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Other Discussion Boards => Philosophy, Religion & Society => Topic started by: Dad on October 03, 2018, 07:50:52 PM

Title: Who created god?
Post by: Dad on October 03, 2018, 07:50:52 PM
some people say god created everything, such as life, the earth, and every living creature. but who created him? did he create himself? what do you fine intellectuals think?
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: disputeone on October 04, 2018, 01:57:46 AM
Where is the beginning of this shape?

(https://i.postimg.cc/DzyRwMXK/1024px-_Circle_-_black_simple.svg.png)
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: Lord Dave on October 04, 2018, 01:31:14 PM
God was created by man to explain how things came to be.
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: Dad on October 04, 2018, 02:43:38 PM
@Lord Dave but if nothing existed before god where did man come from?
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: Rushy on October 04, 2018, 02:47:19 PM
The universe has always existed and it always will. It has no beginning or end.
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: Lord Dave on October 04, 2018, 03:01:31 PM
@Lord Dave but if nothing existed before god where did man come from?
Who said nothing existed before God?The Earth existed well before humans made God.
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: timterroo on October 05, 2018, 05:39:19 PM
The universe has always existed and it always will. It has no beginning or end.

This is a philosophical debate. Describing something as having no beginning and no end is a concept that 3-dimensional perspective cannot really understand. I think this is why it is so hard for us (people) to imagine a universe with no beginning and no end. It doesn't work on a Cartesian plane. You cannot 'picture' a 3-dimensional object in this way because there is always a beginning and an end to our perspective. Higher dimensions would better describe an infinite system. Unfortunately, our concept of reality doesn't include any dimensions higher than 3rd. That is why this debate of god, the universe, and infinite existence will always be that, a debate.

I prefer to think of it like this:

Without a shadow of doubt, I know that I am here, now. I can't say that I remember when "I" came into existence, but I do know that "I" exist - at least to me, that is true. This perspective is what makes each and every conscious being a narcissist - unavoidable narcissism.

NOTE: The modern definition of narcissism has become something of an evil. Traditionally, however, narcissism simply means a love of oneself.
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: Chicken Fried Clucker on October 14, 2018, 03:09:42 AM
some people say god created everything, such as life, the earth, and every living creature. but who created him? did he create himself? what do you fine intellectuals think?

As a few have said, there is no beginning or end. God does not follow the laws of time, God is outside of time. We can't understand that because we are stuck in this 3D existence...truth and real answers are way way out of our pay grade.

I like string theory as a way to understand it a bit.
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: nickrulercreator on October 15, 2018, 09:42:06 PM
Mankind did. Simple.
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: toolmaker on December 02, 2018, 12:50:48 PM
Hi all! The question to ask is: HOW DO I KNOW?

How do I know anything? All I seem to know is memory, and that is all stuff put in there by what I have heard, read, seen etc. But how do I know? There appears to be a piece of me that does not know, and I do not like it. It is scary eh? This is the part we all try to fill with knowing! This is the life quest, to fill this hole of not knowing. But then again, "HOW DO I KNOW?"

Yours (always) in distress

toolmaker
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: J-Man on December 02, 2018, 04:02:04 PM
Hi all! The question to ask is: HOW DO I KNOW?

How do I know anything? All I seem to know is memory, and that is all stuff put in there by what I have heard, read, seen etc. But how do I know? There appears to be a piece of me that does not know, and I do not like it. It is scary eh? This is the part we all try to fill with knowing! This is the life quest, to fill this hole of not knowing. But then again, "HOW DO I KNOW?"

Yours (always) in distress

toolmaker

Many people don't know because they've let too much dark in their lives. We are born pure and have unlimited knowledge abilities. We don't need to know when to breathe, it just happens, we don't need to know when we help the little old lady across the street, we feel good, we don't need to know that murdering a fellow human is bad. These things like the origin of God don't put me in distress, no no, more like joy.

 
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: J-Man on December 02, 2018, 04:19:11 PM
some people say god created everything, such as life, the earth, and every living creature. but who created him? did he create himself? what do you fine intellectuals think?

God explains he is the beginning and the end. No one here knows when their spark of life was created, it's our beginning with no end, we exist for eternity just like God. Where's your crib?

Do you grow spiritually or dwell on human nonsense? Pick up a sword and slash some demons.......
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: Lord Dave on December 02, 2018, 05:02:53 PM
Many people don't know because they've let too much dark in their lives. We are born pure and have unlimited knowledge abilities. We don't need to know when to breathe, it just happens,
Yes, the Medulla does that.  Also regulates heartrate. 

Quote
we don't need to know when we help the little old lady across the street, we feel good,
Not everyone feels good.  We are not born with this as it a social and emathetic feeling more than intrinsic.
Quote
we don't need to know that murdering a fellow human is bad.
Ya, we do.  We call them laws.  Also empathy but before we understand death, murder is just sleeping.
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: Spingo on December 10, 2018, 10:34:04 PM
The universe has always existed and it always will. It has no beginning or end.

Only in your opinion, as you have no definitive proof of either.
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: Spingo on December 10, 2018, 10:46:11 PM
some people say god created everything, such as life, the earth, and every living creature. but who created him? did he create himself? what do you fine intellectuals think?

Which god are you reffering to?

Since the dawn of time the estimate of the number of God’s created or believed in by man is around 2500 or there about, take your pick.

As to who created god, some would say it’s purely a human construct. The world and the cosmos at large appeared to get on quite happily before we humans came along, invented all these gods, and made up all the stories to go along with them. For most of the age of the universe the gods that most people believe in at the present time didn’t exist,  so obviously they had no hand in the creation of the universe, as it was here before the idea of them was.

Gods...who needs them?
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: Deathpacitoast on December 12, 2018, 01:52:19 AM
a common argument used by christian creationist is that for intelligent design to occur, there must be an intelligent designer. i mean how plausible is it that every single dna strand in my body is perfectly spaced and perfectly in a row.
Thats what many of them think.

