*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 5975
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
The Zig-Zaging Sun
« on: December 29, 2018, 03:41:54 AM »
According to RET the Midnight Sun of the Arctic occurs because for a portion of the year the earth is tilted on it's axis, with the Arctic towards the sun, as the earth rotates:



This should produce a smoothly rotating sun around the Arctic that never sets.

In contradiction to this expected smoothness, we find videos of the sun from the Arctics which apparently zig-zaggs in the sky:



Source

Under the Flat Earth Theory my interpretation of this is because the sun is close to the earth and much more subject to perspective and perspective lines, which are straight, and which is why the sun seems to be going on straight paths as it approaches and recedes, with abrupt changes of direction.

However, the Round Earth Theory proposes a sun that is very far away and is not subject to this sort of perspective.

How does RET explain this geometry of the sun's movement?
« Last Edit: December 29, 2018, 03:52:20 AM by Tom Bishop »

*

Offline RonJ

  • *
  • Posts: 603
  • ACTA NON VERBA
    • View Profile
Re: The Zig-Zaging Sun
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2018, 04:01:54 AM »
You didn't say at exactly which latitude and on what date the video was done.  The Sun should only stay at a constant distance above the horizon at the North Pole and only on one day a year.  Think about a person just a little below the Arctic circle.  The Sun would dip down below the horizon, slowly rise, then slowly fall again below the horizon.  Rinse & repeat.  Please provide more information about the video for more exact information about the height vs azimuth information.  It's all possible on the Globe Earth after all.   
For FE no explanation is possible, for RE no explanation is necessary.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 5975
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: The Zig-Zaging Sun
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2018, 04:03:52 AM »
Does it matter what latitude it is on? Look at the diagram. The Northern Hemisphere of the earth is tilted towards the sun and is smoothly rotating:


*

Offline RonJ

  • *
  • Posts: 603
  • ACTA NON VERBA
    • View Profile
Re: The Zig-Zaging Sun
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2018, 04:10:50 AM »
Please think about your reply and do your homework. 

I've provided an example in my first post were the Sun would go up & down when just below the Arctic circle.  Going above the Arctic Circle won't matter much except for the magnitude of the bouncing until you got all the way to the North Pole.   Sit down, really study the situation, and then let the math do the talking. It is completely earth agnostic and won't lie to you. 
For FE no explanation is possible, for RE no explanation is necessary.

Offline model 29

  • *
  • Posts: 388
    • View Profile
Re: The Zig-Zaging Sun
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2018, 05:11:31 AM »
.... Look at the diagram.....

Indeed, let us do that. 

At the "top" of the globe in the diagram where a spot along the arctic circle is close to, or touching, the day/night terminator (Let us say 11:59 PM), is the sun hitting the surface at a shallower angle than at a spot "down and to the right" along the arctic circle in the diagram where it is 'noon'?

Yes or no.

*

Offline markjo

  • *
  • Posts: 3214
  • Zetetic Council runner-up
    • View Profile
Re: The Zig-Zaging Sun
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2018, 05:51:48 AM »
How does RET explain this geometry of the sun's movement?
By understanding trigonometry.  A sine wave (not a zig-zag) is the natural result of plotting circular motion over the course of a straight line.

https://betterexplained.com/articles/intuitive-understanding-of-sine-waves/
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

*

Offline Bobby Shafto

  • *
  • Posts: 1382
  • https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdv72TaxoaafQr8WD
    • View Profile
    • Bobby Shafto YouTube Channel
Re: The Zig-Zaging Sun
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2018, 06:10:09 AM »

This should produce a smoothly rotating sun around the Arctic that never sets.

In contradiction to this expected smoothness, we find videos of the sun from the Arctics which apparently zig-zaggs in the sky:

Why should it be smooth? Substantiate that statement.

"According to RET" it should undulate; the further you are from the pole, the more it will "zig zag." Only at 90° latitude will it be "smooth."  Explain why you think otherwise.


*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 5975
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: The Zig-Zaging Sun
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2018, 07:23:18 AM »
How does RET explain this geometry of the sun's movement?
By understanding trigonometry.  A sine wave (not a zig-zag) is the natural result of plotting circular motion over the course of a straight line.

https://betterexplained.com/articles/intuitive-understanding-of-sine-waves/


The sun is going around the observer. The observer isn't looking at the sun externally from its side.


This should produce a smoothly rotating sun around the Arctic that never sets.

In contradiction to this expected smoothness, we find videos of the sun from the Arctics which apparently zig-zaggs in the sky:

Why should it be smooth? Substantiate that statement.

"According to RET" it should undulate; the further you are from the pole, the more it will "zig zag." Only at 90° latitude will it be "smooth."  Explain why you think otherwise.

