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Offline QED

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Re: Who created god?
« Reply #60 on: May 01, 2019, 10:45:39 AM »

Also, and interesting aside: modern neuroscience research has found that the parts of our brain associated with making decisions activate prior to the parts of our brain responsible for contemplating what decision to make. So it may be true that we actually decide what to do before we are aware of it - and our rational process simply operates to justify it. In doing so, we believe that the order is the other way and our decision comes as a result of the cognition.

But if this research is true, then free will is destroyed by a purely physical argument. We don’t intentionally choose anything, our choice is already made before we think about it.

Not necessarily.  We have instinct and a first reaction.  If we prick our finger, we jerk back in pain without thinking.  If we suddenly see something scary, instinct will tell us to be afraid until our brains can process what it is and if we should fear it.  Its all to keep us alive.  To make our decision process in survival situations faster, if incomplete.  Free will can still change what we do and you can relearn instinct.

Now those reactions are governed by our “reptilian” brain, and so do not involve rational thought at all. Hence, I would not consider them useful in a discussion about free-will.
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Re: Who created god?
« Reply #61 on: July 10, 2019, 08:28:52 PM »
Firstly: it's 'faith' not 'fact'
If He made his presence known (massive public miracles on Earth, lose all power, dry up the seas, etc) EVERYONE would believe and then we could not judge others. He would not have anyone to judge. We would not need Him, all would know and believe.  The experiment would be over.

Secondly: for the narrative to be closed loop He had to be eternal, no beginning or end, otherwise it begs the question who made Him or will end Him?

Applying logic to faith is as fruitless as trying to apply it to 'love'.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2019, 08:31:36 PM by Snoopy »
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Offline timterroo

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Re: Who created god?
« Reply #62 on: July 13, 2019, 04:17:32 PM »
Been a while since I read this thread. Good to see its still in progress!

I agree with QED that our brains are capable of making a decision before we consciously realize we have a decision to make. If you disagree with this notion, I suggest you read Daniel dennetts "consciousness explained".... The brain is not a serial processor, however our consciousness is.

Take the experience of "Deja vu". Youve experienced something that seems so familiar, it's like it already happened to you, you just can't remember when.... What is happening in the brain here?

It's actually rather simple: your brain has stored information in long term memory before your conscious brain has processed it - this is parallel processing. Thus, when you become conscious of said thing, you quickly compare the experience to the stored information in your brain and since our consciousness is serial, you assume you have already experienced it.

Regarding snoopys comment about God making himself known and then everyone would believe.... That is false as the old testiment shows us. God was all powerful and directly influential in the old testiment yet God did not have everyone believing in him. That is why God ultimately recended from physical interaction and sent his son to save our pathetic selves.

Regarding free will. This is a concept that comes from 3-dimensional perspective. We always move forward in time and we perceive that we can somehow influence this forward motion. However, from a 4-dimensional perspective, there is no time and no beginning or end. Everything is seen all at once: past, present, and future are known all at once. So where is free will? How can you change the future if it is already in the picture?

"noche te ipsum"

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."  - Albert Einstein

Re: Who created god?
« Reply #63 on: July 17, 2019, 02:58:47 PM »
However, from a 4-dimensional perspective, there is no time and no beginning or end. Everything is seen all at once: past, present, and future are known all at once. So where is free will? How can you change the future if it is already in the picture?
I never understand this argument.
I've said this before but if I offer you the choice of two activities, one you hate doing and one you really enjoy, you're going to choose the one you enjoy.
If I know your preferences well enough I might know what you're going to choose, but I'm still giving you the same choice.
The only difference is my knowledge, nothing else about your experience of the choice changes. You are free to choose whichever you wish.