"Is chaos able to turn into order?"
Many christian creationists think that idea is impossible:
for order, there must be an orderer, and for every building there is a builder.
however i find that ideology quite hypocritical when you actually think about it. god would also have a creator would he not? and that creator would therefor also have a creator. in an endless cycle that will never end.
If by any chance. god does not have a creator. They have just contradicted themselves.

thats just my personal opinion though. take it with a grain of salt.
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: It’s round on December 12, 2018, 02:45:17 PM
He never existed, I’m an atheist.
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: Max_Almond on December 12, 2018, 02:50:08 PM
Some people say god created everything, such as life, the earth, and every living creature. but who created him? did he create himself? what do you fine intellectuals think?

Why would you ask a question like this on the internet? Do you expect someone here to actually know the answer?

If you really want to know - go into the wilderness for thirty days and thirty nights, staying in one spot, and abstaining from distraction. That is, no reading, no writing, no cooking, no fires, no cell phone, etc, etc. Then ask your question with all your heart and all your mind and see what happens.
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: Lord Dave on December 12, 2018, 03:42:21 PM
Some people say god created everything, such as life, the earth, and every living creature. but who created him? did he create himself? what do you fine intellectuals think?

Why would you ask a question like this on the internet? Do you expect someone here to actually know the answer?

If you really want to know - go into the wilderness for thirty days and thirty nights, staying in one spot, and abstaining from distraction. That is, no reading, no writing, no cooking, no fires, no cell phone, etc, etc. Then ask your question with all your heart and all your mind and see what happens.
Considering that you need water and food, that seems like it's doomed to fail.  I mean, you can only bring so much food and water with you.  And what about bathroom breaks?  Should you dig a hole first and sit on that for a month? 
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: Cain on December 12, 2018, 06:17:28 PM
Some people say god created everything, such as life, the earth, and every living creature. but who created him? did he create himself? what do you fine intellectuals think?

Why would you ask a question like this on the internet? Do you expect someone here to actually know the answer?

If you really want to know - go into the wilderness for thirty days and thirty nights, staying in one spot, and abstaining from distraction. That is, no reading, no writing, no cooking, no fires, no cell phone, etc, etc. Then ask your question with all your heart and all your mind and see what happens.
Considering that you need water and food, that seems like it's doomed to fail.  I mean, you can only bring so much food and water with you.  And what about bathroom breaks?  Should you dig a hole first and sit on that for a month?
Maybe that's the point. There is no god, and we're all doomed to die.
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: Max_Almond on December 12, 2018, 08:03:51 PM
Some people say god created everything, such as life, the earth, and every living creature. but who created him? did he create himself? what do you fine intellectuals think?

Why would you ask a question like this on the internet? Do you expect someone here to actually know the answer?

If you really want to know - go into the wilderness for thirty days and thirty nights, staying in one spot, and abstaining from distraction. That is, no reading, no writing, no cooking, no fires, no cell phone, etc, etc. Then ask your question with all your heart and all your mind and see what happens.
Considering that you need water and food, that seems like it's doomed to fail.  I mean, you can only bring so much food and water with you.  And what about bathroom breaks?  Should you dig a hole first and sit on that for a month?

You can have water and food, just food you don't have to cook.

Also, to clarify, by "one spot" I mean, for example, a circle thirty feet wide.

You can leave the circle to take a dump, that doesn't make any difference. :)
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: BillO on December 14, 2018, 12:07:01 AM
Some people say god created everything, such as life, the earth, and every living creature. but who created him? did he create himself? what do you fine intellectuals think?

Why would you ask a question like this on the internet? Do you expect someone here to actually know the answer?

If you really want to know - go into the wilderness for thirty days and thirty nights, staying in one spot, and abstaining from distraction. That is, no reading, no writing, no cooking, no fires, no cell phone, etc, etc. Then ask your question with all your heart and all your mind and see what happens.
Considering that you need water and food, that seems like it's doomed to fail.  I mean, you can only bring so much food and water with you.  And what about bathroom breaks?  Should you dig a hole first and sit on that for a month?

You can have water and food, just food you don't have to cook.

Also, to clarify, by "one spot" I mean, for example, a circle thirty feet wide.

You can leave the circle to take a dump, that doesn't make any difference. :)

Okay, say I don't have a spare month to spend wiping my butt with poison oak - what are you getting at here?  Would you mind cutting to the chase for argument's sake?
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: Max_Almond on December 14, 2018, 07:46:52 AM
But the answer was for Dad and Lord Dave, not you.

Clearly not for you, given your last response. :)
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: spanner34.5 on December 14, 2018, 08:42:28 AM
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=77962.0
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: timterroo on December 19, 2018, 09:58:21 PM
But the answer was for Dad and Lord Dave, not you.

Clearly not for you, given your last response. :)

I've had a similar enlightenment, and I realized that to say there is a god, is to assume God is something comprehendible. God is not comprehendible, at least not by our 3-dimensional perspective.

What I realized is that God is all. When God says "I am that I am", it means God just is. No further definition needed. God isn't a puppeteer in outer space controlling the universe. God IS the universe. God is us. God is everything. God is nothing.
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: Max_Almond on December 20, 2018, 05:39:44 AM
I was with you until you said "God is nothing" immediately after a list of things "God is".

Was that one just waxing lyrical? ;)
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: timterroo on December 20, 2018, 01:17:36 PM
I was with you until you said "God is nothing" immediately after a list of things "God is".

Was that one just waxing lyrical? ;)

'Nothing' is still 'something'

The absence of anything is still a thing. Everything is not complete without nothing.
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: Max_Almond on December 20, 2018, 02:44:16 PM
I'll give you that. :)

I've had a similar enlightenment, and I realized that to say there is a god, is to assume God is something comprehendible. God is not comprehendible, at least not by our 3-dimensional perspective.