I don't see anything like what is seen in the video in any of the polar views of the Sun Path programs. The sun is low to the horizon and circular around the observer.

http://andrewmarsh.com/apps/releases/sunpath2d.html



Why not show us the Sun Path programs with a zig-zagging sun?
« Last Edit: December 29, 2018, 07:30:10 AM by Tom Bishop »

*

Offline Bobby Shafto

  • *
  • Posts: 1382
  • https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdv72TaxoaafQr8WD
    • View Profile
    • Bobby Shafto YouTube Channel
Re: The Zig-Zaging Sun
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2018, 07:27:35 AM »
You just did.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 5975
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: The Zig-Zaging Sun
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2018, 07:34:19 AM »
The sun is practically hugging the horizon in the above web app as it circles the observer. Show us these zig-zags.

*

Offline Bobby Shafto

  • *
  • Posts: 1382
  • https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdv72TaxoaafQr8WD
    • View Profile
    • Bobby Shafto YouTube Channel
Re: The Zig-Zaging Sun
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2018, 07:39:58 AM »
13° above the horizon to the North.
22° above the horizon to the West.
33° above the horizon to the South.
22° above the horizon to the East.

"Zig zag"

*

Offline Bobby Shafto

  • *
  • Posts: 1382
  • https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdv72TaxoaafQr8WD
    • View Profile
    • Bobby Shafto YouTube Channel
Re: The Zig-Zaging Sun
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2018, 07:44:26 AM »
The closer to 90° (North Pole) latitude, the less the variation.

On that day (June 8th), at 90° latitude, the sun goes around a "smooth" 22°, 51' all the way around.


*

Offline stack

  • *
  • Posts: 886
    • View Profile
Re: The Zig-Zaging Sun
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2018, 08:19:51 AM »
The sun is practically hugging the horizon in the above web app as it circles the observer. Show us these zig-zags.

I'm not seeing an RET issue:



It does the same thing in Antarctica, different time of year, only in the opposite direction:


Offline edby

  • *
  • Posts: 1066
    • View Profile
Re: The Zig-Zaging Sun
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2018, 09:50:52 AM »
I just put that scenario into Stellarium and it looks exactly like the video. But Stellarium is entirely consistent with RET.

Offline edby

  • *
  • Posts: 1066
    • View Profile
Re: The Zig-Zaging Sun
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2018, 10:06:11 AM »
And here are the sun altitudes (in degrees) for a location 70 deg N, 0W corresponding to each hour of a 24 hour clock.

If you copy these numbers into a spreadsheet (use text import wizard and choose comma separated delimiter), then graph the second column, you will see something v familiar.

1, 3.18
2, 3.78
3, 5.52
4, 8.32
5, 12.02
6, 16.42
7, 21.25
8, 26.25
9, 31.1
10, 35.48
11, 39
12, 41.3
13, 42.08
14, 41.27
15, 38.95
16, 35.42
17, 31.03
18, 26.18
19, 21.2
20, 16.38
21, 12.02
22, 8.33
23, 5.57
24, 3.85

shootingstar

Re: The Zig-Zaging Sun
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2018, 12:05:47 PM »
Tom,

If you place yourself at about 65N you will find that the Sun will follow exactly the type of behaviour that is shown in your original video.  I am using Starry Night v7 software which of course is modelled according to RET. I set the latitude to 65.5N but without changing the longitude setting that I already had. That placed me according to the software 352km NW of Trondheim in Norway. By fast forwarding on the month through a couple of years I saw the Sun follow exactly the same 'zig zagging' pattern that your time lapsed video link shows.

From 65N latitude the Sun never goes far enough below the horizon to make the sky fully dark.  You need to go further north in order for the sky to go fully dark as you would expect of the NP region.  That again can be demonstrated very nicely in StarryNight.  The free program Stellarium also shows the identical pattern.

So how then does your video provide evidence of FET?

Re: The Zig-Zaging Sun
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2018, 12:16:37 PM »
How is this "problem" any different from on a Flat Earth if the sun is circling above the north pole.
In that scenario if you're at the north pole (left below) then surely the sun would go around you in a straight line at a constant altitude.
If you're off centre (right below) then the sun would be closer to you at some points of the day and further at other points and thus appear higher or lower

If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 5975
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: The Zig-Zaging Sun
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2018, 01:25:37 PM »
I just put that scenario into Stellarium and it looks exactly like the video. But Stellarium is entirely consistent with RET.

Stellarium isn't an RET program. It's based on patterns. It's made to replicate what is seen in real life with the sun's odd tendency to seem to approach and recede from you in straight lines.

Download Celestia, which is a 3D planetarium program. Navigate to the higher latitudes and you will find that there is no zig-zagging sun. The sun floats above the horizon around the observer just as expected:

« Last Edit: December 29, 2018, 01:35:15 PM by Tom Bishop »

Offline edby

  • *
  • Posts: 1066
    • View Profile
Re: The Zig-Zaging Sun
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2018, 01:34:36 PM »
Quote
Download Celestia, which is a planetarium program. Navigate to the higher latitudes and you will find that there is no zig-zagging sun. The sun floats across above horizon just as expected:
 
You get the same effect with Stellarium if you choose the planetarium view.

Re: The Zig-Zaging Sun
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2018, 01:36:39 PM »
That red line and the blue line are converging at the edges of that screenshot. There is your zigging and zagging.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.