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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The Zig-Zaging Sun
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2018, 01:51:55 PM »
Quote
Download Celestia, which is a planetarium program. Navigate to the higher latitudes and you will find that there is no zig-zagging sun. The sun floats across above horizon just as expected:
 
You get the same effect with Stellarium if you choose the planetarium view.

Stellarium uses Earth-based equatorial/ecliptic coordinate system methods of pattern prediction, based on the patterns seen on the celestial "dome" above the observer.

Go to this website which describes such Earth-based equatorial coordinate system prediction methods and point out to us where the distance to the sun or the radius or diameter of the earth in RET is expressed: https://www.aa.quae.nl/en/reken/zonpositie.html

That red line and the blue line are converging at the edges of that screenshot. There is your zigging and zagging.

The same thing is seen at 80 degrees. The sun just floats above the horizon in a circle around the observer, regardless of whether it gets a little higher or lower.

That some can pretend that a circle around the observer and low to the horizon is a zig-zag is odd.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2018, 02:17:34 PM by Tom Bishop »

Offline edby

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Re: The Zig-Zaging Sun
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2018, 02:23:21 PM »
Quote
Download Celestia, which is a planetarium program. Navigate to the higher latitudes and you will find that there is no zig-zagging sun. The sun floats across above horizon just as expected:
 
You get the same effect with Stellarium if you choose the planetarium view.

Stellarium uses Earth-based equatorial/ecliptic coordinate system methods of pattern prediction, based on the patterns seen on the celestial "dome" above the observer.
So Stellarium will give different results from Celestia? Evidence please, using azimuth and altitude readings from each program.

That some can pretend that a circle around the observer and low to the horizon is a zig-zag is odd.
As I said above, depending on the view you choose (Stellarium) they appear as both. Not odd at all. Note the planetarium view shows the horizon as curved, indeed circular.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2018, 02:25:11 PM by edby »

shootingstar

Re: The Zig-Zaging Sun
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2018, 02:29:02 PM »
Quote
Download Celestia

So Tom this Celestia simulator, is that specifically made to simulate a FE world? If not then why should that be highlighted as any better or any different to any other space simulator available?  Since FE theorists apparently don't think that any one or anything has gone beyond the Earths 'atmoplane' I can't see how any of that is relevant to you.

Offline edby

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Re: The Zig-Zaging Sun
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2018, 02:36:24 PM »
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Download Celestia

So Tom this Celestia simulator, is that specifically made to simulate a FE world? If not then why should that be highlighted as any better or any different to any other space simulator available?  Since FE theorists apparently don't think that any one or anything has gone beyond the Earths 'atmoplane' I can't see how any of that is relevant to you.
If it were designed to simulate an FE world that would be strange, given that NASA promote it and use it as part of their educational outreach https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestia.

Offline edby

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Re: The Zig-Zaging Sun
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2018, 02:44:50 PM »
Stack already explained above how a circle can appear both as a circle and a 'zig zag' i.e. a sin function.




shootingstar

Re: The Zig-Zaging Sun
« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2018, 04:14:25 PM »
Quote
Download Celestia, which is a 3D planetarium program. Navigate to the higher latitudes and you will find that there is no zig-zagging sun. The sun floats above the horizon around the observer just as expected:


I haven't downloaded or tried Celestia Tom but in mentioning this your point is?? 


Update to my last:  I have now installed Celestia.  On the face of it looks to be a good simulator. Opens up with a nice view of a big, round Earth!
« Last Edit: December 29, 2018, 04:19:58 PM by shootingstar »

Offline edby

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Re: The Zig-Zaging Sun
« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2018, 04:36:26 PM »
Quote
Download Celestia, which is a 3D planetarium program. Navigate to the higher latitudes and you will find that there is no zig-zagging sun. The sun floats above the horizon around the observer just as expected:


I haven't downloaded or tried Celestia Tom but in mentioning this your point is?? 


Update to my last:  I have now installed Celestia.  On the face of it looks to be a good simulator. Opens up with a nice view of a big, round Earth!
Well done. Now, does the sun altitude show up?

shootingstar

Re: The Zig-Zaging Sun
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2018, 05:46:25 PM »
I haven't got that far with it yet.  So far great tool for exploring the solar system but not sure how to simulate the video yet that started this post.  Will keep you updated.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Zig-Zaging Sun
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2018, 06:47:44 PM »
Download Celestia, which is a 3D planetarium program. Navigate to the higher latitudes and you will find that there is no zig-zagging sun. The sun floats above the horizon around the observer just as expected:



I did. I found a "zig-zagging" sun, just as with the AndrewMarsh app you linked to earlier. 

