BBC slags off TFES again
« on: November 07, 2018, 09:00:01 AM »
Some BBC propaganda in a section they call 'ideas'. Their ideas.

https://www.bbc.com/ideas/videos/whats-behind-denialism/p06qtycg

I'd like you to notice the badge the man is wearing in the cartoon in that video. Look familiar?

This isn't just a hit on the flat earth movement. It's a direct assault on this site. And they don't mind stealing our intellectual property to do it.

Hopefully the license fee will be revoked and the god-awful BBC will collapse.  >:(

Maybe Pete Svarrior would like to Tweet the BBC and ask them why they used our logo in their hit piece on and lumped us in with not only climate change deniers but also holocaust deniers!
« Last Edit: November 07, 2018, 09:14:20 AM by Baby Thork »
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Online MattyWS

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Re: BBC slags off TFES again
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2018, 01:17:16 PM »
Deniers are deniers, regardless of what it is they deny. To say you're being lumped in with people who deny different things as inaccurate is like saying you're not the same species are black or asian people because you're white, you're still human thus still 'lumped in' with other races in that regard. Not that I'm claiming racism or anything, just a simile.

And IMO flat earthers are definitely deniers. So far from what I've seen on these forums is flat out denying and ignoring evidence and proof they can't refute, and yet unable to explain fully why they think the world is flat as a matter of fact.

I'll grant you one thing though, the use of the logo on his badge was likely not allowed assuming this site has any claim over the licencing of the logo (I wouldn't know for sure myself).

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Offline Boots

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Re: BBC slags off TFES again
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2018, 01:41:49 PM »
Dude! It's free publicity for the site!

What are you complaining about? The fact that they categorized us as deniers? That's awful 'cause before they did that everyone thought FET was totally legit.
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Re: BBC slags off TFES again
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2018, 03:11:37 PM »
It is the link between us and holocaust deniers that I am not in love with. To say we are the same type of people and brandish the site's logo on 'denier man' who also denies climate change and the holocaust is a smear tactic. Its like claiming that someone who is frightened of spiders must also be a homophobe.

It is disgusting behaviour from a national broadcaster that uses public funding to push these false messages.
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Re: BBC slags off TFES again
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2018, 03:54:39 PM »
Deniers are deniers, regardless of what it is they deny. To say you're being lumped in with people who deny different things as inaccurate is like saying you're not the same species are black or asian people because you're white, you're still human thus still 'lumped in' with other races in that regard. Not that I'm claiming racism or anything, just a simile.

And IMO flat earthers are definitely deniers. So far from what I've seen on these forums is flat out denying and ignoring evidence and proof they can't refute, and yet unable to explain fully why they think the world is flat as a matter of fact.

I'll grant you one thing though, the use of the logo on his badge was likely not allowed assuming this site has any claim over the licencing of the logo (I wouldn't know for sure myself).

Alright, well I guess the warnings didn't have an impact. Have a few days off to review the rules.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: BBC slags off TFES again
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2018, 07:18:23 PM »
Maybe Pete Svarrior would like to Tweet the BBC and ask them why they used our logo in their hit piece on and lumped us in with not only climate change deniers but also holocaust deniers!
I don't think Twitter is the right way to handle this. There are two serious issues here, one of copyright infringement (no appropriate credit was given, thus breaching our Creative Commons licence), and the fairly obvious defamation.

I'll approach the BBC cordially in first instance and ask them to alter the video and publish an apology. We'll see where things go from there.
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Re: BBC slags off TFES again
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2018, 08:04:37 PM »
Your call. Twitter brings us publicity. The other route ... we aren't realistically going to sue them, we haven't enough T-shirt money. I feel Twitter would get us the publicity anyway and the apology. Left to the BBC and it'll be the tiniest retraction in the most obscure page on their site.

Pragmatically, we may as well try to get some kind of win out of it.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2018, 08:06:34 PM by Baby Thork »
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Offline markjo

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Re: BBC slags off TFES again
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2018, 10:51:48 PM »
Doesn't England allow the fair use exception for journalistic/editorial purposes?
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: BBC slags off TFES again
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2018, 06:09:22 PM »
Doesn't England allow the fair use exception for journalistic/editorial purposes?
Slapping someone's logo on a character for no good reason is not fair use in America, nor is it fair dealing in the UK.

An example of fair use would be if they briefly showed the logo while the Flat Earth Society was introduced to the video (which it isn't at all). Alternatively, if the work was transformative, it could be argued as fair use. It's neither of these things.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 06:14:04 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: BBC slags off TFES again
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2018, 07:02:19 PM »
I'm not sure why this was moved to community? It is most definitely a media issue and a discussion about the use of our intellectual property by the media.

But ho hum.  ???
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: BBC slags off TFES again
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2018, 07:13:53 PM »
FEM is for posting videos pertaining to FET with little to no commentary or discussion. It is a repository of potentially interesting videos.

This thread is commentary on a video that, mostly, doesn't discuss FET; and a discussion about the use of our intellectual property by the media.
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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Re: BBC slags off TFES again
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2018, 09:24:04 PM »
I think the use of the TFES icon is a pretty blatant infringement. It symbolizes this specific forum when there are way freakier FE communities out there. However, I'm certain they would argue 'fair use' even though it's really not. 'Fair Use' would be a valid defense if it was a story specifically about this forum. Unfortunately, in the legal kumite, right and wrong matter less than who spends the most on lawyers.