Let's say you're watching a sports event live on TV and I am watching it on an internet stream which is delayed from the TV broadcast by a minute.
You know ahead of me what is going to happen but unless you tell me my experience of watching the event is exactly the same as yours.
Your foreknowledge of what I'm about to see in no way changes what I see or how I react to it.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline timterroo

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Re: Who created god?
« Reply #64 on: July 17, 2019, 03:52:50 PM »
However, from a 4-dimensional perspective, there is no time and no beginning or end. Everything is seen all at once: past, present, and future are known all at once. So where is free will? How can you change the future if it is already in the picture?
I never understand this argument.
I've said this before but if I offer you the choice of two activities, one you hate doing and one you really enjoy, you're going to choose the one you enjoy.
If I know your preferences well enough I might know what you're going to choose, but I'm still giving you the same choice.
The only difference is my knowledge, nothing else about your experience of the choice changes. You are free to choose whichever you wish.

Let's say you're watching a sports event live on TV and I am watching it on an internet stream which is delayed from the TV broadcast by a minute.
You know ahead of me what is going to happen but unless you tell me my experience of watching the event is exactly the same as yours.
Your foreknowledge of what I'm about to see in no way changes what I see or how I react to it.

The argument, although fun to think about, is flawed in the sense that there is no way to prove any of it. Does the 4th dimension exist? I think it does, but that is my personal belief.

Here is a thought exercise:

Let's say you have two choices, pizza or spaghetti.

At this particular cross-road, you have a decision to make - "what will I eat?"

Suppose I choose pizza (because who wouldn't?!), and now I have gone down the pizza road. The choice was made, however, since I can never go back in time to re-evaluate that choice (at that time), did I really have a choice? Was eating spaghetti (at that junction) ever REALLY a choice? How can you say it was a choice? Regardless how many 'branches' there are on the road, you can ultimately only go down one road. So, philosophically, you will never know if you ACTUALLY had the choice, or if the choice had you.

That is another way to look at it.....

Suppose it is not us who makes the choice, but rather the choice that makes us? Maybe each pathway chooses us, rather than we choosing the pathway? Again, how can you prove or disprove such a thing?
"noche te ipsum"

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."  - Albert Einstein

Re: Who created god?
« Reply #65 on: July 17, 2019, 05:09:24 PM »
However, from a 4-dimensional perspective, there is no time and no beginning or end. Everything is seen all at once: past, present, and future are known all at once. So where is free will? How can you change the future if it is already in the picture?
I never understand this argument.
I've said this before but if I offer you the choice of two activities, one you hate doing and one you really enjoy, you're going to choose the one you enjoy.
If I know your preferences well enough I might know what you're going to choose, but I'm still giving you the same choice.
The only difference is my knowledge, nothing else about your experience of the choice changes. You are free to choose whichever you wish.

Let's say you're watching a sports event live on TV and I am watching it on an internet stream which is delayed from the TV broadcast by a minute.
You know ahead of me what is going to happen but unless you tell me my experience of watching the event is exactly the same as yours.
Your foreknowledge of what I'm about to see in no way changes what I see or how I react to it.

The argument, although fun to think about, is flawed in the sense that there is no way to prove any of it. Does the 4th dimension exist? I think it does, but that is my personal belief.

Here is a thought exercise:

Let's say you have two choices, pizza or spaghetti.

At this particular cross-road, you have a decision to make - "what will I eat?"

Suppose I choose pizza (because who wouldn't?!), and now I have gone down the pizza road. The choice was made, however, since I can never go back in time to re-evaluate that choice (at that time), did I really have a choice? Was eating spaghetti (at that junction) ever REALLY a choice? How can you say it was a choice? Regardless how many 'branches' there are on the road, you can ultimately only go down one road. So, philosophically, you will never know if you ACTUALLY had the choice, or if the choice had you.

That is another way to look at it.....

Suppose it is not us who makes the choice, but rather the choice that makes us? Maybe each pathway chooses us, rather than we choosing the pathway? Again, how can you prove or disprove such a thing?

The 4th dimension is time.  Time exists.  We know because we have memory.

And while I see the philosophical view, well... You still have a choice.  It may be predictable but its still a choice.

