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Offline timterroo

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Re: Who created god?
« Reply #40 on: December 21, 2018, 01:57:23 AM »
Sounds like an amazing experience. I have had the feeling of time falling away and perceiving the totality of reality. It’s a profound experience.

Do you think it is a coincidence that when our consciousness is thwarted, or removed entirely, that we generally experience a 'connectedness' with the universe? I don't think it is a coincidence at all. I think we are actually connected to the universe in the way we perceive it during those moments of hypnotic or psychedelic trance. We are just incapable of experiencing those things during normal conscious operation because our brains are so very well adapt to perceiving reality as most of us do. In fact, some would say that our conscious reality as we know it is merely a controlled hallucination in itself. Our brains are wired to receive (and perceive) a plethora of experiences, but our normal brain chemistry keeps things pretty well contained.
"noche te ipsum"

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Who created god?
« Reply #41 on: December 21, 2018, 02:45:06 AM »
We certainly feel more connected to our world when we diminish our egos and pay attention to our surroundings. To me, whether or not that is an inherent property of consciousness is irrelevant. The experience and the wisdom it teaches is what matters.
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

Max_Almond

Re: Who created god?
« Reply #42 on: December 21, 2018, 06:32:44 AM »
Well said you guys. Nice to see people getting along. :)

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Offline Boodidlie

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Re: Who created god?
« Reply #43 on: April 26, 2019, 01:55:08 AM »
Who created God ???? .....
God is an eternal being .. God has no beginning and no end ...
God is separate from time .. God CREATED time ...
God sees the beginning and the end all in one glance

.............. more about God here

« Last Edit: April 26, 2019, 01:56:51 AM by Boodidlie »
..................................................... ><> God's ability is according to his will <><

Offline Science Supporter

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Re: Who created god?
« Reply #44 on: April 26, 2019, 02:18:12 AM »
Who created god?

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." Revelations 22:13
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Offline QED

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Re: Who created god?
« Reply #45 on: April 29, 2019, 02:32:11 PM »
We certainly feel more connected to our world when we diminish our egos and pay attention to our surroundings. To me, whether or not that is an inherent property of consciousness is irrelevant. The experience and the wisdom it teaches is what matters.

Few questions.

1. The question of ego. I’ve heard it said that atheists are rather egotistical to not believe in a god. But I have a hard time with this. It isn’t that I believe positive evidence exists which proves gods don’t exist, I just have no found compelling evidence which proves they do.

What is more egotistical?

A) claiming knowledge of an infinite being, infinitely beyond our capabilities in every manner, and who is responsible for everything — this claiming knowledge of the most powerful being possible

B) Being uncertain that mere humans are able to understand or evaluate an infinite being, and thus recognizing that evidence for one would be beyond our ability to understand.

It seems that atheists are more humble.

2. The question of wisdom.

It strikes me as wise to proportion beliefs with evidence. If I believe something which has no evidence, then I am more likely to draw incorrect conclusions, and more likely to believe other claims on poor evidence. This seem unwise, no?
The fact.that it's an old equation without good.demonstration of the underlying mechamism behind it makes.it more invalid, not more valid!

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Re: Who created god?
« Reply #46 on: April 30, 2019, 09:06:12 AM »
It isn’t that I believe positive evidence exists which proves gods don’t exist
Out of interest, what is that evidence?

Quote
I just have no found compelling evidence which proves they do.

I don't know what evidence you'd expect to find, apart from personal experience which is highly subjective.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline QED

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Re: Who created god?
« Reply #47 on: April 30, 2019, 12:06:16 PM »
It isn’t that I believe positive evidence exists which proves gods don’t exist
Out of interest, what is that evidence?

Quote
I just have no found compelling evidence which proves they do.

I don't know what evidence you'd expect to find, apart from personal experience which is highly subjective.

I am not convinced that evidence is even possible. How would I distinguish between evidence for a highly advanced being and a god?

I do not know how supernatural evidence can even be examined.

I believe arguments exist which demonstrate particular gods likely don’t exist. For example, I can take the Christian god, who is:

1. All knowing
2. All powerful
3. All loving

(a) the fact that evil exists means only 2 of the above 3 can be operative.

