The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Theory => Topic started by: Pinky on November 29, 2018, 08:49:10 AM

Title: How do sunsets work?
Post by: Pinky on November 29, 2018, 08:49:10 AM
I have read these
https://wiki.tfes.org/Sun
https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Setting_of_the_Sun
https://wiki.tfes.org/Magnification_of_the_Sun_at_Sunset

And I am more confused than ever.

The second Wiki-page says that sunset is due to the Sun moving so far away that its observed size shrinks beyond the resolution of the eye.

But the third Wiki-page says that the observed size doesn't shrink despite the Sun moving further away, because of light-scattering in the atmosphere.

If the Sun maintains its observed size despite moving further away, then why does the Sun disappear eventually? Why is there a cutoff? Why does the Sun maintain a certain observed size throughout the day and then the observed size suddenly shrinks within a few minutes and it's gone?

How far away is the Sun when it goes from non-shrinking to shrinking?



The second Wiki-page mentions some non-transparent atmospheric layer that dims sunlight, but that doesn't explain the sharp cutoff and it doesn't explain why the Sun-disc shrinks asymmetrically while maintaining its radius.
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: mael_cookie on December 02, 2018, 05:55:36 PM
Because the earth is an oblate spheroid. A globe. Easy answer.
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: junker on December 02, 2018, 07:22:05 PM
Because the earth is an oblate spheroid. A globe. Easy answer.

Refrain from low-content posting in the upper fora. Warned.
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: Tom Bishop on December 02, 2018, 08:08:37 PM
If you feel that it isn't clear, feel free to help rewrite it to make a better distinction between the actual sun and the visible sun.
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: Spingo on December 04, 2018, 09:05:11 PM
If you feel that it isn't clear, feel free to help rewrite it to make a better distinction between the actual sun and the visible sun.

Even after reading the Wiki on the sun I’m still not sure what you are reffering to when you mention, the actual sun and the visible sun, for is the actual sun not also visible?
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: rabinoz on December 04, 2018, 09:37:49 PM
If you feel that it isn't clear, feel free to help rewrite it to make a better distinction between the actual sun and the visible sun.
Sorry to be so late posting this, but maybe you could explain why there is any "distinction between the actual sun and the visible sun" other than some slight refraction when the sun appears on the horizon?

I do tend to believe what I see, unless given a good reason why that is incorrect and sunsets I see look like this:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/9gx2rtvrzytmrx7/07-Weipa%20Sunset.jpg?dl=1)
Sun near setting at Weipa
               
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/mda31bn2xh10x4w/13-Weipa%20Sunset.jpg?dl=1)
Sunset at Weipa
Not only that but the apparent size of the setting sun is the same as when overhead apart from a slight reduction in height:

The real sun[/i] certainly appears to move across the sky without changing in size as in these photos taken from a video made by Matrix Decode with very good photos of the sun through a filter (an arc welder's glass) shown  at a number of times of day from 12:00 PM to 7:00 PM on 9/March/2016 in Malaga, Spain.

Here are three afternoon ones from his video and they do an excellent job of showing that the sun size does not change!
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/5uz5udkvnj8rxd4/20160711%20-%20Sun%2012.00%2048xZoom.jpg?dl=1)  (https://www.dropbox.com/s/xsvlg3ot95fmmf6/20160711%20-%20Sun%2015.00%2048xZoom.jpg?dl=1)  (https://www.dropbox.com/s/lxfxxibtutm20k3/20160711%20-%20Sun%2019.00%2048xZoom.jpg?dl=1)
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: Tom Bishop on December 04, 2018, 10:39:32 PM
You posted what appears to be light projected onto the atmosphere. Please explain why the outer edges of the sun are dimmer than its center.
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: inquisitive on December 04, 2018, 10:42:58 PM
You posted what appears to be light projected onto the atmosphere. Please explain why the outer edges of the sun are dimmer than its center.
Are you saying those are not pictures of the sun?
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: Tom Bishop on December 04, 2018, 10:46:11 PM
I do believe that is the sun. I am asking why the outer edges of the sun are significantly dimmer than the center of the sun like a projection on a movie screen.

Here was the image that was posted:

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/5uz5udkvnj8rxd4/20160711%20-%20Sun%2012.00%2048xZoom.jpg?dl=1)

Here is another example, of a solar eclipse as seen through an eclipse filter:

(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/c/c0/Solar_eclipse_brightness.gif)

The brightest areas are at the center of the sun.

