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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Another sunrise question
« Reply #80 on: January 02, 2019, 03:58:24 PM »
You are looking at the apparent sun at sunrise, not the actual sun.
Where is the actual sun?
Probably further North.
Probably?

Just somewhere "further North?"

That's some answer. Sounds more like one trying to form an explanation to match a predetermined conclusion than one trying to draw a conclusion from an observation, which is pretty much what this "projection on the atmoplane" is. If you can model that and show how it corresponds to what we observe, then you might have something. Until then, it's just "magic wand" stuff that can't even get more specific than "probably further North."

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Another sunrise question
« Reply #81 on: January 02, 2019, 05:57:40 PM »
The only things I have assumed were things that were already part of the model.

- Viewing distance is finite, whether we want to describe it as due to perspective or atmoplaner density. We cannot see forever across the earth. We can only see a very limited distance.

- The sun is a projection upon the atmoplane

Combine those two, and the sun can come from an Eastwardly direction as a logical consequence.

If interested futher, there are dozens if videos on YouTube by the wider Flat Earth community who came up with the concept a projected sun on their own, show footage of various sun anomalies, some videos better than others, &.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2019, 09:06:22 PM by Tom Bishop »

shootingstar

Re: Another sunrise question
« Reply #82 on: January 02, 2019, 06:00:57 PM »
I agree with the first assumption. Yes indeed we can only see a very limited distance across land.

But I have to ask you about that interesting comment about the Sun. How do you reach that assumption?!?  If it is a projection then where is it being projected from? To have a projected image you need a light source to produce the projection. And how do you explain the absorption lines we see in the spectrum?
« Last Edit: January 02, 2019, 06:08:11 PM by shootingstar »

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Another sunrise question
« Reply #83 on: January 02, 2019, 06:25:18 PM »
The only things I have assumed were things that were already part of the model.

- Viewing distance is finite, whether we want to describe it as due to perspective or atmospheric density. We cannot see forever across the earth. We can only see a very limited distance.

- The sun is a projection upon the atmoplane

Combine those two, and the sun can come from the East as a logical consequence.

You say "the model." What model? Yours? A TFES-endorsed model?

You say "the sun is a projection upon the atmoplane" is a part of "the model."

Explain this to me, either here or in a new Flat Earth Theory topic. Don't sent me to find someone else who may or may not be describing what you are saying. Explain it to me yourself. What plane? It's not a dome upon which an image of the sun is being projected, right? It's a flat plane? Parallel to the plane of the flat earth? And the actual sun that's projecting its light onto this atmoplane is where? Somewhere to the north? Where? Above projected atmoplane? Splotting its light down through the translucent "screen" of the atmoplane? Or below, projecting it's light up onto an opaque atmoplane? Does the actual sun move? Is it just the projection that spirals around above the earth between the Tropics?

I've not seen this modeled anywhere. Maybe someone's come up with some version of what you're describing, but you are asserting that it is part of "the model." So I'd love to understand more before I judge or try to devise a zetetic method for distinguishing between an actual sun over a globe vs. a projected sun over a flat earth.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Another sunrise question
« Reply #84 on: January 02, 2019, 06:53:41 PM »
This is the only page on the TFES wiki where I could find what you seem to be describing about the sun projecting its light upon an atmoplane.

https://wiki.tfes.org/Magnification_of_the_Sun_at_Sunset

This is attempting to explain how light emanating from a distance, but in-line with the eye/receptor, can be magnified by the intervening atmo- (air).

I cannot locate any dome-less model that explains the location of the sun as a projection upon the atmo-whatever but with the actual projecting sun on an azimuth/line of bearing different from that from which the projected light is coming.

I hereby challenge this claim of yours and sincerely look forward to seeing a model explain or illustrate how this is possible and how an actual sun could "probably further north."   

shootingstar

Re: Another sunrise question
« Reply #85 on: January 02, 2019, 07:48:29 PM »
Tom, with respect you surely don't expect to be taken seriously when you come out with these sort of comments do you? Mechanism seems to be quite a buzz word for flat Earth ideas right now so I guess you are going to tell us that the 'mechanism' for producing a projected Sun is one of those that is 'unknown' or can you come up with a more convincing explanation?