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Offline timterroo

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Re: Who created god?
« Reply #66 on: July 18, 2019, 01:19:48 PM »
However, from a 4-dimensional perspective, there is no time and no beginning or end. Everything is seen all at once: past, present, and future are known all at once. So where is free will? How can you change the future if it is already in the picture?
I never understand this argument.
I've said this before but if I offer you the choice of two activities, one you hate doing and one you really enjoy, you're going to choose the one you enjoy.
If I know your preferences well enough I might know what you're going to choose, but I'm still giving you the same choice.
The only difference is my knowledge, nothing else about your experience of the choice changes. You are free to choose whichever you wish.

Let's say you're watching a sports event live on TV and I am watching it on an internet stream which is delayed from the TV broadcast by a minute.
You know ahead of me what is going to happen but unless you tell me my experience of watching the event is exactly the same as yours.
Your foreknowledge of what I'm about to see in no way changes what I see or how I react to it.

The argument, although fun to think about, is flawed in the sense that there is no way to prove any of it. Does the 4th dimension exist? I think it does, but that is my personal belief.

Here is a thought exercise:

Let's say you have two choices, pizza or spaghetti.

At this particular cross-road, you have a decision to make - "what will I eat?"

Suppose I choose pizza (because who wouldn't?!), and now I have gone down the pizza road. The choice was made, however, since I can never go back in time to re-evaluate that choice (at that time), did I really have a choice? Was eating spaghetti (at that junction) ever REALLY a choice? How can you say it was a choice? Regardless how many 'branches' there are on the road, you can ultimately only go down one road. So, philosophically, you will never know if you ACTUALLY had the choice, or if the choice had you.

That is another way to look at it.....

Suppose it is not us who makes the choice, but rather the choice that makes us? Maybe each pathway chooses us, rather than we choosing the pathway? Again, how can you prove or disprove such a thing?

The 4th dimension is time.  Time exists.  We know because we have memory.

And while I see the philosophical view, well... You still have a choice.  It may be predictable but its still a choice.

Correct, time does exist, but it exists to us differently than it would if you were actually in 4th dimension.

Allow me to explain:

Let's say you have a single dot in a fixed plane. This is the 0-dimension. How does a 0-dimensional object describe a 1-dimentional object? In other words, how does a dot describe a line?... As a series of dots.

Now, how does a line describe a square? As a series of lines. How does a square describe a cube? As a series of squares. I think you get the point..... In each case, you have a less descriptive object trying to describe a more descriptive object using its own narrow perspective. Now what about other 3-dimensional objects such as ourselves? How do we describe the 4th dimension? As a series of 3-dimensional objects. We call this time. But just as a 3-dimensional object sees other 3-dimensional objects as 3 dimensions, wouldn't 4th dimensional objects see themselves as 4th dimensional objects, and NOT as time? Imagine what we would look like if we could see ourselves in 4th dimension..... that would just be weird.  So what is 'time' to a 4th dimensional object? Time is nothing more than a way to describe a dimension that is outside of your perspective.
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Who created god?
« Reply #67 on: July 18, 2019, 02:20:58 PM »
The problem with this analogy is that this 4th dimension isn’t a spatial dimension and is perceived differently. It might mostly be a moot point.

I also think memory is a terrible proof that time exists since humans are notoriously good at constructing memories from nothing.
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Offline timterroo

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Re: Who created god?
« Reply #68 on: July 18, 2019, 02:59:26 PM »
The problem with this analogy is that this 4th dimension isn’t a spatial dimension and is perceived differently. It might mostly be a moot point.

I also think memory is a terrible proof that time exists since humans are notoriously good at constructing memories from nothing.

The 4th dimension isn't spacial when you exist within the 3rd dimension. Just like a square isn't spacial to a line, and line isn't spacial to a dot, yet we (being in 3rd dimension) know that these objects ARE spacial. The lesser dimension knows nothing about the spacial qualities of the greater dimension. So, are you SURE that the 4th dimension isn't spacial? If so, how can you be sure?

