the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
« on: December 31, 2018, 06:43:25 PM »
That is what my sister tells me.  I decided to use some basic math and see for myself. 

Hopefully you all know what a right triangle is.  It has a 90 degree angle, and it is a unique triangle in that if you are given one of the acute angles (one of the other 2 angles less than 90 degrees) and the length of a side, you can determine the length of the other sides using basic geometry. 

Here is a right triangle:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_triangle#/media/File:Rtriangle.svg

Now pretend on this triangle that at points A and C, you and a friend are standing on the Earth's surface.  Point B is the "alleged" ISS light in the sky.  There are many websites such as HeavensAbove.com that will show, when you input your location, information about ISS sightings, such as how high in the sky it will appear, and when.  Using this information, and a little patience, you can find a location in the US where the ISS is flying directly overhead--exactly 90 degrees overhead.  Let me know if you have trouble and I can talk you through it.

This point where ISS is directly overhead, 90 degrees, is point C.  Now you go there, and send your friend to a location 50-250 miles away.  According to the website, it will tell you from this second site, A, how high in the sky you will see the ISS.  This will be in a maximum height in degrees.  Find a location A where the highest ISS angle in the sky occurs at the exact same time (within a few seconds) as the direct overhead pass at point C.  Now you have your right triangle, with 2 givens--the distance between the 2 locations, b, and angle A.  When you see the ISS at point A, you can confirm that it is at the advertised angle.  You can now calculate the approximate height of the ISS, side a.  According to my calculations, and I have done this multiple times, the height of the ISS light is approximately 235 miles above the Earth's surface.  Yes, 235 miles.

I guess if you doubted there were maybe multiple flying objects in the sky, you could always get other friends to go to locations along line b in between A and C and confirm that they are not seeing 2 (or more ) objects in the sky at the same time. 

The interesting thing is that at angles for A that are extreme, such as close to 10 degrees, the height of ISS seems to be lower and lower as you get further away (around 150 miles high at 10 degrees).  I couldn't understand why for the longest time, until I figured it out.  As A and C get further away, I was not taking into account the effect on the calculations due to Earth curvature.  Line b is not truly a straight line, but a curved line.  When I got into some circle math, I was able to correct for this precisely. 

I would love to hear anyone's experience with this easy experiment and simple observation. 

shootingstar

Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2018, 10:51:34 PM »
I have seen an account of this same experiment along with photos to back it up. I can't describe the experiment any better than you already have but the figures that you turn out are entirely correct.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2019, 12:29:56 AM »
If you are using a triangle, you are assuming that the earth is flat.

Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2019, 12:45:17 AM »
Yes and no.  With only 250 miles between the 2 people on the Earth surface, the curvature of the Earth is negligible for the purposes of this experiment.  We get "close enough" since we are merely trying to prove that the Earth is over a hundred miles high, not to the mile.  Point has been proven.  Furthermore, with the reducing height as we get to extremes of angle only further prove Earth curvature the values of which can be calculated and confirmed.  The Earth is round and the ISS is real, and over 200 miles high.   This proves it.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2019, 12:54:23 AM »
Yes and no.  With only 250 miles between the 2 people on the Earth surface, the curvature of the Earth is negligible for the purposes of this experiment.  We get "close enough" since we are merely trying to prove that the Earth is over a hundred miles high, not to the mile.  Point has been proven.  Furthermore, with the reducing height as we get to extremes of angle only further prove Earth curvature the values of which can be calculated and confirmed.  The Earth is round and the ISS is real, and over 200 miles high.   This proves it.

I don't understand. So you want to do a Flat Earth experiment, but also want everyone else to suspend belief and imagine that it's a Round Earth experiment?  ???
« Last Edit: January 01, 2019, 12:57:28 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline stack

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Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2019, 01:12:25 AM »
Yes and no.  With only 250 miles between the 2 people on the Earth surface, the curvature of the Earth is negligible for the purposes of this experiment.  We get "close enough" since we are merely trying to prove that the Earth is over a hundred miles high, not to the mile.  Point has been proven.  Furthermore, with the reducing height as we get to extremes of angle only further prove Earth curvature the values of which can be calculated and confirmed.  The Earth is round and the ISS is real, and over 200 miles high.   This proves it.

I don't understand. So you want to do a Flat Earth experiment, but also want everyone else to suspend belief and imagine that it's a Round Earth experiment?  ???

Here's something I've always been confused about. Does the ISS have to be fake if the earth is flat and if so, why? If the moon and sun orbit above a flat earth, why couldn't the ISS?

I know it can't be real on a flat earth b/c views from it don't bode well for FET. But putting that aside, what's stopping an object like the ISS from circling above the flat earth?
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2019, 07:21:19 AM »
This is not a flat earth experiment.  This is an experiment to determine how high the ISS is.  A ancillary discovery that the earth is actually round is an added bonus...

shootingstar

Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2019, 09:41:38 AM »
The experiment I am thinking of involved someone with a telescope measuring the observed altitude of the ISS at two points on the Earths surface. The points were a known distance apart and observations took place on the same night during two successive passes. The second pass occurred 92 minutes after the first. This gave him plenty of time to move all his equipment from one location and then drive to the other and set his gear up at the second location.