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Another sunrise question
« Reply #86 on: January 05, 2019, 03:31:05 PM »
...
I hereby challenge this claim of yours and sincerely look forward to seeing a model explain or illustrate how this is possible and how an actual sun could "probably further north."

I know you're busy on other topics and wouldn't be refusing to respond to a critic, but when you find a lull, Tom?

Substantiating this assertion of yours (and the Wiki) about how the sun projects itself onto an atmoplane could explain a lot. But so far you're just asserting it. What's the evidence? How does it work? How does it alter the apparent azimuth of the sun such that its projection could be easterly but the actual projecting sun probably to the north?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Another sunrise question
« Reply #87 on: January 06, 2019, 03:30:39 PM »
I believe that the matter in the OP was explained. There are plenty of sun projection YouTube videos if interested in that subject. At the moment we are talking about related evidence in the Solar spotlight thread. Perhaps at some point in the future I will go through and collect such pieces of evidence for the wiki.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 03:45:17 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Another sunrise question
« Reply #88 on: January 06, 2019, 04:39:04 PM »
I believe that the matter in the OP was explained.
I know you believe that, but it hasn't.  It's been asserted but not explained.

I challenge you to explain how, in a flat earth model, the sun can appear on one bearing (east) but actually be laterally displaced "probably further north."

I'm asking you since you're the one asserting it. If there's a Youtube video that explains what you're claiming, link it. I'll watch it.

But to date I can find no explanation or flat model explaining how a projecting sun casts light on the air so that it appears off azimuth to an observer. Explain how that works.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Another sunrise question
« Reply #89 on: January 06, 2019, 04:47:49 PM »
I know you believe that, but it hasn't.  It's been asserted but not explained.

It's explained. You are just asking for further evidence. One could say the same thing for the Round Earth model equinox. Where have it been proven that the tilt of the round earth is parallel to the distant sun as to cause the sun to come from the east? You have an explanation, but no demonstration.

To assess those further matters, we would need to look into other related subjects. RE would probably point at the sun triangulation experiments or whatnot. For FE I am telling you to look at other related evidence.

An explanation was asked for, and an explanation was provided.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 04:50:40 PM by Tom Bishop »

shootingstar

Re: Another sunrise question
« Reply #90 on: January 06, 2019, 04:55:16 PM »
The tilt of the Earth has nothing to do with the direction of where the Sun rises.  Two separate issues. Tilt of the Sun causes the seasons, rotation of the Earth (W-E) causes the Sun to rise in the east.  How is explaining something different to demonstrating it by the way?  Surely one and the same in the context of what we are talking about. 

I agree that in other aspects of life there is a distinction.  I can explain how a car works and then I can go out to the car and demonstrate it!  But this is different.

« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 05:15:11 PM by shootingstar »

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Another sunrise question
« Reply #91 on: January 06, 2019, 04:59:14 PM »
I know you believe that, but it hasn't.  It's been asserted but not explained.

It's explained. You are just asking for further evidence.

No. I'm asking you to explain it; not just assert it. (I would like to know how you know--aka evidence--but that's not what I'm asking for.)

If it's already been explained in this topic, link to the post(s) where it has because I'm not finding it.

 
One could say the same thing for the Round Earth model...
One could, but then that would be a diversion. How does it work on a flat earth?

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Offline BillO

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Re: Another sunrise question
« Reply #92 on: January 06, 2019, 10:26:51 PM »
It seems Bobby is merely asking for a simple explanation of how the sun could appear due east when it is actually "further north" (which I agree has not been provided, merely unsubstantiated claims and assertions have been made), yet Tom is asking for proof "that the tilt of the round earth is parallel to the distant sun [during an equinox]".  Seems to be a bit unfair.

As to proof, well Tom, it must follow from the definition of an equinox - "An equinox is the instant of time when the plane of Earth's equator passes through the center of the Sun.".  One would not have to prove it other than to demonstrate the nature of the solar system.  Which has been done many, many years ago, but of course you refuse to acknowledge it.
Here a quack, there a quack, everywhere a quack quack.

Quote from: Tom Bishop - Zetetic Council Member
The moon's orbital path has a diameter of 768,000 km. That is almost one million miles.