The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Community => Topic started by: Baby Thork on November 07, 2018, 09:00:01 AM

Title: BBC slags off TFES again
Post by: Baby Thork on November 07, 2018, 09:00:01 AM
Some BBC propaganda in a section they call 'ideas'. Their ideas.

https://www.bbc.com/ideas/videos/whats-behind-denialism/p06qtycg

I'd like you to notice the badge the man is wearing in the cartoon in that video. Look familiar?

This isn't just a hit on the flat earth movement. It's a direct assault on this site. And they don't mind stealing our intellectual property to do it.

Hopefully the license fee will be revoked and the god-awful BBC will collapse.  >:(

Maybe Pete Svarrior would like to Tweet the BBC and ask them why they used our logo in their hit piece on and lumped us in with not only climate change deniers but also holocaust deniers!
Title: Re: BBC slags off TFES again
Post by: MattyWS on November 07, 2018, 01:17:16 PM
Deniers are deniers, regardless of what it is they deny. To say you're being lumped in with people who deny different things as inaccurate is like saying you're not the same species are black or asian people because you're white, you're still human thus still 'lumped in' with other races in that regard. Not that I'm claiming racism or anything, just a simile.

And IMO flat earthers are definitely deniers. So far from what I've seen on these forums is flat out denying and ignoring evidence and proof they can't refute, and yet unable to explain fully why they think the world is flat as a matter of fact.

I'll grant you one thing though, the use of the logo on his badge was likely not allowed assuming this site has any claim over the licencing of the logo (I wouldn't know for sure myself).
Title: Re: BBC slags off TFES again
Post by: Boots on November 07, 2018, 01:41:49 PM
Dude! It's free publicity for the site!

What are you complaining about? The fact that they categorized us as deniers? That's awful 'cause before they did that everyone thought FET was totally legit.
Title: Re: BBC slags off TFES again
Post by: Baby Thork on November 07, 2018, 03:11:37 PM
It is the link between us and holocaust deniers that I am not in love with. To say we are the same type of people and brandish the site's logo on 'denier man' who also denies climate change and the holocaust is a smear tactic. Its like claiming that someone who is frightened of spiders must also be a homophobe.

It is disgusting behaviour from a national broadcaster that uses public funding to push these false messages.
Title: Re: BBC slags off TFES again
Post by: junker on November 07, 2018, 03:54:39 PM
Deniers are deniers, regardless of what it is they deny. To say you're being lumped in with people who deny different things as inaccurate is like saying you're not the same species are black or asian people because you're white, you're still human thus still 'lumped in' with other races in that regard. Not that I'm claiming racism or anything, just a simile.

And IMO flat earthers are definitely deniers. So far from what I've seen on these forums is flat out denying and ignoring evidence and proof they can't refute, and yet unable to explain fully why they think the world is flat as a matter of fact.

I'll grant you one thing though, the use of the logo on his badge was likely not allowed assuming this site has any claim over the licencing of the logo (I wouldn't know for sure myself).

Alright, well I guess the warnings didn't have an impact. Have a few days off to review the rules.
Title: Re: BBC slags off TFES again
Post by: Pete Svarrior on November 07, 2018, 07:18:23 PM
Maybe Pete Svarrior would like to Tweet the BBC and ask them why they used our logo in their hit piece on and lumped us in with not only climate change deniers but also holocaust deniers!
I don't think Twitter is the right way to handle this. There are two serious issues here, one of copyright infringement (no appropriate credit was given, thus breaching our Creative Commons licence), and the fairly obvious defamation.

I'll approach the BBC cordially in first instance and ask them to alter the video and publish an apology. We'll see where things go from there.
Title: Re: BBC slags off TFES again
Post by: Baby Thork on November 07, 2018, 08:04:37 PM
Your call. Twitter brings us publicity. The other route ... we aren't realistically going to sue them, we haven't enough T-shirt money. I feel Twitter would get us the publicity anyway and the apology. Left to the BBC and it'll be the tiniest retraction in the most obscure page on their site.

Pragmatically, we may as well try to get some kind of win out of it.
Title: Re: BBC slags off TFES again
Post by: markjo on November 07, 2018, 10:51:48 PM
Doesn't England allow the fair use exception for journalistic/editorial purposes?
Title: Re: BBC slags off TFES again
Post by: Pete Svarrior on November 08, 2018, 06:09:22 PM
Doesn't England allow the fair use exception for journalistic/editorial purposes?
Slapping someone's logo on a character for no good reason is not fair use in America, nor is it fair dealing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_dealing_in_United_Kingdom_law) in the UK.