(b) it is not possible for there to be free will if all 3 are correct - and free will is a tenet of Christianity. Proof:

God can create any universe he wants, and every universe is possible for him to make. He also knows everything that will happen beforehand in any universe he may create.

He created this universe - where you are reading this right now. Plus, he KNEW this would happen before he made it. He knew every action you would ever take, and specifically chose to make the particular universe where you would make them - rather than another where you would choose differently.

There is no free will there. Everything was pre-ordained and chosen.

The fact.that it's an old equation without good.demonstration of the underlying mechamism behind it makes.it more invalid, not more valid!

- Tom Bishop

We try to represent FET in a model-agnostic way

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Re: Who created god?
« Reply #48 on: April 30, 2019, 12:29:05 PM »
Sorry, dude. I misread your message. I thought you said
"I believe positive evidence exists which proves gods don’t exist" and missed out the "it isn't that"!

I disagree with your analysis. I can believe in an all powerful God who still allows me to rebel against him. Could he stop me? Sure. But then I'd be a robot with no choice other than to obey him. A relationship where one party has no choice in the matter is meaningless. That's why I believe God gave us free will. And we do have free will.

People who know me know that I'm a Beatles nut.
So if I had a choice to go and see, say, The Spice Girls or Paul McCartney then for me it's McCartney all the way. Now, whatever people think about my musical taste, people who know me would know what decision I would make. Their knowledge of me doesn't remove my free choice in the matter. Now, they might be wrong in their prediction but if God knows us perfectly then he will never be wrong. But that doesn't mean that we didn't have a free choice.

There's a difference between a magician who uses a "force" so they know the card you're going to pick - you never really had a free choice in the first place, they made you chose that card - and someone who has memorised the order of the cards so you have a genuinely free choice, they just happen to know that the 23rd card is the three of clubs. It is their knowledge which allowed them to discern your choice, not because they made you.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline WellRoundedIndividual

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Re: Who created god?
« Reply #49 on: April 30, 2019, 01:56:46 PM »
You should research the Kalam Argument and the Argument from Contingency. There have been hundreds of philosophers who have debated this very topic. Much more in depth than what is being discussed here.

Basically, the Kalam argument pairs with the Argument from Contingency, in that the Kalam argument states that the universe cannot just have always existed. This would imply an infinitely old universe, which is logically impossible because the first premise which should be logically accepted by all sane people states that all things have a cause. Therefore if all things have a cause there are steps to which that cause happened. In an infinitely old universe, each step is infinite and can never be reached. So, the universe is not infinitely old. Now with the contingency argument, if something exists, there must exist something outside of the other thing that allowed the other thing to exist. The universe exists (space and time), therefore there must be something that exists outside of space and time that allowed the universe to exist.
BobLawBlah.

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Offline QED

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Re: Who created god?
« Reply #50 on: April 30, 2019, 03:22:48 PM »
Sorry, dude. I misread your message. I thought you said
"I believe positive evidence exists which proves gods don’t exist" and missed out the "it isn't that"!

I disagree with your analysis. I can believe in an all powerful God who still allows me to rebel against him. Could he stop me? Sure. But then I'd be a robot with no choice other than to obey him. A relationship where one party has no choice in the matter is meaningless. That's why I believe God gave us free will. And we do have free will.

People who know me know that I'm a Beatles nut.
So if I had a choice to go and see, say, The Spice Girls or Paul McCartney then for me it's McCartney all the way. Now, whatever people think about my musical taste, people who know me would know what decision I would make. Their knowledge of me doesn't remove my free choice in the matter. Now, they might be wrong in their prediction but if God knows us perfectly then he will never be wrong. But that doesn't mean that we didn't have a free choice.

There's a difference between a magician who uses a "force" so they know the card you're going to pick - you never really had a free choice in the first place, they made you chose that card - and someone who has memorised the order of the cards so you have a genuinely free choice, they just happen to know that the 23rd card is the three of clubs. It is their knowledge which allowed them to discern your choice, not because they made you.

No problem.

