and PRINT LIES and have done so for a very long time (a lengthy body of evidence) and that is unequivocal FACT.

Even if it were proven that they have lied in the past, that's no proof of lies about this.

You wouldn't be able to convict someone of shoplifting if your only evidence was that they had shoplifted before, in another store  in another town
==============================
==============================
Pete Svarrior "We are not here to directly persuade anyone ... You mistake our lack of interest in you for our absence."

Tom Bishop "We are extremely popular and the entire world wants to talk to us. We have better things to do with our lives than have in depth discussions with every single curious person. You are lucky to get one sentence dismissals from us"

Re: The Dark Side of the Moon
« Reply #33 on: January 08, 2019, 11:36:58 AM »
I've seen two or three shots of the rover leaving the lander. Which photos have you seen so far? Are you saying you've seen photos, but don't believe them, or that you've seen no photos yet?
I have seen the photos.

This is merely evidence of images and not evidence of origin.
Even if it were proven that they have lied in the past, that's no proof of lies about this.
Why deny it with the phrase, "Even if..."? There is absolutely no doubt MSM has lied about past events and continue to lie or propagate/promulgate lies, particularly on behalf of governments.

It is evidence of lying and the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.
You wouldn't be able to convict someone of shoplifting if your only evidence was that they had shoplifted before, in another store  in another town
Another false equivalence horse hockey venture.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2019, 12:09:15 PM by totallackey »

shootingstar

Re: The Dark Side of the Moon
« Reply #34 on: January 08, 2019, 11:42:59 AM »
I seem to have lost the plot now with this thread..  lost track of who is disagreeing with who.   We don't seem to be getting anywhere at the moment here and what has it got to do with the original OP?  What has the thread achieved so far?

Re: The Dark Side of the Moon
« Reply #35 on: January 08, 2019, 11:54:57 AM »
So your only real evidence to prove anything is if you witness it with your own eyes?

So George Washington and Alexander the Great did not exist? I mean, what evidence do we have?

Re: The Dark Side of the Moon
« Reply #36 on: January 08, 2019, 12:10:40 PM »
So your only real evidence to prove anything is if you witness it with your own eyes?

So George Washington and Alexander the Great did not exist? I mean, what evidence do we have?
Who claimed George Washington and Alexander the Great didn't exist?

What is with all these false equivalencies and straw men?

Offline ChrisTP

  • *
  • Posts: 207
    • View Profile
Re: The Dark Side of the Moon
« Reply #37 on: January 08, 2019, 12:31:26 PM »
So your only real evidence to prove anything is if you witness it with your own eyes?

So George Washington and Alexander the Great did not exist? I mean, what evidence do we have?
Who claimed George Washington and Alexander the Great didn't exist?

What is with all these false equivalencies and straw men?
The point they are trying to make is using the same logic, it's hard to really verify anything in all of history or around the world. an individual can't possible witness everything in all of time, therefore according to that logic very little exists to that individual. "I didn't witness it so it didn't happen" isn't really an argument against anything and is a pretty pointless argument to make. Sadly it's also how a lot of flat earther think and it stops any debate from flourishing.

Anyone could argue the same way for literally anything;

I haven't seen the globe earth from space, therefore the earth is flat.

I haven't seen the flat earth from space, therefore the earth is not flat.

I've never personally met Matt LeBlanc, therefore all footage of him is faked and CGI.

I've never personally drowned in the sea nor seen anyone drown, therefore I cannot drown under water.

I've never personally been mugged or witnessed a mugging, therefore I cannot be mugged.

The point being made here is that this way of thinking doesn't really help anyone and it does not further the discussion we are trying to have. At least, that would be my interpretation of the point they are trying to make. This means that such an argument is pointless to make. Why make a pointless argument? I cannot simply tell you that you can drown under water because you cannot take my word for it, since you need to be able to witness it yourself. It's a non-argument.

Disclaimer: please do not try to experiment by submerging yourself indefinitely under water.

Anyway we are divulging from the original topic, I'd like to hear more from flat earthers about China's claimed far side moon landing.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2019, 12:34:27 PM by ChrisTP »

Re: The Dark Side of the Moon
« Reply #38 on: January 08, 2019, 12:37:47 PM »
The most coherent response came from Pete. I've been meaning to reply. Unfortunately he posted it in a thread in AR but it's pertinent here, so:

It's not "fake". It's untrustworthy. Contrary to claims, very little actual examinable footage has been released, and most news stories contain primarily shitty computer animations reminiscent of old cartoons. Recall your own hand-waving around the subject of evidence.

It's an unverifiable claim and it's being treated as one.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Re: The Dark Side of the Moon
« Reply #39 on: January 08, 2019, 12:44:05 PM »
So your only real evidence to prove anything is if you witness it with your own eyes?

So George Washington and Alexander the Great did not exist? I mean, what evidence do we have?
Who claimed George Washington and Alexander the Great didn't exist?

What is with all these false equivalencies and straw men?
The point they are trying to make is using the same logic, it's hard to really verify anything in all of history or around the world. an individual can't possible witness everything in all of time, therefore according to that logic very little exists to that individual. "I didn't witness it so it didn't happen" isn't really an argument against anything and is a pretty pointless argument to make. Sadly it's also how a lot of flat earther think and it stops any debate from flourishing.
If it was even close to the same logic you might have a point.

Whether or not any FE adherent follows this approach is another story.

Claiming I follow it is simply a strawman.
Anyone could argue the same way for literally anything;

I haven't seen the globe earth from space, therefore the earth is flat.

I haven't seen the flat earth from space, therefore the earth is not flat.

I've never personally met Matt LeBlanc, therefore all footage of him is faked and CGI.

I've never personally drowned in the sea nor seen anyone drown, therefore I cannot drown under water.

I've never personally been mugged or witnessed a mugging, therefore I cannot be mugged.
Yeah, fine.

Let me know when you see that argument here in this thread.
The point being made here is that this way of thinking doesn't really help anyone and it does not further the discussion we are trying to have. At least, that would be my interpretation of the point they are trying to make. This means that such an argument is pointless to make. Why make a pointless argument? I cannot simply tell you that you can drown under water because you cannot take my word for it, since you need to be able to witness it yourself. It's a non-argument.
And you stating it is a non-argument is a waste of your time.

No one has ever stated it is a valid argument here in this thread.
Disclaimer: please do not try to experiment by submerging yourself indefinitely under water.
Oh geez...foiled again.
Anyway we are divulging from the original topic, I'd like to hear more from flat earthers about China's claimed far side moon landing.
What does FE have to do with the moon anyway?