Edit: Another way to look at it might be to take a dot, and iterate it (over time) to a point in the future. That dot has now traversed a line. Take a line and iterate it (over time) to a point in the future, and that line has now traversed a square, and so on...... each dimension when factoring in time, begins to perceive the higher dimension.

Regarding memory as proof of time, I agree, memory is only proof that we can hallucinate. ;)
« Last Edit: July 18, 2019, 03:21:35 PM by timterroo »
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Who created god?
« Reply #69 on: July 18, 2019, 03:05:54 PM »
The problem with this analogy is that this 4th dimension isn’t a spatial dimension and is perceived differently. It might mostly be a moot point.

I also think memory is a terrible proof that time exists since humans are notoriously good at constructing memories from nothing.

The 4th dimension isn't spacial when you exist within the 3rd dimension. Just like a square isn't spacial to a line, and line isn't spacial to a dot, yet we (being in 3rd dimension) know that these objects ARE spacial. The lesser dimension knows nothing about the spacial qualities of the greater dimension. So, are you SURE that the 4th dimension isn't spacial? If so, how can you be sure?


Sorry for the curt reply, but it is not spatial because that is how it is defined. If it were spatial, we would no longer be talking about the same thing.
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Offline timterroo

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Re: Who created god?
« Reply #70 on: July 18, 2019, 03:14:15 PM »
The problem with this analogy is that this 4th dimension isn’t a spatial dimension and is perceived differently. It might mostly be a moot point.

I also think memory is a terrible proof that time exists since humans are notoriously good at constructing memories from nothing.

The 4th dimension isn't spacial when you exist within the 3rd dimension. Just like a square isn't spacial to a line, and line isn't spacial to a dot, yet we (being in 3rd dimension) know that these objects ARE spacial. The lesser dimension knows nothing about the spacial qualities of the greater dimension. So, are you SURE that the 4th dimension isn't spacial? If so, how can you be sure?


Sorry for the curt reply, but it is not spatial because that is how it is defined. If it were spatial, we would no longer be talking about the same thing.

Hmmm... I don't follow... just because we have defined the 4th dimension as time does not prove or disprove that it isn't also spacial. My whole point is that we perceive it as time because we have no other way to describe it - just like a dot has no other way to describe a line other than iterating itself through time. Just as we do in our 3rd dimension.

Edit: I think I added a bit in my previous post as an edit that you might not have read that helps further explain how time interacts with dimensions....
« Last Edit: July 18, 2019, 03:20:43 PM by timterroo »
"noche te ipsum"

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."  - Albert Einstein

Re: Who created god?
« Reply #71 on: July 24, 2019, 08:57:44 AM »
A lot of children have an invisible friend, most grow out of it. Some retain their friend, it develops into god.
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Re: Who created god?
« Reply #72 on: July 24, 2019, 09:52:33 AM »
However, from a 4-dimensional perspective, there is no time and no beginning or end. Everything is seen all at once: past, present, and future are known all at once. So where is free will? How can you change the future if it is already in the picture?
I never understand this argument.
I've said this before but if I offer you the choice of two activities, one you hate doing and one you really enjoy, you're going to choose the one you enjoy.
If I know your preferences well enough I might know what you're going to choose, but I'm still giving you the same choice.
The only difference is my knowledge, nothing else about your experience of the choice changes. You are free to choose whichever you wish.

Let's say you're watching a sports event live on TV and I am watching it on an internet stream which is delayed from the TV broadcast by a minute.
You know ahead of me what is going to happen but unless you tell me my experience of watching the event is exactly the same as yours.
Your foreknowledge of what I'm about to see in no way changes what I see or how I react to it.

The argument, although fun to think about, is flawed in the sense that there is no way to prove any of it. Does the 4th dimension exist? I think it does, but that is my personal belief.

Here is a thought exercise:

Let's say you have two choices, pizza or spaghetti.