An example of fair use would be if they briefly showed the logo while the Flat Earth Society was introduced to the video (which it isn't at all). Alternatively, if the work was transformative, it could be argued as fair use. It's neither of these things.
Title: Re: BBC slags off TFES again
Post by: Baby Thork on November 08, 2018, 07:02:19 PM
I'm not sure why this was moved to community? It is most definitely a media issue and a discussion about the use of our intellectual property by the media.

But ho hum.  ???
Title: Re: BBC slags off TFES again
Post by: Pete Svarrior on November 08, 2018, 07:13:53 PM
FEM is for posting videos pertaining to FET with little to no commentary or discussion. It is a repository of potentially interesting videos.

This thread is commentary on a video that, mostly, doesn't discuss FET; and a discussion about the use of our intellectual property by the media.
Title: Re: BBC slags off TFES again
Post by: Dr Van Nostrand on November 08, 2018, 09:24:04 PM
I think the use of the TFES icon is a pretty blatant infringement. It symbolizes this specific forum when there are way freakier FE communities out there. However, I'm certain they would argue 'fair use' even though it's really not. 'Fair Use' would be a valid defense if it was a story specifically about this forum. Unfortunately, in the legal kumite, right and wrong matter less than who spends the most on lawyers.

The defamation angle is very interesting and could have merit. Holocaust deniers are denying specific acts of hate and violence which earns them a special status. In some countries, it's even a crime to deny the holocaust.

Donald Trump denies climate change. How would he react to being compared to a holocaust denier when his daughter converted to Judaism. Perhaps he should join TFES in a class action lawsuit.

This video was mindless pop culture science with no citations or data, just talking heads spouting generalized opinions. I have a low tolerance for bad science RE or FE.


But the one thing that really did  piss me off about this video is that I had to download the BBC app to my phone to watch this punk-ass piece of non-info fluff. They need to be sent to the lower forums of life.


Pete is right. Twitter is not the place to start. It would get attention and publicity but it would bring more of those one post trolls that hit, run and end up in CN. Now, if Pete reaches out to BBC and they send some disrespectful email or say something stupid, posting their response on twitter might get better attention.
Title: Re: BBC slags off TFES again
Post by: markjo on November 08, 2018, 09:46:16 PM
Doesn't England allow the fair use exception for journalistic/editorial purposes?
Slapping someone's logo on a character for no good reason is not fair use in America, nor is it fair dealing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_dealing_in_United_Kingdom_law) in the UK.

An example of fair use would be if they briefly showed the logo while the Flat Earth Society was introduced to the video (which it isn't at all). Alternatively, if the work was transformative, it could be argued as fair use. It's neither of these things.
I haven't actually seen the video in question, but it sounds like it might be covered by the parody clause in fair dealing.
Title: Re: BBC slags off TFES again
Post by: Baby Thork on November 08, 2018, 10:24:52 PM
I haven't actually seen the video in question ...
And yet you have made several comments about it.   ::)

The BBC made a cartoon explaining who deniers are and what a denier thinks. Being the BBC, when you make a bad person, they have to be a straight white man. So this man is introduced at the beginning where they say in the same sentence people deny things like climate change, the holocaust or the shape of the earth. Because all these things are really similar right?  ::)
Denier man then gets used throughout the video and is basically depicted as an idiot as he goes about denying the climate is changing with the implication he is a holocaust denier still hanging in the air ... and he proudly wears an enormous TFES badge on his lapel. If you didn't know our logo you wouldn't even know what it was for. But there he is wearing it for no reason other than to link us as denier man, the holocaust guy.

But the one thing that really did  piss me off about this video is that I had to download the BBC app to my phone to watch this punk-ass piece of non-info fluff. They need to be sent to the lower forums of life.
This is because the BBC still uses Flash. I know, I know, 2018. Despite extorting £150.50 from every single household in Britain that has the audacity to want to watch TV, they aren't able to update their site.

Title: Re: BBC slags off TFES again
Post by: markjo on November 08, 2018, 10:43:25 PM
I haven't actually seen the video in question ...
And yet you have made several comments about it.   ::)
No.  I asked a question about fair use and then suggested that it might be covered by the parody section of fair dealing, which you would have known if you had bothered reading the rest of my post.