Nice, aren't they? Those experiences. :)

An analogy I like to use is that of a computer and a calculator. Calculators are great machines - but they're not much good for watching youtube on: it's outside their capacity and ability.

Likewise, the finite human mind, incredible though it is, can hardly be expected to 'compute' the infinite.

But it can get a 'taste'. :)
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: Rama Set on December 20, 2018, 03:02:58 PM
Speaking of the limited human mind, it seems odd to assume multiple hidden dimensions.  All that is required to literally blow our mind is to be able to move freely through our single time dimension.  I know it feels good to feel like you are tapping in to a deeper mystery in the universe, but the extra dimension stuff is way too much like Deepak Chopra who uses pseudo-scientific talk to sound "deep". 
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: timterroo on December 20, 2018, 05:56:27 PM
Speaking of the limited human mind, it seems odd to assume multiple hidden dimensions.  All that is required to literally blow our mind is to be able to move freely through our single time dimension.  I know it feels good to feel like you are tapping in to a deeper mystery in the universe, but the extra dimension stuff is way too much like Deepak Chopra who uses pseudo-scientific talk to sound "deep".

If you have ever lost 'yourself', your consciousness, while still being awake, you can "get a taste" of a dimension outside our perception. It's not really explainable by science, and it's not a psuedo-science. There are forces out there that are not knowable with our senses and mind. I know it sounds superstitious or crazy, but until you have had an "out-of-body" experience, I'm not so sure you have a leg to stand on.
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: Max_Almond on December 20, 2018, 06:10:07 PM
Yup. :)
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: Cain on December 20, 2018, 06:23:05 PM
I know it sounds superstitious or crazy
That is exactly what it sounds like. More specifically, it sounds like someone's mind looking for excuses that'll make it feel better in response to an unexplained event.
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: timterroo on December 20, 2018, 06:30:18 PM
I know it sounds superstitious or crazy
That is exactly what it sounds like. More specifically, it sounds like someone's mind looking for excuses that'll make it feel better in response to an unexplained event.

So when I say it is "not really explainable", you interpret that as an excuse to explain something un-explainable? This, my friend, is circular reasoning.

And trust me, 6 years after the 'event', my mind still doesn't "feel better" about it.


P.S. - Please, PLEASE, don't assume that I am some kind of bible-thumping, religious, evangelical.... I most certainly am not! Although I have respect for those who are... unless you are a west burrow baptist... then we got beef!
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: Max_Almond on December 20, 2018, 06:51:10 PM
Lolz. I know what you mean.

And it's perhaps an even more fruitless argument than the flat earth one.

I used to define an atheist as someone who had never experienced God and who was convinced no one else could either.

It's kind of illogical when phrased like that, but I also understand it, having been there.

When you haven't had it, there's nothing can convince you it exists. And when you have, there's nothing can convince you that it doesn't.
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: Rama Set on December 20, 2018, 10:32:11 PM
Speaking of the limited human mind, it seems odd to assume multiple hidden dimensions.  All that is required to literally blow our mind is to be able to move freely through our single time dimension.  I know it feels good to feel like you are tapping in to a deeper mystery in the universe, but the extra dimension stuff is way too much like Deepak Chopra who uses pseudo-scientific talk to sound "deep".

If you have ever lost 'yourself', your consciousness, while still being awake, you can "get a taste" of a dimension outside our perception. It's not really explainable by science, and it's not a psuedo-science. There are forces out there that are not knowable with our senses and mind. I know it sounds superstitious or crazy, but until you have had an "out-of-body" experience, I'm not so sure you have a leg to stand on.

I’ve had full psychedelic experiences sober and with the aid of hallucinogenic drugs. But none of that means that alternate realities or extra dimensions exist unless you happen to think that humans have perfect cognition in regards to their sensory perception. What you are saying is absolutely pseudoscience as you are trying to make something with no substantiation sound credible by using scientific terms. Don’t get me wrong, I think that anything that diminishes your sense of self-importance or gives you intuitive glimpses in to other perceptions is extremely powerful and profound. I just wouldn’t make the mistake of calling it anything concrete.
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: Max_Almond on December 20, 2018, 10:48:35 PM
I want to agree with that also. Apart from one bit: you calling it "absolute pseudoscience" is you making it "concrete"; is you presuming to understand his experience; is you thinking you know what it means.

Pseudoscience is something which claims to be scientific but isn't. I'm pretty sure that's not what's happening here.

That'd be like you saying you loved potato chips and someone telling you you can't be sure what love is and, anyway, that's "absolute pseudoscience" right there.

Man just wanna eat some crisps, ferchrissakes! ;)

Still, the essence is fair enough, as a general guide: let's not get carried away with these marvellous experiences, even though they're about the best thing in the entire world - we don't want any Messiah complexes or delusions of grandeur.

And there's no sense that that's what he's doing either.
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: timterroo on December 20, 2018, 11:47:05 PM
I’ve had full psychedelic experiences sober and with the aid of hallucinogenic drugs. But none of that means that alternate realities or extra dimensions exist unless you happen to think that humans have perfect cognition in regards to their sensory perception. What you are saying is absolutely pseudoscience as you are trying to make something with no substantiation sound credible by using scientific terms. Don’t get me wrong, I think that anything that diminishes your sense of self-importance or gives you intuitive glimpses in to other perceptions is extremely powerful and profound. I just wouldn’t make the mistake of calling it anything concrete.