Projetor Hotspot:

(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/thumb/b/b9/Projector_hotspotting.png/570px-Projector_hotspotting.png)

Source: Hotspotting or brightness inhomogeneity (https://www.jennyreadresearch.com/research/lab-set-up/experience-with-christie-matrix-2500-lcd-projectors/hotspotting-or-brightness-inhomogeneity/)

The hotspot is also true for laser beams (https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Sectional-views-of-far-field-spot-for-traditional-and-novel-laser-fuze-structures-a_fig9_317725590).

Again, I ask, why should this be true for the sun?
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: LoveScience on December 04, 2018, 11:25:22 PM
Sunsets for the same reason that sunrises occur. The Earth is spinning and this means that different parts of the surface turn towards (sunrise) and then away (sunset) from the direction of the Sun. 


Regarding mael_cookies post, why are people warned for contributing information about a thread which is correct?  A concise answer without any waffle.  What's the problem?
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: LoveScience on December 04, 2018, 11:31:27 PM
Tom, regarding your question...
Quote
I do believe that is the sun. I am asking why the outer edges of the sun are significantly dimmer than the center of the sun like a projection on a movie screen.


The answer I have provided elsewhere but I will say it again.  This is a well known phenomenon we see in 'white light' called limb darkening.  The Suns 'surface' is actually a layer of its atmosphere known as the photosphere. Looking in the centre of the visible disk we are looking directly down into the lower levels of the photosphere where the plasma is hotter than in the upper levels. Hotter is always brighter on the Sun.  At the edges we are looking more obliquely across the upper layers only where the plasma is cooler and hence darker.  This gives the effect of limb darkening.


When observing the Sun at specific wavelengths such as Ha and CaK we are looking at light emissions coming from the chromosphere (sphere of colour) The chromosphere is above the photosphere and is normally invisible without special filters apart from during a total solar eclipse.  If you look closely at photos showing totality you will notice the reddish prominences looking like flames arcing away from the solar limb. These are coming from the chromosphere.   

The chromosphere, though much hotter than the photosphere is emitting light only at specific wavelengths and therefore the darkening effect is much less.
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: Tom Bishop on December 04, 2018, 11:33:59 PM
Lets see what Dr. David H. Brooks of George Mason University has to say about this:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/08/170803091936.htm

Quote from: David H. Brooks
The Sun's surface, the photosphere, has a temperature of around 6000 degrees, but the outer atmosphere, the corona -- best seen from Earth during total solar eclipses -- is several hundred times hotter. How the corona is heated to millions of degrees is one of the most significant unsolved problems in astrophysics.

"Why the Sun's corona is so hot is a long-standing puzzle. It's as if a flame were coming out of an ice cube. It doesn't make any sense!"

The sun's corona (https://www.astro.cz/apod_data/2017/08/TotalityCanada2Westlake_022679_d1.jpg) is the wispy 'atmosphere' the sun, seen only during the moment of Total Solar Eclipse, or with a coronagraph.

6000 degrees is also significantly different compared to 15 million degrees Kelvin for the inner center of the sun.

Why are the outer layers of the sun significantly dimmer than the center? As admitted, it is a mystery that doesn't make any sense under the current theories of the sun.
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: LoveScience on December 04, 2018, 11:43:55 PM
As regards Davids comments about the very hot corona I completely agree with him but that has nothing to do with the limb darkening effect we see in white light.  The Sun has an upper photospheric temperature of about 5500K and a core temp of 15 million K as he says.  We know the core temp from the fact that hydrogen burning (into helium) by a method known and the P-P chain is taking place. In higher mass stars the CNO cycle is more dominant. The light we see from the Sun today is the byproduct of nuclear fusion reactions that took place between 100,000 and 1 million years ago. What are initially released as gamma ray photons lose energy from interactions in the convection and radiation zones within the Sun. The loss of energy converts them into X ray photons, then UV photons until eventually they enter the optical band by the time they reach the photosphere at which point they escape into space. The journey to Earth then takes 8 minutes and 20 seconds travelling at 299,792,458 m/s.

The corona is the outermost layer of the solar atmosphere and lies beyond the chromosphere.  It is divided into the inner and outer corona and its total extent out into the solar system is not exactly known. 