Allow me to decipher your Celestia screencap and explain:



You had the red line of the sun's ecliptic displayed against a blue equatorial grid and a horizon reference for the earth.

My image takes the same snapshot and adds some elevation above the horizon lines (green) and an apparent path of the sun (white) in reference to that those.

Your snapshot was from a point in time 2 hours after the sun had reached its lowest elevation on that date, as seen from 75° north latitude. At the time of the your picture, the sun is ascending. It was ended its "zig" 2 hours earlier and is now on it's "zag."

Though this is for 2014, look at how the Andrew Marsh calculator depicts that: the sun is "zigging" just prior to reach N where it will reach it's lowest point over the horizon, and then will "zag" as the elevation increases over the next ~12 hours.



Checking this with Stellarium, and it's the same story. I put all 3 grids in (equatorial, azimuthal and ecliptic) so you could see how they are related.



This is what is happening in the opening video you posted. I wouldn't call it "zig zag." More like "undulating" but it's not "smooth." The "zig zag" is a function of latitude. At 75°, it's "zig zags," as illustrated by the resources you brought to the table.




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Offline markjo

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Re: The Zig-Zaging Sun
« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2018, 07:04:37 PM »
How does RET explain this geometry of the sun's movement?
By understanding trigonometry.  A sine wave (not a zig-zag) is the natural result of plotting circular motion over the course of a straight line.

https://betterexplained.com/articles/intuitive-understanding-of-sine-waves/


The sun is going around the observer. The observer isn't looking at the sun externally from its side.
The observer is tracking the movement of the sun resulting in the zig-zagging.  Perhaps this might help you visualize the sun's movements a little better:
http://astro.unl.edu/naap/motion3/animations/sunmotions.html
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline stack

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Re: The Zig-Zaging Sun
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2018, 09:22:23 PM »
Under the Flat Earth Theory my interpretation of this is because the sun is close to the earth and much more subject to perspective and perspective lines, which are straight, and which is why the sun seems to be going on straight paths as it approaches and recedes, with abrupt changes of direction.

All I'm seeing is that the observation matches a globe earth model. What I'm not seeing is how the observation matches a flat earth model. If the sun is circling around you from this location somewhat equidistantly then it is not 'approaching' and 'receding', it's circling. The perspective doesn't change. The only other explanation for the observation would be that the sun changes altitudes when circling over a flat earth.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The Zig-Zaging Sun
« Reply #31 on: December 31, 2018, 11:12:10 AM »
Stack already explained above how a circle can appear both as a circle and a 'zig zag' i.e. a sin function.



That image seems to imply a small and close sun that makes jarring movements near the observer, just as was suggested in the premise.

Now, rather than showing us something that more closely reflects our model, how about showing something which implies a sun that is 93 million miles away making a circle around the observer?


shootingstar

Re: The Zig-Zaging Sun
« Reply #32 on: December 31, 2018, 11:36:04 AM »
Tom,

From naked eye observations of the Sun in the sky only, how can you tell what the distance of the Sun from Earth is?

Offline edby

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Re: The Zig-Zaging Sun
« Reply #33 on: December 31, 2018, 11:53:01 AM »
Stack already explained above how a circle can appear both as a circle and a 'zig zag' i.e. a sin function.



That image seems to imply a small and close sun that makes jarring movements near the observer, just as was suggested in the premise.

Now, rather than showing us something that more closely reflects our model, how about showing something which implies a sun that is 93 million miles away making a circle around the observer?
(1) There are no 'jarring movements'. The change in altitude is measurably the same as a sine wave.
(2) It is perfectly consistent with GET
(3) GET does not posit a sun 'making a circle around the observer'. The earth, hence the observer, is rotating

I don't know how FET explains the sine wave effect. Can you show us?

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Offline stack

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Re: The Zig-Zaging Sun
« Reply #34 on: December 31, 2018, 12:13:42 PM »
Stack already explained above how a circle can appear both as a circle and a 'zig zag' i.e. a sin function.



That image seems to imply a small and close sun that makes jarring movements near the observer, just as was suggested in the premise.

Now, rather than showing us something that more closely reflects our model, how about showing something which implies a sun that is 93 million miles away making a circle around the observer?

