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Offline spoon

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Re: You are selfish.
« Reply #40 on: January 11, 2014, 03:19:27 AM »
The ones who jump on the grenade are the ones who would feel awful about it if they didn't. They don't want to feel awful, so they do it.
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Re: You are selfish.
« Reply #41 on: January 11, 2014, 03:25:36 AM »
Every action you undertake necessarily has some connection to you but you cannot tell me that jumping on a grenade has some intrinsic emotional, mental or physical benefit to a person. They jump on it, then die. No karma for them, no reciprocated altruism. Dead.

You also have to consider how it would compare to the trauma and/or potential guilt of having watched your friends get blown to pieces right in front of you.  I think there are plenty of people who would prefer death to that.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: You are selfish.
« Reply #42 on: January 11, 2014, 04:20:49 AM »
The ones who jump on the grenade are the ones who would feel awful about it if they didn't. They don't want to feel awful, so they do it.

How do you know this?
Every action you undertake necessarily has some connection to you but you cannot tell me that jumping on a grenade has some intrinsic emotional, mental or physical benefit to a person. They jump on it, then die. No karma for them, no reciprocated altruism. Dead.

You also have to consider how it would compare to the trauma and/or potential guilt of having watched your friends get blown to pieces right in front of you.  I think there are plenty of people who would prefer death to that.

I sincerely doubt that it is the fear of survivor guilt motivating the jump. They probably get as far as the shocking image of their comrades dismemberment before jumping. That seems abhorrent so they jump.

Why does it seem that everyone in this discussion forgets the empirical fact that we have empathy?  You can genuinely connect with another's suffering and wish for the other not to have that happen. Just because there is a personal element to this experience does not mean that it is not motivated by a desire for the others suffering to cease.

Re: You are selfish.
« Reply #43 on: January 11, 2014, 08:46:56 AM »
And how would you have felt if you had ignored it and just left it laying there?
I'd probably have forgotten about it. I'm an adult, my emotional state isn't tied to the status of a strangers credit card.
You don't think I'm going to post here sober, do you?  ???

I have embraced my Benny Franko side. I'm sleazy.

Offline Blanko

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Re: You are selfish.
« Reply #44 on: January 11, 2014, 09:11:57 AM »
And how would you have felt if you had ignored it and just left it laying there?
I'd probably have forgotten about it. I'm an adult, my emotional state isn't tied to the status of a strangers credit card.

That's pretty selfish.

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Offline rooster

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Re: You are selfish.
« Reply #45 on: January 11, 2014, 04:02:21 PM »
Every action you undertake necessarily has some connection to you but you cannot tell me that jumping on a grenade has some intrinsic emotional, mental or physical benefit to a person. They jump on it, then die. No karma for them, no reciprocated altruism. Dead.

You also have to consider how it would compare to the trauma and/or potential guilt of having watched your friends get blown to pieces right in front of you.  I think there are plenty of people who would prefer death to that.
Unless he was going to die too and not live with that image at all.

Re: You are selfish.
« Reply #46 on: January 11, 2014, 05:14:23 PM »
And how would you have felt if you had ignored it and just left it laying there?
I'd probably have forgotten about it. I'm an adult, my emotional state isn't tied to the status of a strangers credit card.

That's pretty selfish.
I'd say it's more apathetic than anything.
You don't think I'm going to post here sober, do you?  ???

I have embraced my Benny Franko side. I'm sleazy.

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Offline spoon

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Re: You are selfish.
« Reply #47 on: January 11, 2014, 08:56:12 PM »
And how would you have felt if you had ignored it and just left it laying there?
I'd probably have forgotten about it. I'm an adult, my emotional state isn't tied to the status of a strangers credit card.

That's pretty selfish.
I'd say it's more apathetic than anything.

Apathy doesn't lead to action. Quite the opposite, actually.
inb4 Blanko spoons a literally pizza

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Offline Hoppy

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Re: You are selfish.
« Reply #48 on: January 11, 2014, 09:05:54 PM »
And how would you have felt if you had ignored it and just left it laying there?
I'd probably have forgotten about it. I'm an adult, my emotional state isn't tied to the status of a strangers credit card.

That's pretty selfish.
I'd say it's more apathetic than anything.
I know what you were doing. You were following the command of Jesus. Do on to others as you would have them do to you. If you had lost your credit card, you would have been very happy to find it at the cashier. You Jesus follower you.
God is real.