Surely it is the mysteries of science that creates the fascination of it. If we knew everything about the Sun there would be no incentive to carry on studying it. We are very fortunate in having the Sun at such close distance from us compared with all the other stars. It allows us to study a G2 type main sequence star in the mid term of its evolution. 
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: Tom Bishop on December 04, 2018, 11:50:06 PM
Dr. Brooks says that it is an unsolved mystery that doesn't make sense under the theories of the RET sun.

Will you show that he is wrong and that it does make sense?

Or, will you continue to present unsolved mystery as fact that we need to disprove?
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: markjo on December 04, 2018, 11:50:40 PM
Tom, how is that relevant to how sunsets work in FET?
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: Tom Bishop on December 04, 2018, 11:59:14 PM
Tom, how is that relevant to how sunsets work in FET?

The failure of science to explain this is entirely relevant.

See the third link in the OP: https://wiki.tfes.org/Magnification_of_the_Sun_at_Sunset
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: LoveScience on December 05, 2018, 12:03:01 AM
The failure of science to explain what exactly?  Science is about learning and working towards understanding what we don't yet know. Or is that irrelevant to you as well?
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: Tom Bishop on December 05, 2018, 12:08:51 AM
The failure of science to explain what exactly?  Science is about learning and working towards understanding what we don't yet know. Or is that irrelevant to you as well?

It is not irrelevant to me at all.

Science is working towards better understanding. I agree. We explain the inconsistent brightness better in our Wiki as being a cause of a projection upon the atmoplane, whereas RET cannot explain it.

If you want to challenge it, then we expect you to explain this under your Round Earth Theory.
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: stack on December 05, 2018, 12:21:06 AM
The failure of science to explain what exactly?  Science is about learning and working towards understanding what we don't yet know. Or is that irrelevant to you as well?

It is not irrelevant to me at all.

Science is working towards better understanding. I agree. We explain the inconsistent brightness better in our Wiki as being a cause of a projection upon the atmoplane, whereas RET cannot explain it.

If you want to challenge it, then we expect you to explain this under your Round Earth Theory.

I wouldn't say that "projection upon the atmoplane" is an explanation. As evidenced by?

Also curious why you're citing a paper funded by NASA, wouldn't that immediately discredit it in your eyes?

"The study, published in Nature Communications and funded by the NASA Hinode program".
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: Tom Bishop on December 05, 2018, 12:25:44 AM
I wouldn't say that "projection upon the atmoplane" is an explanation. As evidenced by?

As evidenced by the sun. I am waiting for you to provide a better explanation.

If you cannot explain this under your model, then I would expect you to stop pretending that RET does provide the better explanation for this.
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: markjo on December 05, 2018, 12:25:49 AM
Tom, how is that relevant to how sunsets work in FET?

The failure of science to explain this is entirely relevant.
I disagree.  FET explanations need to stand on their own merit, regardless of any perceived failures of RET.
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: Tom Bishop on December 05, 2018, 12:32:34 AM
Tom, how is that relevant to how sunsets work in FET?

The failure of science to explain this is entirely relevant.
I disagree.  FET explanations need to stand on their own merit, regardless of any perceived failures of RET.

Avoiding the topic is a submission of defeat. If you guys are unwilling or unable to explain or defend your RET, then I may as well be writing to myself.
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: stack on December 05, 2018, 12:37:01 AM
Tom, how is that relevant to how sunsets work in FET?

The failure of science to explain this is entirely relevant.
I disagree.  FET explanations need to stand on their own merit, regardless of any perceived failures of RET.

Avoiding the topic is a submission of defeat. If you guys are unwilling or unable to explain or defend your RET, then I may as well be writing to myself.

What exactly is the topic we are to be defeated by?
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: Tom Bishop on December 05, 2018, 12:37:44 AM
What exactly is the topic we are to be defeated by?

See the thread. You guys are unable to explain why the sun is inconsistently bright.
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: LoveScience on December 05, 2018, 12:51:20 AM
I already have explained why the Sun is inconsistently bright or did you miss that bit?
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: Tom Bishop on December 05, 2018, 12:58:27 AM
You have not explained anything other than to declare it to be inconsistently bright. Why is the sun inconsistently bright? Why should the temperatures of the sun's corona, photosphere, and core be so different?
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: stack on December 05, 2018, 01:11:51 AM
You have not explained anything other than to declare it to be inconsistently bright. Why is the sun inconsistently bright? Why should the temperatures of the sun's corona, photosphere, and core be so different?