I'm not claiming that alternate realities exist like in the TV series "Sliders" (which is an awesome show, btw!), but as far as dimensions go, it has been theorized by the scientific community that other dimensions do, in fact, exist - this is not pseudo-science. It is scientific theory until proven wrong. However, this is also not what I am talking about. I didn't blast off into an alternate reality or an alternate dimension. I don't know where I was, consciously. I know that time did not exist. I am pretty sure that "I" did not exist. I know that I did not physically change or teleport to some other reality. It was an experience in my brain. Much like a chemically induced coma. Your physical presence remains, but your conscious existence dies. My conscious existence died and was replaced by something unexplainable - at least in that moment. I'm not sure if that happens for coma patients, but if it did, what a trip that would be. Instead of experiencing myself, I seemed to be experiencing everything else. No body. No time. Nothing but a universe. What a trip!
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: Max_Almond on December 20, 2018, 11:59:08 PM
Did it change your life? Are you happier or more peaceful or a nicer person because of it?
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: timterroo on December 21, 2018, 12:46:56 AM
Did it change your life? Are you happier or more peaceful or a nicer person because of it?

I have no flipping clue! I like to think I am a better person because of it. I reconsiled with my girlfriend (with whom I had my first child) and later married her. I think the biggest change is that I can imagine a world without .... "Me". Like I said, my ego died, and without that I find many other reasons to live. Kinship included. Life is the most precious gift we have, however the hell we came to have it.
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: Rama Set on December 21, 2018, 01:00:53 AM
I’ve had full psychedelic experiences sober and with the aid of hallucinogenic drugs. But none of that means that alternate realities or extra dimensions exist unless you happen to think that humans have perfect cognition in regards to their sensory perception. What you are saying is absolutely pseudoscience as you are trying to make something with no substantiation sound credible by using scientific terms. Don’t get me wrong, I think that anything that diminishes your sense of self-importance or gives you intuitive glimpses in to other perceptions is extremely powerful and profound. I just wouldn’t make the mistake of calling it anything concrete.

I'm not claiming that alternate realities exist like in the TV series "Sliders" (which is an awesome show, btw!), but as far as dimensions go, it has been theorized by the scientific community that other dimensions do, in fact, exist - this is not pseudo-science.

There are no scientific theories that contain alternate dimensions. String “Theory” has them, but that is a hypothesis that has never made a single testable predictions.

Quote
It is scientific theory until proven wrong.

No.

Quote
However, this is also not what I am talking about. I didn't blast off into an alternate reality or an alternate dimension. I don't know where I was, consciously. I know that time did not exist. I am pretty sure that "I" did not exist. I know that I did not physically change or teleport to some other reality. It was an experience in my brain. Much like a chemically induced coma. Your physical presence remains, but your conscious existence dies. My conscious existence died and was replaced by something unexplainable - at least in that moment. I'm not sure if that happens for coma patients, but if it did, what a trip that would be. Instead of experiencing myself, I seemed to be experiencing everything else. No body. No time. Nothing but a universe. What a trip!

Sounds like an amazing experience. I have had the feeling of time falling away and perceiving the totality of reality. It’s a profound experience.
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: timterroo on December 21, 2018, 01:57:23 AM
Sounds like an amazing experience. I have had the feeling of time falling away and perceiving the totality of reality. It’s a profound experience.

Do you think it is a coincidence that when our consciousness is thwarted, or removed entirely, that we generally experience a 'connectedness' with the universe? I don't think it is a coincidence at all. I think we are actually connected to the universe in the way we perceive it during those moments of hypnotic or psychedelic trance. We are just incapable of experiencing those things during normal conscious operation because our brains are so very well adapt to perceiving reality as most of us do. In fact, some would say that our conscious reality as we know it is merely a controlled hallucination in itself. Our brains are wired to receive (and perceive) a plethora of experiences, but our normal brain chemistry keeps things pretty well contained.
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: Rama Set on December 21, 2018, 02:45:06 AM
We certainly feel more connected to our world when we diminish our egos and pay attention to our surroundings. To me, whether or not that is an inherent property of consciousness is irrelevant. The experience and the wisdom it teaches is what matters.
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: Max_Almond on December 21, 2018, 06:32:44 AM
Well said you guys. Nice to see people getting along. :)
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: Boodidlie on April 26, 2019, 01:55:08 AM
Who created God ???? .....
God is an eternal being .. God has no beginning and no end ...
God is separate from time .. God CREATED time ...
God sees the beginning and the end all in one glance

.............. more about God here

(http://dadmansabode.com/m/macarthur/185-200.jpg) (http://dadmansabode.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=751#p751)
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: Science Supporter on April 26, 2019, 02:18:12 AM
Who created god?

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." Revelations 22:13
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: QED on April 29, 2019, 02:32:11 PM
We certainly feel more connected to our world when we diminish our egos and pay attention to our surroundings. To me, whether or not that is an inherent property of consciousness is irrelevant. The experience and the wisdom it teaches is what matters.

Few questions.

1. The question of ego. I’ve heard it said that atheists are rather egotistical to not believe in a god. But I have a hard time with this. It isn’t that I believe positive evidence exists which proves gods don’t exist, I just have no found compelling evidence which proves they do.

What is more egotistical?

A) claiming knowledge of an infinite being, infinitely beyond our capabilities in every manner, and who is responsible for everything — this claiming knowledge of the most powerful being possible

B) Being uncertain that mere humans are able to understand or evaluate an infinite being, and thus recognizing that evidence for one would be beyond our ability to understand.

It seems that atheists are more humble.

2. The question of wisdom.

It strikes me as wise to proportion beliefs with evidence. If I believe something which has no evidence, then I am more likely to draw incorrect conclusions, and more likely to believe other claims on poor evidence. This seem unwise, no?
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on April 30, 2019, 09:06:12 AM
It isn’t that I believe positive evidence exists which proves gods don’t exist
Out of interest, what is that evidence?

Quote
I just have no found compelling evidence which proves they do.

I don't know what evidence you'd expect to find, apart from personal experience which is highly subjective.
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: QED on April 30, 2019, 12:06:16 PM
It isn’t that I believe positive evidence exists which proves gods don’t exist
Out of interest, what is that evidence?