He used vertical triangles with the 'opposite' side being the ISS height and the adjacent side being the distance apart of the two observing locations. He used the small angle approximation in maths and pointed out that allowance for the curvature of the Earth introduced the small uncertainty in his measurement. The purpose of the experiment wasn't to prove whether the Earth was round or flat but just to show how easily you could work out the height of the ISS or any satellite for that matter with just a simple telescope and two different observation points in his local area.  Using the same triangles as he pointed out it was easily to calculate the distance between him as the observer and the ISS itself.  A distance represented by the hypotenuse of the same triangle.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2019, 09:45:42 AM by shootingstar »

Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2019, 10:16:48 PM »
Of course this is not a flat Earth experiment.  It is an experiment to prove the Earth is a globe and that satellites, including ISS, are real and that their altitude can be calculated.  If I made that the title of the string, though, no flatters would read...

shootingstar

Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2019, 11:57:11 PM »
My contribution to your OP is simply to back up the information you have outlined. I wish to hell I could remember where I saw the description of the experiment. Could have been online or in a magazine.

My point is that FE people simply could not come up with such accurate or comprehensive results because they rely on much simpler information. They choose to deprive themselves of all the information that is out there these days for reasons that I cannot fathom.

Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2019, 06:05:49 PM »
This youtube video shows in excruciating detail how they calculated the distance to the ISS using similar, but way cooler information. 


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Offline Tumeni

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Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2019, 12:02:52 AM »
If you are using a triangle, you are assuming that the earth is flat.

Go on, tell us how you reach that conclusion.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2019, 12:13:38 AM »
If you are using a triangle, you are assuming that the earth is flat.

Go on, tell us how you reach that conclusion.

I took a look at the shape of a triangle.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2019, 12:55:31 AM »
If you are using a triangle, you are assuming that the earth is flat.

Go on, tell us how you reach that conclusion.

I took a look at the shape of a triangle.

I don't have any problem with adjusting for the arc (over the surface) and the chord (the straight line, or side of the triangle) under the arc.

Simple geometry, surely?

https://imgur.com/nSC1XYn
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Tom Bishop "We are extremely popular and the entire world wants to talk to us. We have better things to do with our lives than have in depth discussions with every single curious person. You are lucky to get one sentence dismissals from us"

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2019, 02:59:28 AM »
If you are using a triangle, you are assuming that the earth is flat.

Go on, tell us how you reach that conclusion.

I took a look at the shape of a triangle.

I don't have any problem with adjusting for the arc (over the surface) and the chord (the straight line, or side of the triangle) under the arc.

Simple geometry, surely?

https://imgur.com/nSC1XYn

If you agreed that a triangle was a flat earth, why did you bother to even post at all?

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2019, 07:09:50 AM »
If you agreed that a triangle was a flat earth ....

I don't think I agreed that.

A triangle is a geometric shape. Formulae in geometry dictate that for every measurement across the surface or arc of a globe, the chord which links the extremities of that arc can be calculated. See Bobby Shafto's thread where he enquires about the formulae for doing so.

The poster above saying that he got, within reasonable bounds of error, the approximate height of the ISS, may well get a more exact figure by using the chord between his observers, rather than the arc.

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Pete Svarrior "We are not here to directly persuade anyone ... You mistake our lack of interest in you for our absence."

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Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2019, 11:18:36 AM »
I don't understand.

Allow me to assist. The ISS is at an altitude of 408km. Let's say you take observations from 100km apart. That looks like this:


Aha! You say, but you have assumed a flat earth. True. BUT, the circumference of the earth is 40,075km. So 100km is a tiny fraction of that, it equates to ~0.9 degrees difference.
Enough to introduce some error, certainly. And yes you can correct for that error to get a more accurate measurement.
It doesn't completely invalidate the experiment if you don't though.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline WellRoundedIndividual

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Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2019, 11:28:47 AM »
Tom is only going to refute you based on his ardent loyalty to Gerrard Hickson and his book, Kings Dethroned. (Which by the way, Tom, I am still reading).
BobLawBlah.

Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2019, 11:37:48 AM »
Tom is only going to refute you based on his ardent loyalty to Gerrard Hickson and his book, Kings Dethroned. (Which by the way, Tom, I am still reading).
Probably, but I don't know what there is to refute here. It's just simple geometry.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Re: the ISS light in the sky is fake, right?
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2019, 12:50:07 PM »
I don't understand.

Allow me to assist. The ISS is at an altitude of 408km. Let's say you take observations from 100km apart. That looks like this:


Aha! You say, but you have assumed a flat earth. True. BUT, the circumference of the earth is 40,075km. So 100km is a tiny fraction of that, it equates to ~0.9 degrees difference.
Enough to introduce some error, certainly. And yes you can correct for that error to get a more accurate measurement.
It doesn't completely invalidate the experiment if you don't though.
Why would you post an isosceles triangle in a right triangle experiment?