The answer in the wiki is in regard to:

Q: If the sun is disappearing (due) to perspective, shouldn't it get smaller as it recedes?
A: The sun remains the same size as it recedes into the distance due to a known magnification effect caused by the intense rays of light passing through the strata of the atmolayer.

The contention is that that is not the case. I fail to see why the question of "Why is the sun inconsistently bright?" is relevant. And the FET wiki explanation doesn't address this either.
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: Tom Bishop on December 05, 2018, 01:27:36 AM
It does address it. Projections are inconsistently bright.

You refuse to address this for your RET, while simultaneously claiming that your RET provides the better explanations. If it does, explain it.
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: Curious Squirrel on December 05, 2018, 01:28:53 AM
It does address it. Projections are inconsistently bright.

You refuse to address this for your RET, while simultaneously claiming that your RET provides the better explanations. If it does, explain it.
1. LoveScience DID give you the RE explanation for it on the previous page. If you didn't understand it try reading it again, or ask for clarification.
2. The sun being a projection doesn't explain the *why* of it not changing size throughout the day. If I move a light source projecting onto a screen around behind the screen, the projection will change size too.
3. The sun being a projection (and thus never seeing the actual sun) raises a number of problems for FE. You no longer have any idea of anything to do with it's location/size, and you now have an even greater conundrum in explaining just what powers it (this was already a major issue, but as a projection acting in the way you claim the actual sun must be SMALLER than the projection).
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: Tom Bishop on December 05, 2018, 01:29:55 AM
Where did LoveScience solve one of the "most significant unsolved problems in astrophysics"? Please quote it for us.
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: Curious Squirrel on December 05, 2018, 01:42:12 AM
Where did LoveScience solve one of the "most significant unsolved problems in astrophysics"? Please quote it for us.
He explained why the sun is inconsistently bright, which is what you were asking. That's not the same thing as why the outer parts of the sun are hotter. If you wish to provide an FE explanation for why they're hotter feel free, but I suspect you don't actually think they're hotter under the FEH.
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: Tom Bishop on December 05, 2018, 01:50:12 AM
I don't see a quote where one of the "most significant unsolved problems in astrophysics" was solved. Please quote it.

The inconsistent brightness of the sun is a mystery in Round Earth Theory. See the article posted on the previous page. If you are claiming that the Round Earth Theory provides the better explanations then I expect you guys to solve this mystery.
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: Curious Squirrel on December 05, 2018, 01:55:57 AM
I don't see a quote where one of the "most significant unsolved problems in astrophysics" was solved. Please quote it.

The inconsistent brightness of the sun is a mystery in Round Earth Theory. See the article posted on the previous page. If you are claiming that the Round Earth Theory provides the better explanations then I expect you guys to solve this mystery.
The mystery is "Why is the corona hotter than the center" not "Why is the sun inconsistently bright." I don't know how to put it more plainly. We know why the sun is inconsistently bright:

Tom, regarding your question...
Quote
I do believe that is the sun. I am asking why the outer edges of the sun are significantly dimmer than the center of the sun like a projection on a movie screen.


The answer I have provided elsewhere but I will say it again.  This is a well known phenomenon we see in 'white light' called limb darkening.  The Suns 'surface' is actually a layer of its atmosphere known as the photosphere. Looking in the centre of the visible disk we are looking directly down into the lower levels of the photosphere where the plasma is hotter than in the upper levels. Hotter is always brighter on the Sun.  At the edges we are looking more obliquely across the upper layers only where the plasma is cooler and hence darker.  This gives the effect of limb darkening.


When observing the Sun at specific wavelengths such as Ha and CaK we are looking at light emissions coming from the chromosphere (sphere of colour) The chromosphere is above the photosphere and is normally invisible without special filters apart from during a total solar eclipse.  If you look closely at photos showing totality you will notice the reddish prominences looking like flames arcing away from the solar limb. These are coming from the chromosphere.   

The chromosphere, though much hotter than the photosphere is emitting light only at specific wavelengths and therefore the darkening effect is much less.