Quote
I just have no found compelling evidence which proves they do.

I don't know what evidence you'd expect to find, apart from personal experience which is highly subjective.

I am not convinced that evidence is even possible. How would I distinguish between evidence for a highly advanced being and a god?

I do not know how supernatural evidence can even be examined.

I believe arguments exist which demonstrate particular gods likely don’t exist. For example, I can take the Christian god, who is:

1. All knowing
2. All powerful
3. All loving

(a) the fact that evil exists means only 2 of the above 3 can be operative.

(b) it is not possible for there to be free will if all 3 are correct - and free will is a tenet of Christianity. Proof:

God can create any universe he wants, and every universe is possible for him to make. He also knows everything that will happen beforehand in any universe he may create.

He created this universe - where you are reading this right now. Plus, he KNEW this would happen before he made it. He knew every action you would ever take, and specifically chose to make the particular universe where you would make them - rather than another where you would choose differently.

There is no free will there. Everything was pre-ordained and chosen.

Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on April 30, 2019, 12:29:05 PM
Sorry, dude. I misread your message. I thought you said
"I believe positive evidence exists which proves gods don’t exist" and missed out the "it isn't that"!

I disagree with your analysis. I can believe in an all powerful God who still allows me to rebel against him. Could he stop me? Sure. But then I'd be a robot with no choice other than to obey him. A relationship where one party has no choice in the matter is meaningless. That's why I believe God gave us free will. And we do have free will.

People who know me know that I'm a Beatles nut.
So if I had a choice to go and see, say, The Spice Girls or Paul McCartney then for me it's McCartney all the way. Now, whatever people think about my musical taste, people who know me would know what decision I would make. Their knowledge of me doesn't remove my free choice in the matter. Now, they might be wrong in their prediction but if God knows us perfectly then he will never be wrong. But that doesn't mean that we didn't have a free choice.

There's a difference between a magician who uses a "force" so they know the card you're going to pick - you never really had a free choice in the first place, they made you chose that card - and someone who has memorised the order of the cards so you have a genuinely free choice, they just happen to know that the 23rd card is the three of clubs. It is their knowledge which allowed them to discern your choice, not because they made you.
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: WellRoundedIndividual on April 30, 2019, 01:56:46 PM
You should research the Kalam Argument and the Argument from Contingency. There have been hundreds of philosophers who have debated this very topic. Much more in depth than what is being discussed here.

Basically, the Kalam argument pairs with the Argument from Contingency, in that the Kalam argument states that the universe cannot just have always existed. This would imply an infinitely old universe, which is logically impossible because the first premise which should be logically accepted by all sane people states that all things have a cause. Therefore if all things have a cause there are steps to which that cause happened. In an infinitely old universe, each step is infinite and can never be reached. So, the universe is not infinitely old. Now with the contingency argument, if something exists, there must exist something outside of the other thing that allowed the other thing to exist. The universe exists (space and time), therefore there must be something that exists outside of space and time that allowed the universe to exist.
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: QED on April 30, 2019, 03:22:48 PM
Sorry, dude. I misread your message. I thought you said
"I believe positive evidence exists which proves gods don’t exist" and missed out the "it isn't that"!

I disagree with your analysis. I can believe in an all powerful God who still allows me to rebel against him. Could he stop me? Sure. But then I'd be a robot with no choice other than to obey him. A relationship where one party has no choice in the matter is meaningless. That's why I believe God gave us free will. And we do have free will.

People who know me know that I'm a Beatles nut.
So if I had a choice to go and see, say, The Spice Girls or Paul McCartney then for me it's McCartney all the way. Now, whatever people think about my musical taste, people who know me would know what decision I would make. Their knowledge of me doesn't remove my free choice in the matter. Now, they might be wrong in their prediction but if God knows us perfectly then he will never be wrong. But that doesn't mean that we didn't have a free choice.

There's a difference between a magician who uses a "force" so they know the card you're going to pick - you never really had a free choice in the first place, they made you chose that card - and someone who has memorised the order of the cards so you have a genuinely free choice, they just happen to know that the 23rd card is the three of clubs. It is their knowledge which allowed them to discern your choice, not because they made you.

No problem.

This is good - we have an actual debate here over free will. My rebuttal for you:

Ignorance of what choice we can/will make is not free will.

I place an ant in a big box - so big that it never happens to find the boundary before it dies. It lives it’s whole life believing it has free will, but it does not. I cannot leave the box. Hence, ignorance of lack of choice is not free will.

God could have created a universe where I was Jewish, or a woman, or a psycho. All possibilities exist. He intentionally created the world where the next “random” word I write is: bumblefuck, instead of topaz. And he knew this. And he made it so.

Whether I know it or not is irrelevant. Where is free will here? Every single decision I will ever make was known and chosen to be beforehand. If I have free will, then logically gos cannot be all 3 properties I mentioned earlier.
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on April 30, 2019, 03:31:47 PM
I think you're over-thinking it a bit.
I maintain that someone knowing you well enough to know what choices you will make does not restrict your freedom to make them.
And all you have done to the ant is limit their environment, they are still free to behave and move within that environment as they see fit.
I cannot teleport or fly but that is not a restriction on my free will, merely a limitation of the physical universe I live in.

If you read a book then you have no control over what happens next, if you write a book then you do.

PS: Nice to be taking to a grown-up!
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: WellRoundedIndividual on April 30, 2019, 03:40:02 PM
Free will is a separate discussion from the existence of God. It is a misunderstanding of the concept of God. God exists outside of time and space - see previous comment. We exist in time. God does not "foresee." He sees all at the same time, because he exists outside of time.