At this particular cross-road, you have a decision to make - "what will I eat?"

Suppose I choose pizza (because who wouldn't?!), and now I have gone down the pizza road. The choice was made, however, since I can never go back in time to re-evaluate that choice (at that time), did I really have a choice? Was eating spaghetti (at that junction) ever REALLY a choice? How can you say it was a choice? Regardless how many 'branches' there are on the road, you can ultimately only go down one road. So, philosophically, you will never know if you ACTUALLY had the choice, or if the choice had you.

That is another way to look at it.....

Suppose it is not us who makes the choice, but rather the choice that makes us? Maybe each pathway chooses us, rather than we choosing the pathway? Again, how can you prove or disprove such a thing?

The 4th dimension is time.  Time exists.  We know because we have memory.

And while I see the philosophical view, well... You still have a choice.  It may be predictable but its still a choice.

Correct, time does exist, but it exists to us differently than it would if you were actually in 4th dimension.

Allow me to explain:

Let's say you have a single dot in a fixed plane. This is the 0-dimension. How does a 0-dimensional object describe a 1-dimentional object? In other words, how does a dot describe a line?... As a series of dots.

Now, how does a line describe a square? As a series of lines. How does a square describe a cube? As a series of squares. I think you get the point..... In each case, you have a less descriptive object trying to describe a more descriptive object using its own narrow perspective. Now what about other 3-dimensional objects such as ourselves? How do we describe the 4th dimension? As a series of 3-dimensional objects. We call this time. But just as a 3-dimensional object sees other 3-dimensional objects as 3 dimensions, wouldn't 4th dimensional objects see themselves as 4th dimensional objects, and NOT as time? Imagine what we would look like if we could see ourselves in 4th dimension..... that would just be weird.  So what is 'time' to a 4th dimensional object? Time is nothing more than a way to describe a dimension that is outside of your perspective.

Except each new dimension is built on the previous.
The 0th dimension is a dot.
The 1st is a series of dots to form a line.
The 2nd is series of lines stacked up to form shapes.  (Think an ink jet printer printing to paper)
The 3rd is a series of 2D planes stacked up together infinitely.
The 4th is a series of 3D planes stacked up together infinitely.


The problem with this analogy is that this 4th dimension isn’t a spatial dimension and is perceived differently. It might mostly be a moot point.

I also think memory is a terrible proof that time exists since humans are notoriously good at constructing memories from nothing.

Yes but the fact that we can do anything proves time exists.  Change proves time. 

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Offline timterroo

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Re: Who created god?
« Reply #73 on: July 25, 2019, 10:46:15 PM »

Except each new dimension is built on the previous.
The 0th dimension is a dot.
The 1st is a series of dots to form a line.
The 2nd is series of lines stacked up to form shapes.  (Think an ink jet printer printing to paper)
The 3rd is a series of 2D planes stacked up together infinitely.
The 4th is a series of 3D planes stacked up together infinitely.


Here is my quote:

Quote
Let's say you have a single dot in a fixed plane. This is the 0-dimension. How does a 0-dimensional object describe a 1-dimentional object? In other words, how does a dot describe a line?... As a series of dots.

Now, how does a line describe a square? As a series of lines. How does a square describe a cube? As a series of squares. How do we describe the 4th dimension? As a series of 3-dimensional objects. We call this time.

I hope you can see that you are literally saying the exact same thing as I am.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2019, 10:51:52 PM by timterroo »
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Re: Who created god?
« Reply #74 on: July 25, 2019, 11:46:57 PM »
Except each new dimension is built on the previous.
The 0th dimension is a dot.
The 1st is a series of dots to form a line.
The 2nd is series of lines stacked up to form shapes.  (Think an ink jet printer printing to paper)
The 3rd is a series of 2D planes stacked up together infinitely.
The 4th is a series of 3D planes stacked up together infinitely.

A 4th spatial dimension would fit this series, but not a temporal dimension.