We DON'T know:
Quote
"Why the Sun's corona is so hot is a long-standing puzzle. It's as if a flame were coming out of an ice cube. It doesn't make any sense!" - David H Brook
They are NOT the same thing.
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: Tom Bishop on December 05, 2018, 02:00:58 AM
The explanation given by LoveScience is that the plasma is cooler there, and therefore darker. I have some doubts that a scientific journal or the field of Astrophysics will accept that explanation and consider this matter solved. Do you think that they would consider it solved based on that?
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: stack on December 05, 2018, 02:03:54 AM
The explanation given by LoveScience is that the plasma is cooler there, and therefore darker. I have some doubts that a scientific journal or the field of Astrophysics will accept that explanation and consider this matter solved. Do you think that they would consider it solved based on that?

The NASA paper you cited is talked about the heat of the corona. We typically don't view the corona in an everyday sunset.

"The corona is usually hidden by the bright light of the Sun's surface. That makes it difficult to see without using special instruments. However, the corona can be seen during a total solar eclipse."

The corona is not relevant to the discussion.
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: Tom Bishop on December 05, 2018, 02:07:19 AM
The explanation given by LoveScience is that the plasma is cooler there, and therefore darker. I have some doubts that a scientific journal or the field of Astrophysics will accept that explanation and consider this matter solved. Do you think that they would consider it solved based on that?

The NASA paper you cited is talked about the heat of the corona. We typically don't view the corona in an everyday sunset.

"The corona is usually hidden by the bright light of the Sun's surface. That makes it difficult to see without using special instruments. However, the corona can be seen during a total solar eclipse."

The corona is not relevant to the discussion.

It's talking about the cool outer photosphere, and how odd it is that the corona is so much hotter. The outer photosphere is the dim areas we saw in the images of the sun. Directly relevant.

The core and corona of the sun is so much hotter. Why?
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: Curious Squirrel on December 05, 2018, 02:07:59 AM
The explanation given by LoveScience is that the plasma is cooler there, and therefore darker. I have some doubts that a scientific journal or the field of Astrophysics will accept that explanation and consider this matter solved. Do you think that they would consider it solved based on that?
I'm neither a scientific journal, nor an Astrophysicist so I have no idea. I can say his explanation seems logical to me at least, but that's about it. Last I checked you weren't either of the aforementioned entities either, so from what knowledge do you claim to know what they would accept?
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: stack on December 05, 2018, 02:17:07 AM
The explanation given by LoveScience is that the plasma is cooler there, and therefore darker. I have some doubts that a scientific journal or the field of Astrophysics will accept that explanation and consider this matter solved. Do you think that they would consider it solved based on that?

The NASA paper you cited is talked about the heat of the corona. We typically don't view the corona in an everyday sunset.

"The corona is usually hidden by the bright light of the Sun's surface. That makes it difficult to see without using special instruments. However, the corona can be seen during a total solar eclipse."

The corona is not relevant to the discussion.

It's talking about the cool outer photosphere, and how odd it is that the corona is so much hotter. The outer photosphere is the dim areas we saw in the images of the sun. Directly relevant.

The core and corona of the sun is so much hotter. Why?

Correct, the cooler photosphere is what we see as the edge of the sun at sunset. Why the corona, which is above and outside the photosphere, and usually seen only during an eclipse and not your every day sunset, is hotter than the surface of the sun (the photosphere)? You got me. But we don't see the corona everyday. We do see the cooler photosphere and there is a non-FE/non-GE reason why it appears dimmed. You're mixing two things together that shouldn't be.
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: markjo on December 05, 2018, 02:49:43 AM
The explanation given by LoveScience is that the plasma is cooler there, and therefore darker. I have some doubts that a scientific journal or the field of Astrophysics will accept that explanation and consider this matter solved. Do you think that they would consider it solved based on that?

The NASA paper you cited is talked about the heat of the corona. We typically don't view the corona in an everyday sunset.

"The corona is usually hidden by the bright light of the Sun's surface. That makes it difficult to see without using special instruments. However, the corona can be seen during a total solar eclipse."

The corona is not relevant to the discussion.

It's talking about the cool outer photosphere, and how odd it is that the corona is so much hotter. The outer photosphere is the dim areas we saw in the images of the sun. Directly relevant.

The core and corona of the sun is so much hotter. Why?
Tom, if the outer photosphere is the dim area in question, then why is the unseen corona relevant?
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: Tom Bishop on December 05, 2018, 02:51:52 AM
The corona can be seen every day with a coronagraph. It can be seen as easily as using a solar filter. You have not explained why the photosphere is so very different than the corona and the core of the sun.

Comments such as:

"irrelvant"

"Doesn't matter"

"It's just cold, okay?"

