Yaakov ben Avraham

Columbus & a Round (or Flat) Earth.
« on: January 14, 2014, 08:44:15 PM »
Now, although we have discussed the morals of celebrating Columbus Day, & by extension, the morals of the man himself on the other forum, I am curious about 1 point. Most of us REers (among whom I count myself) know that Columbus didn't prove us right, nor did he care. Most educated Europeans had known the Earth was round since Ancient Greece. But I have heard that some FEers actually claim that Columbus proved the Earth was Flat. On what basis is this claim made? My dissertation is on Columbus, & this data may be helpful. Any thoughts?

Thork

Re: Columbus & a Round (or Flat) Earth.
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2014, 08:51:04 PM »
But I have heard that some FEers actually claim that Columbus proved the Earth was Flat.
Which FErs?

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Offline Tau

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Re: Columbus & a Round (or Flat) Earth.
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2014, 09:21:11 PM »
Now, although we have discussed the morals of celebrating Columbus Day, & by extension, the morals of the man himself on the other forum, I am curious about 1 point. Most of us REers (among whom I count myself) know that Columbus didn't prove us right, nor did he care. Most educated Europeans had known the Earth was round since Ancient Greece. But I have heard that some FEers actually claim that Columbus proved the Earth was Flat. On what basis is this claim made? My dissertation is on Columbus, & this data may be helpful. Any thoughts?

I've been here for a long time, and I've never seen anyone claim this. Sorry I can't be of greater help.
That's how far the horizon is, not how far you can see.

Read the FAQ: http://wiki.tfes.org/index.php?title=FAQ

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Offline markjo

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Re: Columbus & a Round (or Flat) Earth.
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2014, 09:24:34 PM »
I want to think that it was New Earth, or one of the other fringe FE'ers.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Columbus & a Round (or Flat) Earth.
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2014, 11:07:16 PM »
Charles Johnson, who took over the FES after Sam Shenton died, & himself died in March of 2001, taught that Columbus believed, & proved the world to be flat. Source, 'Flat Earth: The History of an Infamous Idea' by Christine Garwood, Thomas Dunne Books, St. Martin's Press, New York, 2007, NOOK edition, May 2011.

Thork

Re: Columbus & a Round (or Flat) Earth.
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2014, 11:33:10 PM »
Have you got a reference for that? I want to see if that is what Johnson said or if its Garwood putting words in FErs mouths again. She is an abhorrent witch.

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Offline Tintagel

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Re: Columbus & a Round (or Flat) Earth.
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2014, 12:15:12 AM »
Columbus' voyage is only proof of a continuous earth (at least insofar as transatlantic travel is possible), and doesn't imply one shape or the other.  Ships will sail on a flat earth as well as a round one.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Columbus & a Round (or Flat) Earth.
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2014, 12:21:34 AM »
Have you got a reference for that?

Source, 'Flat Earth: The History of an Infamous Idea' by Christine Garwood, Thomas Dunne Books, St. Martin's Press, New York, 2007, NOOK edition, May 2011.
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

Thork

Re: Columbus & a Round (or Flat) Earth.
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2014, 12:23:13 AM »
Have you got a reference for that?

Source, 'Flat Earth: The History of an Infamous Idea' by Christine Garwood, Thomas Dunne Books, St. Martin's Press, New York, 2007, NOOK edition, May 2011.
Its a long book. Contribute or leave the thread.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Columbus & a Round (or Flat) Earth.
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2014, 12:29:12 AM »
There is 1 footnote that may or may not be of help. (EDIT) Note 59. UCR, EC, Flat Earth News, 52 (1984), p. 2. I'm not certain if this note refers to 2 points in her narrative or just 1. & on my dumbphone, I can't access the FE Resources. I can't give you a pg # in Garwood's book, because, although e-reader pagination exists, it depends on the font size one uses. However, the note is located in Ch. 9, The Californian Connection, about 3/4 of the way through the chapter.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2014, 12:43:08 AM by Yaakov ben Avraham »