Your argument against free will suffers from the Modal fallacy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_fallacy
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: Rama Set on April 30, 2019, 05:28:44 PM
You should research the Kalam Argument and the Argument from Contingency. There have been hundreds of philosophers who have debated this very topic. Much more in depth than what is being discussed here.

Basically, the Kalam argument pairs with the Argument from Contingency, in that the Kalam argument states that the universe cannot just have always existed. This would imply an infinitely old universe, which is logically impossible because the first premise which should be logically accepted by all sane people states that all things have a cause. Therefore if all things have a cause there are steps to which that cause happened. In an infinitely old universe, each step is infinite and can never be reached. So, the universe is not infinitely old. Now with the contingency argument, if something exists, there must exist something outside of the other thing that allowed the other thing to exist. The universe exists (space and time), therefore there must be something that exists outside of space and time that allowed the universe to exist.

The kalam argument is flawed in assuming that the first premise is true*.  Causation may not apply to things like universes, only their contents.  I have seen physicists talk about models that plausibly posit an eternal universe.  I am not saying that is the truth, but premise 1 of kalam is by no means a given.  The other flaw with kalam is that it does not address the infinite regress of who created the creator.  I've heard William Lane Craig describe why this shouldn't apply to god, but it smacks of special pleading.

QED posted a really interesting debate between Craig and Sean Carroll where these issues are addressed.

*I believe the first premise actually reads, 'Everything that begins to exist must have a cause'. At least that is the form Craig uses.

 
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: WellRoundedIndividual on April 30, 2019, 06:35:54 PM
I agree that there are some possible and plausible posited theories that argue against the truth of the first statement. But there has been no physical manifestation, as we know it, that has refuted this statement (falsified). Some argue that on the quantum level, that the first premise is falsified - but I side with Craig in stating that even virtual particles are coming from something.

But back to the logical side of it. If you look at the statement that if things have always existed - then they must have existed infinitely. How can you distinguish one point in infinity from another point infinity? It would take you an infinite amount of time to get from Infinite point B to Infinite point C (fuck point A, lol). So therefore, logically, the universe has not always existed, and therefore something outside the bounds of time and space must have created the universe (space and time). And therefore there must exist something that lives outside of time and space - whatever label you want to put on it.
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: Rama Set on April 30, 2019, 06:49:55 PM
I agree that there are some possible and plausible posited theories that argue against the truth of the first statement. But there has been no physical manifestation, as we know it, that has refuted this statement (falsified). Some argue that on the quantum level, that the first premise is falsified - but I side with Craig in stating that even virtual particles are coming from something.

Why would you agree with a professional apologist on a matter well outside his area of expertise?

Quote
But back to the logical side of it. If you look at the statement that if things have always existed - then they must have existed infinitely. How can you distinguish one point in infinity from another point infinity? It would take you an infinite amount of time to get from Infinite point B to Infinite point C (fuck point A, lol). So therefore, logically, the universe has not always existed, and therefore something outside the bounds of time and space must have created the universe (space and time). And therefore there must exist something that lives outside of time and space - whatever label you want to put on it.

What does being able to distinguish points in space or time have to do with them existing?  Cosmologists also posit that the time dimension itself need to not have existed eternally.
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: WellRoundedIndividual on April 30, 2019, 07:03:41 PM
Why do you disagree or agree with something that is obviously outside of both of our area's of expertise? Who gives a shit? We are merely discussing theological theories using logical progressions of thought experiments.
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: Rama Set on April 30, 2019, 08:37:51 PM
Why do you disagree or agree with something that is obviously outside of both of our area's of expertise? Who gives a shit? We are merely discussing theological theories using logical progressions of thought experiments.

Right.  Ok!  Have a good time playing by yourself!
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: QED on May 01, 2019, 03:55:34 AM
I think you're over-thinking it a bit.
I maintain that someone knowing you well enough to know what choices you will make does not restrict your freedom to make them.
And all you have done to the ant is limit their environment, they are still free to behave and move within that environment as they see fit.
I cannot teleport or fly but that is not a restriction on my free will, merely a limitation of the physical universe I live in.

If you read a book then you have no control over what happens next, if you write a book then you do.

PS: Nice to be taking to a grown-up!

Sure I agree with that. We may just have different definitions of what free will is. I do not define it to be freedom of some choices, but freedom of all possible choices. I cannot teleport but that is not possible - so it does not restrict my free will.

And it’s not just that god knows what I will do - its really that he decided what I will do. Since he knows everything, it is not possible for him to create a universe with ignorance of outcome. Hence in creating it, he fixed our choices. So I never had free will - I just play out the choices that were decided by him.

As for overthinking, you got me there. This is what physicists do :)

Also, and interesting aside: modern neuroscience research has found that the parts of our brain associated with making decisions activate prior to the parts of our brain responsible for contemplating what decision to make. So it may be true that we actually decide what to do before we are aware of it - and our rational process simply operates to justify it. In doing so, we believe that the order is the other way and our decision comes as a result of the cognition.

But if this research is true, then free will is destroyed by a purely physical argument. We don’t intentionally choose anything, our choice is already made before we think about it.
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: Lord Dave on May 01, 2019, 05:41:22 AM

Also, and interesting aside: modern neuroscience research has found that the parts of our brain associated with making decisions activate prior to the parts of our brain responsible for contemplating what decision to make. So it may be true that we actually decide what to do before we are aware of it - and our rational process simply operates to justify it. In doing so, we believe that the order is the other way and our decision comes as a result of the cognition.

But if this research is true, then free will is destroyed by a purely physical argument. We don’t intentionally choose anything, our choice is already made before we think about it.