... are all admissions that science cannot explain it's own theory. I expect you to keep this in mind the next time you try to assert some sort of superiority. Keep in mind that you can't explain your own theory.
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: markjo on December 05, 2018, 03:06:11 AM
The corona can be seen every day with a coronagraph. It can be seen as easily as using a solar filter.
But can the corona be seen during a sunset?

You have not explained why the photosphere is so very different than the corona and the core of the sun.
This is the Flat Earth Theory forum and this thread is asking how sunsets work within FET.  If you wan to know how the RE sun works, then I suggest you start a new thread in the appropriate forum.

Comments such as:

"irrelvant"

"Doesn't matter"

"It's just cold, okay?"

... are all admissions that science cannot explain it's own theory. I expect you to keep this in mind the next time you try to assert some sort of superiority. Keep in mind that you can't explain your own theory.
Yes, in the same way that demanding RE explanations in a thread asking for an FET explanation is an admission that you can't explain your own theory.
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: stack on December 05, 2018, 05:04:23 AM
The corona can be seen every day with a coronagraph. It can be seen as easily as using a solar filter.

You're presuming that everyone observes a sunset via a coronagraph or a solar filter. Strange. That's not how I watch sunsets.

You have not explained why the photosphere is so very different than the corona and the core of the sun.

Neither have you. Apparently we don't know. GET doesn't have an answer, neither does FET. It's not a GET/FET issue, to be quite frank. Why you keep making it an issue for either camp is just a distraction and it's irrelevant to the topic of FET's explanation as to how sunsets work. Now if you want to conjure up some reason that since the corona is hotter than the surface as a way to explain how the sun sets on a flat earth, have at it. Just remember, 99% of the time, when humans view a sunset with their unaided eyeballs, they don't see the corona. So you have to address that.

Keep in mind that you can't explain your own theory.

On the contrary. GET has explained sunsets quite well, simply, and easily for centuries. It seems that FET is having a harder time given the wiki and your argument is predicated on a corona phenomena we rarely see when just simply gazing at a sunset 365 days a year.
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: inquisitive on December 05, 2018, 05:28:57 AM
Tom, how is that relevant to how sunsets work in FET?

The failure of science to explain this is entirely relevant.
I disagree.  FET explanations need to stand on their own merit, regardless of any perceived failures of RET.

Avoiding the topic is a submission of defeat. If you guys are unwilling or unable to explain or defend your RET, then I may as well be writing to myself.
The angle of the sun measured at different times of day and in different places proves a round earth, as you know.  No theory, fact, nothing to defend.

If Tom can understand this we can move on with other discussions.
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: LoveScience on December 05, 2018, 07:59:06 AM
Sorry guys I had to go to bed and get some sleep.

Reading through some of the subsequent posts after my last I feel that several others agree that I have provided a more than adequate explanation of why the Suns disk is inconsistently bright  in the way it appears. Prior to that I also provided an answer to what causes sunset and sunrise which was the OP question.  So on that basis I am done with this particular thread. 

I am a regular observer of the Sun in several wavelengths.  My equipment is a Lunt LS152 Ha solar telescope equipped with a internal double stack module, which narrows the passband of the telescope, and a dedicated CaK module so I can observe the Sun at two distinct wavelengths at opposite ends of the spectrum as well as white light.  You can't usually see the chromosphere either which is where all the flame like prominences originate. You need a Ha solar telescope to see the chromosphere... or you can wait for a total solar eclipse.

Tom is obviously stuck in his own train of thought which as usual is dismissive of everything that science tells us about the Sun or anything else for that matter. Those of you who have got a handy coronagraph at home can study the elusive outermost regions of the solar atmosphere whenever you want to. Please let me know if you have!  If not you will just have to wait for the next total solar eclipse!
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: rabinoz on December 05, 2018, 12:09:06 PM
I do believe that is the sun. I am asking why the outer edges of the sun are significantly dimmer than the center of the sun like a projection on a movie screen.

Here was the image that was posted:

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/5uz5udkvnj8rxd4/20160711%20-%20Sun%2012.00%2048xZoom.jpg?dl=1)

The duller "outer edge" in that photo is not the sun but just flare in the atmosphere and not removed by the "welding glass" filter being used.