The BBC made a cartoon explaining who deniers are and what a denier thinks. Being the BBC, when you make a bad person, they have to be a straight white man. So this man is introduced at the beginning where they say in the same sentence people deny things like climate change, the holocaust or the shape of the earth. Because all these things are really similar right?  ::)
Denier man then gets used throughout the video and is basically depicted as an idiot as he goes about denying the climate is changing with the implication he is a holocaust denier still hanging in the air ... and he proudly wears an enormous TFES badge on his lapel. If you didn't know our logo you wouldn't even know what it was for. But there he is wearing it for no reason other than to link us as denier man, the holocaust guy.
Yup, sounds like parody to me.
Title: Re: BBC slags off TFES again
Post by: Baby Thork on November 08, 2018, 10:45:03 PM
Yup, sounds like parody to me.
Because you haven't watched the video!  >o<

It is not a parody. It is supposed to be educational.
Title: Re: BBC slags off TFES again
Post by: disputeone on November 08, 2018, 10:47:37 PM
Deniers are deniers, regardless of what it is they deny. To say you're being lumped in with people who deny different things as inaccurate is like saying you're not the same species are black or asian people because you're white, you're still human thus still 'lumped in' with other races in that regard. Not that I'm claiming racism or anything, just a simile.

I deny that.


I also prefer the term revisionist.
Title: Re: BBC slags off TFES again
Post by: markjo on November 08, 2018, 10:50:21 PM
Yup, sounds like parody to me.
Because you haven't watched the video!  >o<

It is not a parody. It is supposed to be educational.
Are you saying that the two are mutually exclusive?
Title: Re: BBC slags off TFES again
Post by: junker on November 08, 2018, 10:58:09 PM
Yup, sounds like parody to me.
Because you haven't watched the video!  >o<

It is not a parody. It is supposed to be educational.
Are you saying that the two are mutually exclusive?

I don't see how this fits any of the common definitions of parody. It can probably be argued, but I am with Thork on this one.
Title: Re: BBC slags off TFES again
Post by: markjo on November 08, 2018, 11:15:26 PM
Yup, sounds like parody to me.
Because you haven't watched the video!  >o<

It is not a parody. It is supposed to be educational.
Are you saying that the two are mutually exclusive?

I don't see how this fits any of the common definitions of parody. It can probably be argued, but I am with Thork on this one.

According to Pete's source:
Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_dealing_in_United_Kingdom_law#Parody,_caricature_and_pastiche
As of 1 October 2014, Section 30A provides for fair dealing as a defence in cases where the infringement was for the purpose of caricature, parody or pastiche.[26] The Intellectual Property Office suggests that a "parody" is something that imitates a work for humorous or satirical effect, a "pastiche" is a composition that is made up of selections from various sources or one that imitates the style of another artist or period, and that a "caricature" is something that portrays its subject in a simplified or exaggerated way, whether insulting or complimentary and whether for a political purpose or solely for entertainment.
Title: Re: BBC slags off TFES again
Post by: junker on November 08, 2018, 11:22:02 PM

According to Pete's source:
Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_dealing_in_United_Kingdom_law#Parody,_caricature_and_pastiche
As of 1 October 2014, Section 30A provides for fair dealing as a defence in cases where the infringement was for the purpose of caricature, parody or pastiche.[26] The Intellectual Property Office suggests that a "parody" is something that imitates a work for humorous or satirical effect, a "pastiche" is a composition that is made up of selections from various sources or one that imitates the style of another artist or period, and that a "caricature" is something that portrays its subject in a simplified or exaggerated way, whether insulting or complimentary and whether for a political purpose or solely for entertainment.

What work is being imitated in the video? It is animated, but appears to take itself seriously. I suppose it could be considered a humorous visual aid, but the narration is anything but that humorous or satirical.
Title: Re: BBC slags off TFES again
Post by: markjo on November 09, 2018, 12:02:28 AM
Okay, so I broke down and watched the video.  It seems to me that Mr. Denier fits the provided description of a caricature of a stereotypical denier.

"... a "caricature" is something that portrays its subject in a simplified or exaggerated way, whether insulting or complimentary..."
Title: Re: BBC slags off TFES again
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on November 09, 2018, 08:43:19 AM
this man is introduced at the beginning where they say in the same sentence people deny things like climate change, the holocaust or the shape of the earth. Because all these things are really similar right?  ::)
Well, there is an obvious similarity in that in all 3 cases a metric shit-ton of evidence is being denied.