Not necessarily.  We have instinct and a first reaction.  If we prick our finger, we jerk back in pain without thinking.  If we suddenly see something scary, instinct will tell us to be afraid until our brains can process what it is and if we should fear it.  Its all to keep us alive.  To make our decision process in survival situations faster, if incomplete.  Free will can still change what we do and you can relearn instinct.
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: QED on May 01, 2019, 10:45:39 AM

Also, and interesting aside: modern neuroscience research has found that the parts of our brain associated with making decisions activate prior to the parts of our brain responsible for contemplating what decision to make. So it may be true that we actually decide what to do before we are aware of it - and our rational process simply operates to justify it. In doing so, we believe that the order is the other way and our decision comes as a result of the cognition.

But if this research is true, then free will is destroyed by a purely physical argument. We don’t intentionally choose anything, our choice is already made before we think about it.

Not necessarily.  We have instinct and a first reaction.  If we prick our finger, we jerk back in pain without thinking.  If we suddenly see something scary, instinct will tell us to be afraid until our brains can process what it is and if we should fear it.  Its all to keep us alive.  To make our decision process in survival situations faster, if incomplete.  Free will can still change what we do and you can relearn instinct.

Now those reactions are governed by our “reptilian” brain, and so do not involve rational thought at all. Hence, I would not consider them useful in a discussion about free-will.
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: Snoopy on July 10, 2019, 08:28:52 PM
Firstly: it's 'faith' not 'fact'
If He made his presence known (massive public miracles on Earth, lose all power, dry up the seas, etc) EVERYONE would believe and then we could not judge others. He would not have anyone to judge. We would not need Him, all would know and believe.  The experiment would be over.

Secondly: for the narrative to be closed loop He had to be eternal, no beginning or end, otherwise it begs the question who made Him or will end Him?

Applying logic to faith is as fruitless as trying to apply it to 'love'.
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: timterroo on July 13, 2019, 04:17:32 PM
Been a while since I read this thread. Good to see its still in progress!

I agree with QED that our brains are capable of making a decision before we consciously realize we have a decision to make. If you disagree with this notion, I suggest you read Daniel dennetts "consciousness explained".... The brain is not a serial processor, however our consciousness is.

Take the experience of "Deja vu". Youve experienced something that seems so familiar, it's like it already happened to you, you just can't remember when.... What is happening in the brain here?

It's actually rather simple: your brain has stored information in long term memory before your conscious brain has processed it - this is parallel processing. Thus, when you become conscious of said thing, you quickly compare the experience to the stored information in your brain and since our consciousness is serial, you assume you have already experienced it.

Regarding snoopys comment about God making himself known and then everyone would believe.... That is false as the old testiment shows us. God was all powerful and directly influential in the old testiment yet God did not have everyone believing in him. That is why God ultimately recended from physical interaction and sent his son to save our pathetic selves.

Regarding free will. This is a concept that comes from 3-dimensional perspective. We always move forward in time and we perceive that we can somehow influence this forward motion. However, from a 4-dimensional perspective, there is no time and no beginning or end. Everything is seen all at once: past, present, and future are known all at once. So where is free will? How can you change the future if it is already in the picture?

Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 17, 2019, 02:58:47 PM
However, from a 4-dimensional perspective, there is no time and no beginning or end. Everything is seen all at once: past, present, and future are known all at once. So where is free will? How can you change the future if it is already in the picture?
I never understand this argument.
I've said this before but if I offer you the choice of two activities, one you hate doing and one you really enjoy, you're going to choose the one you enjoy.
If I know your preferences well enough I might know what you're going to choose, but I'm still giving you the same choice.
The only difference is my knowledge, nothing else about your experience of the choice changes. You are free to choose whichever you wish.

Let's say you're watching a sports event live on TV and I am watching it on an internet stream which is delayed from the TV broadcast by a minute.
You know ahead of me what is going to happen but unless you tell me my experience of watching the event is exactly the same as yours.
Your foreknowledge of what I'm about to see in no way changes what I see or how I react to it.
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: timterroo on July 17, 2019, 03:52:50 PM
However, from a 4-dimensional perspective, there is no time and no beginning or end. Everything is seen all at once: past, present, and future are known all at once. So where is free will? How can you change the future if it is already in the picture?
I never understand this argument.
I've said this before but if I offer you the choice of two activities, one you hate doing and one you really enjoy, you're going to choose the one you enjoy.
If I know your preferences well enough I might know what you're going to choose, but I'm still giving you the same choice.
The only difference is my knowledge, nothing else about your experience of the choice changes. You are free to choose whichever you wish.

Let's say you're watching a sports event live on TV and I am watching it on an internet stream which is delayed from the TV broadcast by a minute.
You know ahead of me what is going to happen but unless you tell me my experience of watching the event is exactly the same as yours.
Your foreknowledge of what I'm about to see in no way changes what I see or how I react to it.

The argument, although fun to think about, is flawed in the sense that there is no way to prove any of it. Does the 4th dimension exist? I think it does, but that is my personal belief.

Here is a thought exercise:

Let's say you have two choices, pizza or spaghetti.

At this particular cross-road, you have a decision to make - "what will I eat?"

Suppose I choose pizza (because who wouldn't?!), and now I have gone down the pizza road. The choice was made, however, since I can never go back in time to re-evaluate that choice (at that time), did I really have a choice? Was eating spaghetti (at that junction) ever REALLY a choice? How can you say it was a choice? Regardless how many 'branches' there are on the road, you can ultimately only go down one road. So, philosophically, you will never know if you ACTUALLY had the choice, or if the choice had you.

That is another way to look at it.....

Suppose it is not us who makes the choice, but rather the choice that makes us? Maybe each pathway chooses us, rather than we choosing the pathway? Again, how can you prove or disprove such a thing?
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: Lord Dave on July 17, 2019, 05:09:24 PM
However, from a 4-dimensional perspective, there is no time and no beginning or end. Everything is seen all at once: past, present, and future are known all at once. So where is free will? How can you change the future if it is already in the picture?
I never understand this argument.
I've said this before but if I offer you the choice of two activities, one you hate doing and one you really enjoy, you're going to choose the one you enjoy.
If I know your preferences well enough I might know what you're going to choose, but I'm still giving you the same choice.
The only difference is my knowledge, nothing else about your experience of the choice changes. You are free to choose whichever you wish.