Photos earlier in the day don't show that and neither does one through early morning mist (my photo):
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/l6k11ydis3f01vf/20160711%20-%20Sun%2010.00%2048xZoom.jpg?dl=1)  (https://www.dropbox.com/s/fqeix0vqwgum823/P1030048%2020180530%2006.43.34%20Elev%202.0%C2%B0%20Azm%2064.1%C2%B0%20size%200.54%C2%B0%20x%200.50%C2%B0.JPG?dl=1)
June 30, 2018 06:43 Elev 2.0° Azm 64°

And a time lapse video using a high grade solar filter also shows much cleaner edges:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKqRBhgmuPY
25 June - Time lapse of the Sun - with a visible sunspot.



Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: Tom Bishop on December 05, 2018, 12:16:14 PM
I am not talking about that glow on the outside of the sun in the 12 o'clock image. The sun is inconsistently bright.
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: rabinoz on December 05, 2018, 12:37:15 PM
Dr. Brooks says that it is an unsolved mystery that doesn't make sense under the theories of the RET sun.

Will you show that he is wrong and that it does make sense?

Or, will you continue to present unsolved mystery as fact that we need to disprove?
I fail to see any connection between the photos of the sun and any mystery about the temperature of the sun's corona.
No-one here is a solar expert but there is plenty written on the topic, such as:
      Why is the Sun's atmosphere hotter than its surface? (https://www.wired.co.uk/article/sun-coronal-heating-mystery)
      Strong Evidence For Coronal Heating Theory Presented at 2015 TESS Meeting (https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/sounding-rockets/strong-evidence-for-coronal-heating-theory-presented-at-2015-tess-meeting)
And "science" is quite prepared to say that many things are not yet solved.
On coronial heating, there are hypotheses which explain it, but to my limited knowledge, none that could be called "the theory" as yet but I could easily be wrong.

But in the end, this has nothing to do with the topic, which is "How do sunsets work?"
I posted a few photos as evidence that the sun's angular size does not change from solar noon to sunset, apart from some slight reduction in height.
That does not fit with any flat earth explanation of sunsets.
The sharpness of the sun's image does not seem to fit with any explanations in "Magnification of the Sun at Sunset".
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: Curious Squirrel on December 05, 2018, 02:12:28 PM
Dr. Brooks says that it is an unsolved mystery that doesn't make sense under the theories of the RET sun.

Will you show that he is wrong and that it does make sense?

Or, will you continue to present unsolved mystery as fact that we need to disprove?
I fail to see any connection between the photos of the sun and any mystery about the temperature of the sun's corona.
No-one here is a solar expert but there is plenty written on the topic, such as:
      Why is the Sun's atmosphere hotter than its surface? (https://www.wired.co.uk/article/sun-coronal-heating-mystery)
      Strong Evidence For Coronal Heating Theory Presented at 2015 TESS Meeting (https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/sounding-rockets/strong-evidence-for-coronal-heating-theory-presented-at-2015-tess-meeting)
And "science" is quite prepared to say that many things are not yet solved.
On coronial heating, there are hypotheses which explain it, but to my limited knowledge, none that could be called "the theory" as yet but I could easily be wrong.

But in the end, this has nothing to do with the topic, which is "How do sunsets work?"
I posted a few photos as evidence that the sun's angular size does not change from solar noon to sunset, apart from some slight reduction in height.
That does not fit with any flat earth explanation of sunsets.
The sharpness of the sun's image does not seem to fit with any explanations in "Magnification of the Sun at Sunset".
Yes, Tom's claim seems to be that the sun stays the same size because it is in fact a projection on something in the atmoplane. The problem, as I pointed out in my earlier post, is this turns a LOT of the FE hypothesis on it's head. It's no longer possible to say how high the sun is, the standard 30ish mile diameter is now wrong, it now needs to be a more focused light source in order for the entire sky to not be lit up, and it does nothing to help explain how a sunset happens or why it doesn't change size during the day (under this paradigm it should actually grow LARGER throughout the day). But he remains hung up on apparently not being able to grasp that the corona (which isn't generally seen) being hotter than the surface of the sun, has no bearing on why at least some images have parts of the sun seemingly brighter than other parts.
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: LoveScience on December 05, 2018, 03:25:18 PM
The sign of a good theory is consistency and simplicity.  You don't have to force or stretch any of the pieces to get them to fit.  Until recently I had basically taken it as a given that everyone knew the shape of the Earth etc. But then a friend mentioned about the FES and I thought... surely not.. this is the 21st century.

