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Online markjo

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Re: How do sunsets work?
« Reply #40 on: December 05, 2018, 03:06:11 AM »
The corona can be seen every day with a coronagraph. It can be seen as easily as using a solar filter.
But can the corona be seen during a sunset?

You have not explained why the photosphere is so very different than the corona and the core of the sun.
This is the Flat Earth Theory forum and this thread is asking how sunsets work within FET.  If you wan to know how the RE sun works, then I suggest you start a new thread in the appropriate forum.

Comments such as:

"irrelvant"

"Doesn't matter"

"It's just cold, okay?"

... are all admissions that science cannot explain it's own theory. I expect you to keep this in mind the next time you try to assert some sort of superiority. Keep in mind that you can't explain your own theory.
Yes, in the same way that demanding RE explanations in a thread asking for an FET explanation is an admission that you can't explain your own theory.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

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Offline stack

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Re: How do sunsets work?
« Reply #41 on: December 05, 2018, 05:04:23 AM »
The corona can be seen every day with a coronagraph. It can be seen as easily as using a solar filter.

You're presuming that everyone observes a sunset via a coronagraph or a solar filter. Strange. That's not how I watch sunsets.

You have not explained why the photosphere is so very different than the corona and the core of the sun.

Neither have you. Apparently we don't know. GET doesn't have an answer, neither does FET. It's not a GET/FET issue, to be quite frank. Why you keep making it an issue for either camp is just a distraction and it's irrelevant to the topic of FET's explanation as to how sunsets work. Now if you want to conjure up some reason that since the corona is hotter than the surface as a way to explain how the sun sets on a flat earth, have at it. Just remember, 99% of the time, when humans view a sunset with their unaided eyeballs, they don't see the corona. So you have to address that.

Keep in mind that you can't explain your own theory.

On the contrary. GET has explained sunsets quite well, simply, and easily for centuries. It seems that FET is having a harder time given the wiki and your argument is predicated on a corona phenomena we rarely see when just simply gazing at a sunset 365 days a year.

Re: How do sunsets work?
« Reply #42 on: December 05, 2018, 05:28:57 AM »
Tom, how is that relevant to how sunsets work in FET?

The failure of science to explain this is entirely relevant.
I disagree.  FET explanations need to stand on their own merit, regardless of any perceived failures of RET.

Avoiding the topic is a submission of defeat. If you guys are unwilling or unable to explain or defend your RET, then I may as well be writing to myself.
The angle of the sun measured at different times of day and in different places proves a round earth, as you know.  No theory, fact, nothing to defend.

If Tom can understand this we can move on with other discussions.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 05:38:24 AM by inquisitive »

Re: How do sunsets work?
« Reply #43 on: December 05, 2018, 07:59:06 AM »
Sorry guys I had to go to bed and get some sleep.

Reading through some of the subsequent posts after my last I feel that several others agree that I have provided a more than adequate explanation of why the Suns disk is inconsistently bright  in the way it appears. Prior to that I also provided an answer to what causes sunset and sunrise which was the OP question.  So on that basis I am done with this particular thread. 

I am a regular observer of the Sun in several wavelengths.  My equipment is a Lunt LS152 Ha solar telescope equipped with a internal double stack module, which narrows the passband of the telescope, and a dedicated CaK module so I can observe the Sun at two distinct wavelengths at opposite ends of the spectrum as well as white light.  You can't usually see the chromosphere either which is where all the flame like prominences originate. You need a Ha solar telescope to see the chromosphere... or you can wait for a total solar eclipse.

Tom is obviously stuck in his own train of thought which as usual is dismissive of everything that science tells us about the Sun or anything else for that matter. Those of you who have got a handy coronagraph at home can study the elusive outermost regions of the solar atmosphere whenever you want to. Please let me know if you have!  If not you will just have to wait for the next total solar eclipse!
« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 08:04:10 AM by LoveScience »

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Offline rabinoz

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Re: How do sunsets work?
« Reply #44 on: December 05, 2018, 12:09:06 PM »
I do believe that is the sun. I am asking why the outer edges of the sun are significantly dimmer than the center of the sun like a projection on a movie screen.

Here was the image that was posted:



The duller "outer edge" in that photo is not the sun but just flare in the atmosphere and not removed by the "welding glass" filter being used.