Holocaust deniers are ignoring the fact that Auschwitz-Birkenau is demonstrably there, has all the evidence of mass slaughter and there are a load of witnesses and first hand testimony to the events

Climate change deniers are ignoring the more-or-less scientific consensus on this issue which is based on a load of data and that the climate is demonstrably changing - I'm in my 40s and the difference from my childhood is notiable.

Flat earthers are denying pretty much the whole of science and ignoring the global space programmes and the hundreds of people who have been to space and so can give first hand testimony about the shape of the earth.


It does require a certain mindset and it's interesting that you deny any link when you yourself fit into 2 of the above categories.
Title: Re: BBC slags off TFES again
Post by: Pete Svarrior on November 09, 2018, 08:47:11 AM
markjo: if you want to discuss your lack of understanding of the definitions of fair dealing or caricature, please do so in the appropriate forum. I'm going to be nice and not immediately ban you, but you need to drop your schtick in the upper fora pronto. Warned.

Dr Van Nostrand: That's pretty much the approach I'm taking. I've submitted a complaint following their procedure and am currently awaiting their stage 1 response. We'll see how that goes.

AATW: TFES at large is fairly well known for its acceptance of climate change (that whole Obama thing solicited a fair few statements to that effect which were widely covered by the media). This isn't a case of stating an implicit link which may or may not be true, it's a case of stating something that's known to be untrue (and which the BBC itself previously covered). That flies in the face of the Beeb's Royal Charter.
Title: Re: BBC slags off TFES again
Post by: Baby Thork on November 09, 2018, 09:44:36 AM
It does require a certain mindset and it's interesting that you deny any link when you yourself fit into 2 of the above categories.
And let's make sure for the record that we stipulate the two I question are earth's shape and climate change ... because the other is a whole different thing. And that's the issue I have with the BBC's video.
Title: Re: BBC slags off TFES again
Post by: disputeone on November 09, 2018, 11:14:18 AM
It does require a certain mindset and it's interesting that you deny any link when you yourself fit into 2 of the above categories.
And let's make sure for the record that we stipulate the two I question are earth's shape and climate change ... because the other is a whole different thing. And that's the issue I have with the BBC's video.

Why should we give a crap about any other race? Treat these people as they would treat us if they were powerful. By exterminating them.  >o<

A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Title: Re: BBC slags off TFES again
Post by: Baby Thork on November 09, 2018, 03:20:35 PM
Don't quote mine me.  >:(

I'm allowed to have a change of heart, any time I like. And today I don't want millions of people dead because that won't help me win this online debate. Tomorrow however,  is another day.
Title: Re: BBC slags off TFES again
Post by: Pete Svarrior on November 09, 2018, 04:53:51 PM
The BBC responded to my complaint. It's a boilerplate response, stating that they didn't do anything wrong and that they'll be editing the video to remove our logo from it.

The "We didn't do nothing wrong but we'll comply with your request to fix it" response is telling. I'm going to insist that they publish a clarification/apology, but at this stage we at least have a partial success.
Title: Re: BBC slags off TFES again
Post by: Baby Thork on November 09, 2018, 05:26:44 PM
Please tell me you managed to get a copy of the video before they take it down.

You may wish to draw the BBC's attention to the correct bit of legal infringement.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/48/section/80
Title: Re: BBC slags off TFES again
Post by: Pete Svarrior on November 09, 2018, 05:42:06 PM
I informed them that their argument has no merit, but the copyright issue is not the major one here. After all, they could have used our logo with no issue if they simply credited it to us/Blanko.

I've tried to get a copy of the video, but for some reasons all my attempts at ripping it cut off towards the end. In any case, I have the first 2 minutes and 45 seconds of the video backed up, which covers the point succinctly.

EDIT: Wow, they already censored it! The badge is now tastefully blurred.
Title: Re: BBC slags off TFES again
Post by: titidam on November 09, 2018, 05:49:56 PM
Shame, I liked the other version better.

Can we petition to bring it back?
Title: Re: BBC slags off TFES again
Post by: Pete Svarrior on November 09, 2018, 06:07:35 PM
Shame, I liked the other version better.

Can we petition to bring it back?
You can do whatever you want, but posting without meaningfully contributing to the threads will earn you a warning. Or, rather, it just did.
Title: Re: BBC slags off TFES again
Post by: Baby Thork on November 09, 2018, 06:11:27 PM
I informed them that their argument has no merit, but the copyright issue is not the major one here. After all, they could have used our logo with no issue if they simply credited it to us/Blanko.

I've tried to get a copy of the video, but for some reasons all my attempts at ripping it cut off towards the end. In any case, I have the first 2 minutes and 45 seconds of the video backed up, which covers the point succinctly.