Knowing a reasonable amount about the Sun it opened my eyes wide when I considered that there are really people out there who think the Sun is only 30 miles wide and 3000 miles away.  If that were true it would tear us and the rest of the solar system apart before we knew what was happening!
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: Spingo on December 05, 2018, 04:26:05 PM
Where did LoveScience solve one of the "most significant unsolved problems in astrophysics"? Please quote it for us.

I  think it might give a more even playing field if you laid out your flat earth alternative explanations on the following:
The flat earth’s Suns primary source.
The exact processes involved in the creation of the energy.

While currently explanations as to the difference in temperatures in different portions of the sun are still being researched the basic workings of the sun, nuclear fusion, is well understood. No where in the flat earth wiki does it offer any explanation as how the flat earth sun is powered, perhaps you could explain by answering the two questions.
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: Spingo on December 05, 2018, 05:04:12 PM
I am not talking about that glow on the outside of the sun in the 12 o'clock image. The sun is inconsistently bright.

One thing puzzles me that perhaps you could explain. Having looked up a few references on the sun I see that there are numerous institutions around the world all devoted to study of the sun, and as you so rightly pointed out earlier, there are still many unknowns and unanswered questions. Though having an unanswered question or two does not put what you do know into doubt. The problem is of all the institutions I came across none of them, as far as I could tell, supported your view on the sun in regard to either distance or size or any think else your wiki states for that matter. From that I concluded their views would be very different from your own. The question is what institutions are doing the research that backs up your own position?
The other thing troubling me is the scientist you earlier quoted Dr. David H. Brooks of George Mason University, is a thoracic surgeon! specialising in lung transplants! Which when I last looked had little to do with the sun! Though to be fair there may be two of them.

Regardless, while the whole temperature thing is still unexplained, why do you think that none of the scientists involved in that paper you linked to would agree with you or your flat earth wiki on anything to do with the sun?
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: rabinoz on December 06, 2018, 03:22:38 AM
I am not talking about that glow on the outside of the sun in the 12 o'clock image. The sun is inconsistently bright.
What do you mean by "The sun is inconsistently bright"?
The corona might be extremely hot but it is so tenuous that it radiates little visible light.
But, even if it cannot yet be explained, why is it any evidence against the Heliocentric Solar System?
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: Pinky on December 07, 2018, 03:15:02 PM
I don't think my questions have been answered so far, or maybe I simply overlooked it. It feels like this discussion has gone astray.

1. Does the visible Sun-disc shrink or does it not shrink? Which Wiki-page in the FE-Wiki is correct and which one is false?
2. Within the FE-model, what causes the visible Sun-disc to suddenly (over the course of a few minutes) appear and disappear at sunrise/sunset?
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: Curious Squirrel on December 07, 2018, 03:22:37 PM
I don't think my questions have been answered so far, or maybe I simply overlooked it. It feels like this discussion has gone astray.

1. Does the visible Sun-disc shrink or does it not shrink? Which Wiki-page in the FE-Wiki is correct and which one is false?
2. Within the FE-model, what causes the visible Sun-disc to suddenly (over the course of a few minutes) appear and disappear at sunrise/sunset?
1. The sun only 'shrinks' at sunset. Both pages are correct. The size doesn't change during the day, then at sunset the sun appears to vanish/shrink.
2. FEH perspective.
Title: Re: How do sunsets work?
Post by: Pinky on December 07, 2018, 05:05:28 PM
I don't think my questions have been answered so far, or maybe I simply overlooked it. It feels like this discussion has gone astray.

1. Does the visible Sun-disc shrink or does it not shrink? Which Wiki-page in the FE-Wiki is correct and which one is false?
2. Within the FE-model, what causes the visible Sun-disc to suddenly (over the course of a few minutes) appear and disappear at sunrise/sunset?
1. The sun only 'shrinks' at sunset. Both pages are correct. The size doesn't change during the day, then at sunset the sun appears to vanish/shrink.
2. FEH perspective.

According to https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Setting_of_the_Sun it shrinks continuously throughout the day.
Except we don't see it shrinking because https://wiki.tfes.org/Magnification_of_the_Sun_at_Sunset .
Except when it suddenly goes from non-shrinking to shrinking.

When its real angular size in the sky shrinks, but it stays the same observed size throughout the day, shouldn't the Sun get darker? You know, because less and less radiation is coming from the same observed area?

Also, what is FEH?