The problem with this analogy is that this 4th dimension isn’t a spatial dimension and is perceived differently. It might mostly be a moot point.

I also think memory is a terrible proof that time exists since humans are notoriously good at constructing memories from nothing.

Yes but the fact that we can do anything proves time exists.  Change proves time.
[/quote]

Totally agree, but memory has nothing to do with change.
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Offline timterroo

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Re: Who created god?
« Reply #75 on: July 26, 2019, 12:16:18 AM »
Except each new dimension is built on the previous.
The 0th dimension is a dot.
The 1st is a series of dots to form a line.
The 2nd is series of lines stacked up to form shapes.  (Think an ink jet printer printing to paper)
The 3rd is a series of 2D planes stacked up together infinitely.
The 4th is a series of 3D planes stacked up together infinitely.

A 4th spatial dimension would fit this series, but not a temporal dimension.




Unless you were a 4-dimensional object trying to describe the 5th dimension. In this case, 4-dimensions can iterate to infinity with respect to time.
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Re: Who created god?
« Reply #76 on: July 26, 2019, 01:59:41 PM »
You were asking earlier if there was difference between temporal and spatial dimensions and from what I’ve been able to find out the difference, from a mathematical perspective is this: any change in spatial coordinates requires a change in a temporal coordinates. A change in temporal coordinates does not require a change in spatial coordinates. I’m not sure it’s extremely relevant at this point in the conversation, but I thought it was interesting.
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Offline timterroo

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Re: Who created god?
« Reply #77 on: July 26, 2019, 03:04:13 PM »
You were asking earlier if there was difference between temporal and spatial dimensions and from what I’ve been able to find out the difference, from a mathematical perspective is this: any change in spatial coordinates requires a change in a temporal coordinates. A change in temporal coordinates does not require a change in spatial coordinates. I’m not sure it’s extremely relevant at this point in the conversation, but I thought it was interesting.

Hmmm. I would be interested in reading more about this concept. Is this Newtonian?

I read up a little on Einstein's spacetime theory, and it blows my mind to think about space and time this way - as space and time being a single, in-separable, entity. Seems completely non-intuitive and counters Newton's theories.
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Re: Who created god?
« Reply #78 on: July 26, 2019, 06:44:09 PM »
You were asking earlier if there was difference between temporal and spatial dimensions and from what I’ve been able to find out the difference, from a mathematical perspective is this: any change in spatial coordinates requires a change in a temporal coordinates. A change in temporal coordinates does not require a change in spatial coordinates. I’m not sure it’s extremely relevant at this point in the conversation, but I thought it was interesting.

Hmmm. I would be interested in reading more about this concept. Is this Newtonian?

I read up a little on Einstein's spacetime theory, and it blows my mind to think about space and time this way - as space and time being a single, in-separable, entity. Seems completely non-intuitive and counters Newton's theories.

This is non-Newtonian. Traveling through space-like dimensions without changing temporal coordinates implies infinite velocity which is prohibited according to every physical theory I know of.
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Offline timterroo

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Re: Who created god?
« Reply #79 on: July 26, 2019, 06:53:47 PM »
You were asking earlier if there was difference between temporal and spatial dimensions and from what I’ve been able to find out the difference, from a mathematical perspective is this: any change in spatial coordinates requires a change in a temporal coordinates. A change in temporal coordinates does not require a change in spatial coordinates. I’m not sure it’s extremely relevant at this point in the conversation, but I thought it was interesting.

Hmmm. I would be interested in reading more about this concept. Is this Newtonian?

I read up a little on Einstein's spacetime theory, and it blows my mind to think about space and time this way - as space and time being a single, in-separable, entity. Seems completely non-intuitive and counters Newton's theories.

This is non-Newtonian. Traveling through space-like dimensions without changing temporal coordinates implies infinite velocity which is prohibited according to every physical theory I know of.

That sounds a bit like warp speed!

Or teleportation...
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