Photos earlier in the day don't show that and neither does one through early morning mist (my photo):
 
June 30, 2018 06:43 Elev 2.0° Azm 64°

And a time lapse video using a high grade solar filter also shows much cleaner edges:

25 June - Time lapse of the Sun - with a visible sunspot.




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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: How do sunsets work?
« Reply #45 on: December 05, 2018, 12:16:14 PM »
I am not talking about that glow on the outside of the sun in the 12 o'clock image. The sun is inconsistently bright.

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Offline rabinoz

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Re: How do sunsets work?
« Reply #46 on: December 05, 2018, 12:37:15 PM »
Dr. Brooks says that it is an unsolved mystery that doesn't make sense under the theories of the RET sun.

Will you show that he is wrong and that it does make sense?

Or, will you continue to present unsolved mystery as fact that we need to disprove?
I fail to see any connection between the photos of the sun and any mystery about the temperature of the sun's corona.
No-one here is a solar expert but there is plenty written on the topic, such as:
      Why is the Sun's atmosphere hotter than its surface?
      Strong Evidence For Coronal Heating Theory Presented at 2015 TESS Meeting
And "science" is quite prepared to say that many things are not yet solved.
On coronial heating, there are hypotheses which explain it, but to my limited knowledge, none that could be called "the theory" as yet but I could easily be wrong.

But in the end, this has nothing to do with the topic, which is "How do sunsets work?"
I posted a few photos as evidence that the sun's angular size does not change from solar noon to sunset, apart from some slight reduction in height.
That does not fit with any flat earth explanation of sunsets.
The sharpness of the sun's image does not seem to fit with any explanations in "Magnification of the Sun at Sunset".

Re: How do sunsets work?
« Reply #47 on: December 05, 2018, 02:12:28 PM »
Dr. Brooks says that it is an unsolved mystery that doesn't make sense under the theories of the RET sun.

Will you show that he is wrong and that it does make sense?

Or, will you continue to present unsolved mystery as fact that we need to disprove?
I fail to see any connection between the photos of the sun and any mystery about the temperature of the sun's corona.
No-one here is a solar expert but there is plenty written on the topic, such as:
      Why is the Sun's atmosphere hotter than its surface?
      Strong Evidence For Coronal Heating Theory Presented at 2015 TESS Meeting
And "science" is quite prepared to say that many things are not yet solved.
On coronial heating, there are hypotheses which explain it, but to my limited knowledge, none that could be called "the theory" as yet but I could easily be wrong.

But in the end, this has nothing to do with the topic, which is "How do sunsets work?"
I posted a few photos as evidence that the sun's angular size does not change from solar noon to sunset, apart from some slight reduction in height.
That does not fit with any flat earth explanation of sunsets.
The sharpness of the sun's image does not seem to fit with any explanations in "Magnification of the Sun at Sunset".
Yes, Tom's claim seems to be that the sun stays the same size because it is in fact a projection on something in the atmoplane. The problem, as I pointed out in my earlier post, is this turns a LOT of the FE hypothesis on it's head. It's no longer possible to say how high the sun is, the standard 30ish mile diameter is now wrong, it now needs to be a more focused light source in order for the entire sky to not be lit up, and it does nothing to help explain how a sunset happens or why it doesn't change size during the day (under this paradigm it should actually grow LARGER throughout the day). But he remains hung up on apparently not being able to grasp that the corona (which isn't generally seen) being hotter than the surface of the sun, has no bearing on why at least some images have parts of the sun seemingly brighter than other parts.

Re: How do sunsets work?
« Reply #48 on: December 05, 2018, 03:25:18 PM »
The sign of a good theory is consistency and simplicity.  You don't have to force or stretch any of the pieces to get them to fit.  Until recently I had basically taken it as a given that everyone knew the shape of the Earth etc. But then a friend mentioned about the FES and I thought... surely not.. this is the 21st century.

Knowing a reasonable amount about the Sun it opened my eyes wide when I considered that there are really people out there who think the Sun is only 30 miles wide and 3000 miles away.  If that were true it would tear us and the rest of the solar system apart before we knew what was happening!
« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 03:27:29 PM by LoveScience »

Offline Spingo

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Re: How do sunsets work?
« Reply #49 on: December 05, 2018, 04:26:05 PM »
Where did LoveScience solve one of the "most significant unsolved problems in astrophysics"? Please quote it for us.