Ok, let's go with that, you're right, the image, yes, totally implies a small, 32 mile wide, 3000 mile high sun, just like on flat earth. It's, perhaps, a flat earth model. So given that it more closely resembles a flat earth model, why is it that the sun changes altitude like that? Rises up, lowers down when it does, zig zags, if you will, almost 'jarring movements', in your parlance, near the observer. On a flat earth? Curious, indeed.

Perspective is not the answer, it's circling around you (In my world I'm circling around it), not elliptically moving that far from or near to you to create such an effect, according to your own calculations/observations in previous posts. So what could it be?  It can only mean that on a flat earth the sun is changing altitudes. And that's interesting. Because that would mean it's actually, physically, rising and falling. Why? How might we reconcile a flat earth sun, for whatever reason, ascending and descending like that. Again, 'perspective' is out, it's circling, too close. Flat Earth questions without Flat Earth answers. Why does your sun change altitudes?
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

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Offline markjo

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Re: The Zig-Zaging Sun
« Reply #35 on: December 31, 2018, 09:27:05 PM »
Now, rather than showing us something that more closely reflects our model, how about showing something which implies a sun that is 93 million miles away making a circle around the observer?
Tom. the sun doesn't make a circle around the observer.  It makes a circle around the poles, just like all the rest of the stars.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Zig-Zaging Sun
« Reply #36 on: December 31, 2018, 09:58:25 PM »
That image seems to imply a small and close sun that makes jarring movements near the observer, just as was suggested in the premise.

It doesn't imply that, seemingly or otherwise. I'll bow out of this since I don't know how else to contribute without challenging the level of reasoning that would lead one to interpret the illustrations being presented to you as you are doing.

Good luck.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The Zig-Zaging Sun
« Reply #37 on: January 01, 2019, 01:25:28 AM »
Stack already explained above how a circle can appear both as a circle and a 'zig zag' i.e. a sin function.



That image seems to imply a small and close sun that makes jarring movements near the observer, just as was suggested in the premise.

Now, rather than showing us something that more closely reflects our model, how about showing something which implies a sun that is 93 million miles away making a circle around the observer?
(1) There are no 'jarring movements'. The change in altitude is measurably the same as a sine wave.
(2) It is perfectly consistent with GET
(3) GET does not posit a sun 'making a circle around the observer'. The earth, hence the observer, is rotating

I don't know how FET explains the sine wave effect. Can you show us?


I would suggest looking more into what the sine and cosine waves and functions are.

https://www.khanacademy.org/science/electrical-engineering/ee-circuit-analysis-topic/ee-ac-analysis/v/ee-sine-cosine-circles

Please point out for us where it says that it is what an observer would see when a body circles around them.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2019, 01:29:33 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: The Zig-Zaging Sun
« Reply #38 on: January 01, 2019, 07:47:52 AM »
I think it effectively says that here

Quote
Sine and cosine can be generated by projecting the tip of a vector onto the y-axis and x-axis as the vector rotates about the origin

But even if I have interpreted that wrongly, you’ve linked to a page about circuits and electrical engineering. Why would the omission of that information add any weight to this debate. And like many things debated on here, this is not something one can debate. The observation is that the sun makes a sine wave in the sky near the Poles in their summer, the globe earth mode can predict and explain that observation (whether you understand that explanation is irrelevant), what is the FE explanation?
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The Zig-Zaging Sun
« Reply #39 on: January 01, 2019, 11:34:13 AM »
I think it effectively says that here

Quote
Sine and cosine can be generated by projecting the tip of a vector onto the y-axis and x-axis as the vector rotates about the origin

But even if I have interpreted that wrongly, you’ve linked to a page about circuits and electrical engineering. Why would the omission of that information add any weight to this debate. And like many things debated on here, this is not something one can debate. The observation is that the sun makes a sine wave in the sky near the Poles in their summer, the globe earth mode can predict and explain that observation (whether you understand that explanation is irrelevant), what is the FE explanation?

Please find a link about sines which says anything like you are describing.

All links describing sines show a 2D circle. If the horizon had no obstructions and the sun were horizontal to you, with it's bottom edge sliding across the horizon at all times, neither increasing or decreasing it's altitude, on a 2D plane just as the sine illustrations imply, how does the sine wave apply at all?

Sine is a mathematical function used for an entirely different purpose, not for this purpose. It appears that some here may be performing creative thinking in the spirit of theoretical rivelry.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2019, 11:37:39 AM by Tom Bishop »