This is good - we have an actual debate here over free will. My rebuttal for you:

Ignorance of what choice we can/will make is not free will.

I place an ant in a big box - so big that it never happens to find the boundary before it dies. It lives it’s whole life believing it has free will, but it does not. I cannot leave the box. Hence, ignorance of lack of choice is not free will.

God could have created a universe where I was Jewish, or a woman, or a psycho. All possibilities exist. He intentionally created the world where the next “random” word I write is: bumblefuck, instead of topaz. And he knew this. And he made it so.

Whether I know it or not is irrelevant. Where is free will here? Every single decision I will ever make was known and chosen to be beforehand. If I have free will, then logically gos cannot be all 3 properties I mentioned earlier.
The fact.that it's an old equation without good.demonstration of the underlying mechamism behind it makes.it more invalid, not more valid!

- Tom Bishop

We try to represent FET in a model-agnostic way

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Re: Who created god?
« Reply #51 on: April 30, 2019, 03:31:47 PM »
I think you're over-thinking it a bit.
I maintain that someone knowing you well enough to know what choices you will make does not restrict your freedom to make them.
And all you have done to the ant is limit their environment, they are still free to behave and move within that environment as they see fit.
I cannot teleport or fly but that is not a restriction on my free will, merely a limitation of the physical universe I live in.

If you read a book then you have no control over what happens next, if you write a book then you do.

PS: Nice to be taking to a grown-up!
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline WellRoundedIndividual

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Re: Who created god?
« Reply #52 on: April 30, 2019, 03:40:02 PM »
Free will is a separate discussion from the existence of God. It is a misunderstanding of the concept of God. God exists outside of time and space - see previous comment. We exist in time. God does not "foresee." He sees all at the same time, because he exists outside of time.

Your argument against free will suffers from the Modal fallacy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_fallacy
BobLawBlah.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Who created god?
« Reply #53 on: April 30, 2019, 05:28:44 PM »
You should research the Kalam Argument and the Argument from Contingency. There have been hundreds of philosophers who have debated this very topic. Much more in depth than what is being discussed here.

Basically, the Kalam argument pairs with the Argument from Contingency, in that the Kalam argument states that the universe cannot just have always existed. This would imply an infinitely old universe, which is logically impossible because the first premise which should be logically accepted by all sane people states that all things have a cause. Therefore if all things have a cause there are steps to which that cause happened. In an infinitely old universe, each step is infinite and can never be reached. So, the universe is not infinitely old. Now with the contingency argument, if something exists, there must exist something outside of the other thing that allowed the other thing to exist. The universe exists (space and time), therefore there must be something that exists outside of space and time that allowed the universe to exist.

The kalam argument is flawed in assuming that the first premise is true*.  Causation may not apply to things like universes, only their contents.  I have seen physicists talk about models that plausibly posit an eternal universe.  I am not saying that is the truth, but premise 1 of kalam is by no means a given.  The other flaw with kalam is that it does not address the infinite regress of who created the creator.  I've heard William Lane Craig describe why this shouldn't apply to god, but it smacks of special pleading.

QED posted a really interesting debate between Craig and Sean Carroll where these issues are addressed.

*I believe the first premise actually reads, 'Everything that begins to exist must have a cause'. At least that is the form Craig uses.

 
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Offline WellRoundedIndividual

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Re: Who created god?
« Reply #54 on: April 30, 2019, 06:35:54 PM »
I agree that there are some possible and plausible posited theories that argue against the truth of the first statement. But there has been no physical manifestation, as we know it, that has refuted this statement (falsified). Some argue that on the quantum level, that the first premise is falsified - but I side with Craig in stating that even virtual particles are coming from something.

But back to the logical side of it. If you look at the statement that if things have always existed - then they must have existed infinitely. How can you distinguish one point in infinity from another point infinity? It would take you an infinite amount of time to get from Infinite point B to Infinite point C (fuck point A, lol). So therefore, logically, the universe has not always existed, and therefore something outside the bounds of time and space must have created the universe (space and time). And therefore there must exist something that lives outside of time and space - whatever label you want to put on it.
BobLawBlah.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Who created god?
« Reply #55 on: April 30, 2019, 06:49:55 PM »
I agree that there are some possible and plausible posited theories that argue against the truth of the first statement. But there has been no physical manifestation, as we know it, that has refuted this statement (falsified). Some argue that on the quantum level, that the first premise is falsified - but I side with Craig in stating that even virtual particles are coming from something.