Re: Columbus & a Round (or Flat) Earth.
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2014, 12:36:13 AM »
And you couldn't just type the damn footnote instead of typing directions to it?
I don't even care to find out what you're doing wrong, but I'm sure you're doing something wrong.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Columbus & a Round (or Flat) Earth.
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2014, 12:39:26 AM »
Tintagel, you are of course quite correct. However, my question isn't WHETHER Columbus' trip IS such a proof. We know that its not, & that he, like most people of his time, believed in RE, & could have cared less. My question is, what did Johnson actually BELIEVE that Columbus believed? Rama, thank you, I think that's 1 of the few times you've backed me! But I understood Thork's request for clarification. Thork, that's all the data I have. I'm sorry. Alchemist, I did, although not correctly, which I have made right. I provided direction so Thork could find it himself if he has the book.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2014, 12:51:00 AM by Yaakov ben Avraham »

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Offline Tintagel

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Re: Columbus & a Round (or Flat) Earth.
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2014, 03:23:33 AM »
Tintagel, you are of course quite correct. However, my question isn't WHETHER Columbus' trip IS such a proof. We know that its not, & that he, like most people of his time, believed in RE, & could have cared less. My question is, what did Johnson actually BELIEVE that Columbus believed? Rama, thank you, I think that's 1 of the few times you've backed me! But I understood Thork's request for clarification. Thork, that's all the data I have. I'm sorry. Alchemist, I did, although not correctly, which I have made right. I provided direction so Thork could find it himself if he has the book.
Ah.  That'd be impossible to say.  I'm not certain what Columbus believed, regardless of what historians ascribe to him.  That's an interesting tidbit of FES history. 

I've done some research on Charles Johnson and while I don't agree with the theological crux of his belief, he was nonetheless a fascinating fellow, and very funny in fact.  His story ends rather heartbreakingly with the fire that destroyed the existing IFES and his wife Marjory's subsequent death.  The FES was his second love, and he devoted his remaining days to attempting to rebuild it. 

I looked, but I couldn't find a reference to him saying that Columbus believed the earth was flat.  Doesn't mean it doesn't exist, my search was rather cursory.

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Offline markjo

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Re: Columbus & a Round (or Flat) Earth.
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2014, 03:30:58 AM »
Ah.  That'd be impossible to say.  I'm not certain what Columbus believed, regardless of what historians ascribe to him. 
From what I've heard, Columbus knew that the earth was round, but cut some 3000 miles off the then accepted circumference in order to sell his voyage west to India to the queen.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Columbus & a Round (or Flat) Earth.
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2014, 03:31:57 AM »
Yes, Tintagel, Johnson's story as portrayed in Garwood does seem a bit melancholy.

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Offline Tintagel

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Re: Columbus & a Round (or Flat) Earth.
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2014, 12:41:55 PM »
Yes, Tintagel, Johnson's story as portrayed in Garwood does seem a bit melancholy.

I haven't read the Garwood book, actually, but I may have to get it.  There is quite a bit written about him, and he did many interviews and wasn't shy about speaking in public.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Columbus & a Round (or Flat) Earth.
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2014, 12:34:46 AM »
Now, MARKJO, that's a different angle. I always learned that Columbus simply believed the world smaller than it was, not that he deliberately falsified data.

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Offline markjo

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Re: Columbus & a Round (or Flat) Earth.
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2014, 02:40:34 AM »
Since there were no circumnavigations up to that time, there were no confirmations of the size of the earth, so he may have thought that a shorter distance would be an easier sell since no one could really prove him wrong.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Columbus & a Round (or Flat) Earth.
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2014, 07:17:51 PM »
Markjo, now that I'm done in the Lower Fora, do you have sources for this idea that Columbus falsified data, rather than was simply wrong?

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Offline markjo

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Re: Columbus & a Round (or Flat) Earth.
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2014, 01:12:29 AM »
It may not have been deliberate deception on Columbus's part.  Rather, there was no universally accepted circumference of the earth at the time, so he picked a smaller estimate.
http://history.stackexchange.com/questions/4337/how-did-columbus-calculate-the-size-of-the-earth
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.