I  think it might give a more even playing field if you laid out your flat earth alternative explanations on the following:
The flat earth’s Suns primary source.
The exact processes involved in the creation of the energy.

While currently explanations as to the difference in temperatures in different portions of the sun are still being researched the basic workings of the sun, nuclear fusion, is well understood. No where in the flat earth wiki does it offer any explanation as how the flat earth sun is powered, perhaps you could explain by answering the two questions.

Offline Spingo

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Re: How do sunsets work?
« Reply #50 on: December 05, 2018, 05:04:12 PM »
I am not talking about that glow on the outside of the sun in the 12 o'clock image. The sun is inconsistently bright.

One thing puzzles me that perhaps you could explain. Having looked up a few references on the sun I see that there are numerous institutions around the world all devoted to study of the sun, and as you so rightly pointed out earlier, there are still many unknowns and unanswered questions. Though having an unanswered question or two does not put what you do know into doubt. The problem is of all the institutions I came across none of them, as far as I could tell, supported your view on the sun in regard to either distance or size or any think else your wiki states for that matter. From that I concluded their views would be very different from your own. The question is what institutions are doing the research that backs up your own position?
The other thing troubling me is the scientist you earlier quoted Dr. David H. Brooks of George Mason University, is a thoracic surgeon! specialising in lung transplants! Which when I last looked had little to do with the sun! Though to be fair there may be two of them.

Regardless, while the whole temperature thing is still unexplained, why do you think that none of the scientists involved in that paper you linked to would agree with you or your flat earth wiki on anything to do with the sun?

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Offline rabinoz

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Re: How do sunsets work?
« Reply #51 on: December 06, 2018, 03:22:38 AM »
I am not talking about that glow on the outside of the sun in the 12 o'clock image. The sun is inconsistently bright.
What do you mean by "The sun is inconsistently bright"?
The corona might be extremely hot but it is so tenuous that it radiates little visible light.
But, even if it cannot yet be explained, why is it any evidence against the Heliocentric Solar System?

Offline Pinky

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Re: How do sunsets work?
« Reply #52 on: December 07, 2018, 03:15:02 PM »
I don't think my questions have been answered so far, or maybe I simply overlooked it. It feels like this discussion has gone astray.

1. Does the visible Sun-disc shrink or does it not shrink? Which Wiki-page in the FE-Wiki is correct and which one is false?
2. Within the FE-model, what causes the visible Sun-disc to suddenly (over the course of a few minutes) appear and disappear at sunrise/sunset?

Re: How do sunsets work?
« Reply #53 on: December 07, 2018, 03:22:37 PM »
I don't think my questions have been answered so far, or maybe I simply overlooked it. It feels like this discussion has gone astray.

1. Does the visible Sun-disc shrink or does it not shrink? Which Wiki-page in the FE-Wiki is correct and which one is false?
2. Within the FE-model, what causes the visible Sun-disc to suddenly (over the course of a few minutes) appear and disappear at sunrise/sunset?
1. The sun only 'shrinks' at sunset. Both pages are correct. The size doesn't change during the day, then at sunset the sun appears to vanish/shrink.
2. FEH perspective.

Offline Pinky

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Re: How do sunsets work?
« Reply #54 on: December 07, 2018, 05:05:28 PM »
I don't think my questions have been answered so far, or maybe I simply overlooked it. It feels like this discussion has gone astray.

1. Does the visible Sun-disc shrink or does it not shrink? Which Wiki-page in the FE-Wiki is correct and which one is false?
2. Within the FE-model, what causes the visible Sun-disc to suddenly (over the course of a few minutes) appear and disappear at sunrise/sunset?
1. The sun only 'shrinks' at sunset. Both pages are correct. The size doesn't change during the day, then at sunset the sun appears to vanish/shrink.
2. FEH perspective.

According to https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Setting_of_the_Sun it shrinks continuously throughout the day.
Except we don't see it shrinking because https://wiki.tfes.org/Magnification_of_the_Sun_at_Sunset .
Except when it suddenly goes from non-shrinking to shrinking.

When its real angular size in the sky shrinks, but it stays the same observed size throughout the day, shouldn't the Sun get darker? You know, because less and less radiation is coming from the same observed area?

Also, what is FEH?