Re: You are selfish.
« Reply #49 on: January 12, 2014, 12:29:28 AM »
Apathy doesn't lead to action. Quite the opposite, actually.
You're right. In this case, ignoring the credit card would have been not taking action. Hence, apathy.
You don't think I'm going to post here sober, do you?  ???

I have embraced my Benny Franko side. I'm sleazy.

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Offline spoon

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Re: You are selfish.
« Reply #50 on: January 12, 2014, 01:48:27 AM »
Apathy doesn't lead to action. Quite the opposite, actually.
You're right. In this case, ignoring the credit card would have been not taking action. Hence, apathy.
Read the thread again.

You didn't ignore the credit card. You did something about it being lost. You weren't apathetic. You had some feelings associated with the credit card which pushed you into action.
inb4 Blanko spoons a literally pizza

Re: You are selfish.
« Reply #51 on: January 12, 2014, 05:48:49 PM »
Apathy doesn't lead to action. Quite the opposite, actually.
You're right. In this case, ignoring the credit card would have been not taking action. Hence, apathy.
Read the thread again.

You didn't ignore the credit card. You did something about it being lost. You weren't apathetic. You had some feelings associated with the credit card which pushed you into action.
Yes, altruism. Which is, by definition, not selfish.
You don't think I'm going to post here sober, do you?  ???

I have embraced my Benny Franko side. I'm sleazy.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: You are selfish.
« Reply #52 on: January 12, 2014, 07:41:07 PM »
Why did you give the credit card to the proper authorities rather than leaving it on the ground for a criminal to find? Those criminals need to put food on their plates too.

Is it because YOU felt it was the right thing to do? Is it because YOU wanted to impose your morals of justice and altruism by taking action, rather than letting nature take its course? Is it because YOU know the cardholder of unknown integrity deserves the money more than a desperate criminal, of whom you know nothing about?

It's all about you and how you think things should be, forcing your morals onto events. Selfish.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2014, 07:52:28 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: You are selfish.
« Reply #53 on: January 12, 2014, 07:43:22 PM »
Since Tom seems to mistake selfish with subjective:

self·ish
ˈselfiSH/
adjective
1.
(of a person, action, or motive) lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure.
"I joined them for selfish reasons"
synonyms:   egocentric, egotistic, egotistical, egomaniacal, self-centered, self-absorbed, self-obsessed, self-seeking, self-serving, wrapped up in oneself; More
antonyms:   altruistic


sub·jec·tive
səbˈjektiv/
adjective
1.
based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.
"his views are highly subjective"
synonyms:   personal, individual, emotional, instinctive, intuitive More
antonyms:   objective
dependent on the mind or on an individual's perception for its existence.


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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: You are selfish.
« Reply #54 on: January 12, 2014, 07:49:42 PM »
Quote
1.
(of a person, action, or motive) lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure.

Where is the consideration for the desperate criminals, who arguably needs the money more than a random stranger, whose credit card is likely insured by a FDIC bank?
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: You are selfish.
« Reply #55 on: January 12, 2014, 07:57:41 PM »
Which criminals? 

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: You are selfish.
« Reply #56 on: January 12, 2014, 08:06:21 PM »
Which criminals?

The ones which exist by the millions in every country. Turning in the credit card may have caused them increased hardship. Who is Franklin to know that a FDIC bank deserves the money more than a desperate criminal in his area who may have picked it up?

He imposed his morals on an event, rather than letting nature take its course, because he deemed it the 'right' thing to do. Forcing your morals on the nature of things is selfish.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2014, 02:40:18 AM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: You are selfish.
« Reply #57 on: January 12, 2014, 08:09:41 PM »
Riiiight. So now the answer to dealing with criminals is to encourage credit card fraud?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: You are selfish.
« Reply #58 on: January 12, 2014, 08:12:23 PM »
It is just as if a tourist on safari saved the life of a Zebra by scaring all the lions away because he thought it was wrong that the Zebra should die. That action is inconsiderate to the lions who will endure hardship because of that action. It is not for the tourist to decide what is right and wrong in nature. Forcing his morality on nature is selfish.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: You are selfish.
« Reply #59 on: January 12, 2014, 08:14:32 PM »
So credit fraud is your solution to curbing criminal behavior?