The defamation angle is very interesting and could have merit. Holocaust deniers are denying specific acts of hate and violence which earns them a special status. In some countries, it's even a crime to deny the holocaust.

Donald Trump denies climate change. How would he react to being compared to a holocaust denier when his daughter converted to Judaism. Perhaps he should join TFES in a class action lawsuit.

This video was mindless pop culture science with no citations or data, just talking heads spouting generalized opinions. I have a low tolerance for bad science RE or FE.


But the one thing that really did  piss me off about this video is that I had to download the BBC app to my phone to watch this punk-ass piece of non-info fluff. They need to be sent to the lower forums of life.


Pete is right. Twitter is not the place to start. It would get attention and publicity but it would bring more of those one post trolls that hit, run and end up in CN. Now, if Pete reaches out to BBC and they send some disrespectful email or say something stupid, posting their response on twitter might get better attention.
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Offline markjo

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Re: BBC slags off TFES again
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2018, 09:46:16 PM »
Doesn't England allow the fair use exception for journalistic/editorial purposes?
Slapping someone's logo on a character for no good reason is not fair use in America, nor is it fair dealing in the UK.

An example of fair use would be if they briefly showed the logo while the Flat Earth Society was introduced to the video (which it isn't at all). Alternatively, if the work was transformative, it could be argued as fair use. It's neither of these things.
I haven't actually seen the video in question, but it sounds like it might be covered by the parody clause in fair dealing.
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Re: BBC slags off TFES again
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2018, 10:24:52 PM »
I haven't actually seen the video in question ...
And yet you have made several comments about it.   ::)

The BBC made a cartoon explaining who deniers are and what a denier thinks. Being the BBC, when you make a bad person, they have to be a straight white man. So this man is introduced at the beginning where they say in the same sentence people deny things like climate change, the holocaust or the shape of the earth. Because all these things are really similar right?  ::)
Denier man then gets used throughout the video and is basically depicted as an idiot as he goes about denying the climate is changing with the implication he is a holocaust denier still hanging in the air ... and he proudly wears an enormous TFES badge on his lapel. If you didn't know our logo you wouldn't even know what it was for. But there he is wearing it for no reason other than to link us as denier man, the holocaust guy.

But the one thing that really did  piss me off about this video is that I had to download the BBC app to my phone to watch this punk-ass piece of non-info fluff. They need to be sent to the lower forums of life.
This is because the BBC still uses Flash. I know, I know, 2018. Despite extorting £150.50 from every single household in Britain that has the audacity to want to watch TV, they aren't able to update their site.

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Offline markjo

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Re: BBC slags off TFES again
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2018, 10:43:25 PM »
I haven't actually seen the video in question ...
And yet you have made several comments about it.   ::)
No.  I asked a question about fair use and then suggested that it might be covered by the parody section of fair dealing, which you would have known if you had bothered reading the rest of my post.

The BBC made a cartoon explaining who deniers are and what a denier thinks. Being the BBC, when you make a bad person, they have to be a straight white man. So this man is introduced at the beginning where they say in the same sentence people deny things like climate change, the holocaust or the shape of the earth. Because all these things are really similar right?  ::)
Denier man then gets used throughout the video and is basically depicted as an idiot as he goes about denying the climate is changing with the implication he is a holocaust denier still hanging in the air ... and he proudly wears an enormous TFES badge on his lapel. If you didn't know our logo you wouldn't even know what it was for. But there he is wearing it for no reason other than to link us as denier man, the holocaust guy.
Yup, sounds like parody to me.
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Re: BBC slags off TFES again
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2018, 10:45:03 PM »
Yup, sounds like parody to me.
Because you haven't watched the video!  >o<

It is not a parody. It is supposed to be educational.
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Re: BBC slags off TFES again
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2018, 10:47:37 PM »
Deniers are deniers, regardless of what it is they deny. To say you're being lumped in with people who deny different things as inaccurate is like saying you're not the same species are black or asian people because you're white, you're still human thus still 'lumped in' with other races in that regard. Not that I'm claiming racism or anything, just a simile.

I deny that.


I also prefer the term revisionist.

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Offline markjo

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Re: BBC slags off TFES again
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2018, 10:50:21 PM »
Yup, sounds like parody to me.
Because you haven't watched the video!  >o<

It is not a parody. It is supposed to be educational.
Are you saying that the two are mutually exclusive?
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Re: BBC slags off TFES again
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2018, 10:58:09 PM »
Yup, sounds like parody to me.
Because you haven't watched the video!  >o<

It is not a parody. It is supposed to be educational.
Are you saying that the two are mutually exclusive?

I don't see how this fits any of the common definitions of parody. It can probably be argued, but I am with Thork on this one.
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Offline markjo

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Re: BBC slags off TFES again
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2018, 11:15:26 PM »
Yup, sounds like parody to me.
Because you haven't watched the video!  >o<

It is not a parody. It is supposed to be educational.
Are you saying that the two are mutually exclusive?

I don't see how this fits any of the common definitions of parody. It can probably be argued, but I am with Thork on this one.

According to Pete's source:
As of 1 October 2014, Section 30A provides for fair dealing as a defence in cases where the infringement was for the purpose of caricature, parody or pastiche.[26] The Intellectual Property Office suggests that a "parody" is something that imitates a work for humorous or satirical effect, a "pastiche" is a composition that is made up of selections from various sources or one that imitates the style of another artist or period, and that a "caricature" is something that portrays its subject in a simplified or exaggerated way, whether insulting or complimentary and whether for a political purpose or solely for entertainment.
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