EDIT: Wow, they already censored it! The badge is now tastefully blurred.

Yeah, they know they cant do that ... and so the apology?
Title: Re: BBC slags off TFES again
Post by: Pete Svarrior on November 09, 2018, 06:13:35 PM
We'll see what they have to say on the apology/clarification front. Given how fast they've worked on the edit, it looks like they know they've cocked up. Just a a question of whether they'll admit it.
Title: Re: BBC slags off TFES again
Post by: Baby Thork on November 09, 2018, 06:16:44 PM
Well they have to admit it. They did it and they are in the wrong. Changing the video is the first admission of that.
Title: Re: BBC slags off TFES again
Post by: stack on November 09, 2018, 08:04:30 PM
Well they have to admit it. They did it and they are in the wrong. Changing the video is the first admission of that.

Do they have to admit it or just cease and desist?
Title: Re: BBC slags off TFES again
Post by: Pete Svarrior on November 09, 2018, 08:06:44 PM
It's not clear-cut, since it would depend on the assessment of the severity of the misinformation, but most non-trivial inaccuracies require a clarification.

Of course, their current line is that they haven't misinformed at all and that they're just removing the logo because they're nice like that.
Title: Re: BBC slags off TFES again
Post by: Tom Bishop on November 09, 2018, 11:11:20 PM
I took at look at the video. The narrator believes that we got into Flat Earth Theory because of our inability to deal with something that is "difficult, threatening, or embarrassing"?

That makes absolutely no sense at all.
Title: Re: BBC slags off TFES again
Post by: Baby Thork on November 09, 2018, 11:19:34 PM
They also don't know the difference between scientific denial which usually hinges on suspicions of mal-funding, poor application of the scientific method and government conspiracy, and political denial which is usually down to prejudices, hate and radicalisation.
Title: Re: BBC slags off TFES again
Post by: Rushy on November 10, 2018, 08:48:45 PM
Some BBC employee likely just googled "flat earth society" and chose the first picture that google gives them, which is simply this site's logo. It's doubtful that they intended to single out this website in particular.
Title: Re: BBC slags off TFES again
Post by: stack on November 11, 2018, 12:30:44 AM
Some BBC employee likely just googled "flat earth society" and chose the first picture that google gives them, which is simply this site's logo. It's doubtful that they intended to single out this website in particular.

I would agree. I just tried chrome>incognito. Searched images for "flat earth logo". TFES logo was the first result.
Title: Re: BBC slags off TFES again
Post by: Baby Thork on November 11, 2018, 12:35:41 PM
And if you type 'google logo' you get their logo. I bet the BBC wouldn't slap a google logo on a holocaust denier.
Title: Re: BBC slags off TFES again
Post by: MattyWS on November 11, 2018, 12:47:10 PM
I've tried to get a copy of the video, but for some reasons all my attempts at ripping it cut off towards the end. In any case, I have the first 2 minutes and 45 seconds of the video backed up, which covers the point succinctly.
In future, you can just use a screen recording software like Obs.
Title: Re: BBC slags off TFES again
Post by: Pete Svarrior on November 11, 2018, 04:32:34 PM
In future, you can just use a screen recording software like Obs.
Ew. Sorry, that just won't do. A single technical blip on my part is no excuse to advocate doing things the wrong way.

Hilariously enough, the BBC's video suffered generational loss when they edited out the logo. Perhaps they took your advice.
Title: Re: BBC slags off TFES again
Post by: stack on November 11, 2018, 08:35:54 PM
And if you type 'google logo' you get their logo. I bet the BBC wouldn't slap a google logo on a holocaust denier.

Definitely agree. Everyone fears the google.
Title: Re: BBC slags off TFES again
Post by: Rushy on November 11, 2018, 09:00:21 PM
And if you type 'google logo' you get their logo. I bet the BBC wouldn't slap a google logo on a holocaust denier.

Google has an entire PR team making sure that people don't correlate the word "google" with negative things. However, for something like the Flat Earth Society, it's easy to throw us in the same bin as some holocaust deniers and climate change haters.

And Thork, you have helped contribute to that identity, considering you run around this forum doing your whole nazi larping thing.
Title: Re: BBC slags off TFES again
Post by: Baby Thork on November 11, 2018, 09:42:34 PM
Absolute nonsense. Whoever at the BBC had never even been to this site. And feel free to link me to the thread where I denied the holocaust.