Why would you agree with a professional apologist on a matter well outside his area of expertise?

Quote
But back to the logical side of it. If you look at the statement that if things have always existed - then they must have existed infinitely. How can you distinguish one point in infinity from another point infinity? It would take you an infinite amount of time to get from Infinite point B to Infinite point C (fuck point A, lol). So therefore, logically, the universe has not always existed, and therefore something outside the bounds of time and space must have created the universe (space and time). And therefore there must exist something that lives outside of time and space - whatever label you want to put on it.

What does being able to distinguish points in space or time have to do with them existing?  Cosmologists also posit that the time dimension itself need to not have existed eternally.
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Offline WellRoundedIndividual

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Re: Who created god?
« Reply #56 on: April 30, 2019, 07:03:41 PM »
Why do you disagree or agree with something that is obviously outside of both of our area's of expertise? Who gives a shit? We are merely discussing theological theories using logical progressions of thought experiments.
BobLawBlah.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Who created god?
« Reply #57 on: April 30, 2019, 08:37:51 PM »
Why do you disagree or agree with something that is obviously outside of both of our area's of expertise? Who gives a shit? We are merely discussing theological theories using logical progressions of thought experiments.

Right.  Ok!  Have a good time playing by yourself!
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Offline QED

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Re: Who created god?
« Reply #58 on: May 01, 2019, 03:55:34 AM »
I think you're over-thinking it a bit.
I maintain that someone knowing you well enough to know what choices you will make does not restrict your freedom to make them.
And all you have done to the ant is limit their environment, they are still free to behave and move within that environment as they see fit.
I cannot teleport or fly but that is not a restriction on my free will, merely a limitation of the physical universe I live in.

If you read a book then you have no control over what happens next, if you write a book then you do.

PS: Nice to be taking to a grown-up!

Sure I agree with that. We may just have different definitions of what free will is. I do not define it to be freedom of some choices, but freedom of all possible choices. I cannot teleport but that is not possible - so it does not restrict my free will.

And it’s not just that god knows what I will do - its really that he decided what I will do. Since he knows everything, it is not possible for him to create a universe with ignorance of outcome. Hence in creating it, he fixed our choices. So I never had free will - I just play out the choices that were decided by him.

As for overthinking, you got me there. This is what physicists do :)

Also, and interesting aside: modern neuroscience research has found that the parts of our brain associated with making decisions activate prior to the parts of our brain responsible for contemplating what decision to make. So it may be true that we actually decide what to do before we are aware of it - and our rational process simply operates to justify it. In doing so, we believe that the order is the other way and our decision comes as a result of the cognition.

But if this research is true, then free will is destroyed by a purely physical argument. We don’t intentionally choose anything, our choice is already made before we think about it.
The fact.that it's an old equation without good.demonstration of the underlying mechamism behind it makes.it more invalid, not more valid!

- Tom Bishop

We try to represent FET in a model-agnostic way

- Pete Svarrior

Re: Who created god?
« Reply #59 on: May 01, 2019, 05:41:22 AM »

Also, and interesting aside: modern neuroscience research has found that the parts of our brain associated with making decisions activate prior to the parts of our brain responsible for contemplating what decision to make. So it may be true that we actually decide what to do before we are aware of it - and our rational process simply operates to justify it. In doing so, we believe that the order is the other way and our decision comes as a result of the cognition.

But if this research is true, then free will is destroyed by a purely physical argument. We don’t intentionally choose anything, our choice is already made before we think about it.

Not necessarily.  We have instinct and a first reaction.  If we prick our finger, we jerk back in pain without thinking.  If we suddenly see something scary, instinct will tell us to be afraid until our brains can process what it is and if we should fear it.  Its all to keep us alive.  To make our decision process in survival situations faster, if incomplete.  Free will can still change what we do and you can relearn instinct.