Let's say you're watching a sports event live on TV and I am watching it on an internet stream which is delayed from the TV broadcast by a minute.
You know ahead of me what is going to happen but unless you tell me my experience of watching the event is exactly the same as yours.
Your foreknowledge of what I'm about to see in no way changes what I see or how I react to it.

The argument, although fun to think about, is flawed in the sense that there is no way to prove any of it. Does the 4th dimension exist? I think it does, but that is my personal belief.

Here is a thought exercise:

Let's say you have two choices, pizza or spaghetti.

At this particular cross-road, you have a decision to make - "what will I eat?"

Suppose I choose pizza (because who wouldn't?!), and now I have gone down the pizza road. The choice was made, however, since I can never go back in time to re-evaluate that choice (at that time), did I really have a choice? Was eating spaghetti (at that junction) ever REALLY a choice? How can you say it was a choice? Regardless how many 'branches' there are on the road, you can ultimately only go down one road. So, philosophically, you will never know if you ACTUALLY had the choice, or if the choice had you.

That is another way to look at it.....

Suppose it is not us who makes the choice, but rather the choice that makes us? Maybe each pathway chooses us, rather than we choosing the pathway? Again, how can you prove or disprove such a thing?

The 4th dimension is time.  Time exists.  We know because we have memory.

And while I see the philosophical view, well... You still have a choice.  It may be predictable but its still a choice.
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: timterroo on July 18, 2019, 01:19:48 PM
However, from a 4-dimensional perspective, there is no time and no beginning or end. Everything is seen all at once: past, present, and future are known all at once. So where is free will? How can you change the future if it is already in the picture?
I never understand this argument.
I've said this before but if I offer you the choice of two activities, one you hate doing and one you really enjoy, you're going to choose the one you enjoy.
If I know your preferences well enough I might know what you're going to choose, but I'm still giving you the same choice.
The only difference is my knowledge, nothing else about your experience of the choice changes. You are free to choose whichever you wish.

Let's say you're watching a sports event live on TV and I am watching it on an internet stream which is delayed from the TV broadcast by a minute.
You know ahead of me what is going to happen but unless you tell me my experience of watching the event is exactly the same as yours.
Your foreknowledge of what I'm about to see in no way changes what I see or how I react to it.

The argument, although fun to think about, is flawed in the sense that there is no way to prove any of it. Does the 4th dimension exist? I think it does, but that is my personal belief.

Here is a thought exercise:

Let's say you have two choices, pizza or spaghetti.

At this particular cross-road, you have a decision to make - "what will I eat?"

Suppose I choose pizza (because who wouldn't?!), and now I have gone down the pizza road. The choice was made, however, since I can never go back in time to re-evaluate that choice (at that time), did I really have a choice? Was eating spaghetti (at that junction) ever REALLY a choice? How can you say it was a choice? Regardless how many 'branches' there are on the road, you can ultimately only go down one road. So, philosophically, you will never know if you ACTUALLY had the choice, or if the choice had you.

That is another way to look at it.....

Suppose it is not us who makes the choice, but rather the choice that makes us? Maybe each pathway chooses us, rather than we choosing the pathway? Again, how can you prove or disprove such a thing?

The 4th dimension is time.  Time exists.  We know because we have memory.

And while I see the philosophical view, well... You still have a choice.  It may be predictable but its still a choice.

Correct, time does exist, but it exists to us differently than it would if you were actually in 4th dimension.

Allow me to explain:

Let's say you have a single dot in a fixed plane. This is the 0-dimension. How does a 0-dimensional object describe a 1-dimentional object? In other words, how does a dot describe a line?... As a series of dots.

Now, how does a line describe a square? As a series of lines. How does a square describe a cube? As a series of squares. I think you get the point..... In each case, you have a less descriptive object trying to describe a more descriptive object using its own narrow perspective. Now what about other 3-dimensional objects such as ourselves? How do we describe the 4th dimension? As a series of 3-dimensional objects. We call this time. But just as a 3-dimensional object sees other 3-dimensional objects as 3 dimensions, wouldn't 4th dimensional objects see themselves as 4th dimensional objects, and NOT as time? Imagine what we would look like if we could see ourselves in 4th dimension..... that would just be weird.  So what is 'time' to a 4th dimensional object? Time is nothing more than a way to describe a dimension that is outside of your perspective.
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: Rama Set on July 18, 2019, 02:20:58 PM
The problem with this analogy is that this 4th dimension isn’t a spatial dimension and is perceived differently. It might mostly be a moot point.

I also think memory is a terrible proof that time exists since humans are notoriously good at constructing memories from nothing.
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: timterroo on July 18, 2019, 02:59:26 PM
The problem with this analogy is that this 4th dimension isn’t a spatial dimension and is perceived differently. It might mostly be a moot point.

I also think memory is a terrible proof that time exists since humans are notoriously good at constructing memories from nothing.

The 4th dimension isn't spacial when you exist within the 3rd dimension. Just like a square isn't spacial to a line, and line isn't spacial to a dot, yet we (being in 3rd dimension) know that these objects ARE spacial. The lesser dimension knows nothing about the spacial qualities of the greater dimension. So, are you SURE that the 4th dimension isn't spacial? If so, how can you be sure?

Edit: Another way to look at it might be to take a dot, and iterate it (over time) to a point in the future. That dot has now traversed a line. Take a line and iterate it (over time) to a point in the future, and that line has now traversed a square, and so on...... each dimension when factoring in time, begins to perceive the higher dimension.

Regarding memory as proof of time, I agree, memory is only proof that we can hallucinate. ;)
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: Rama Set on July 18, 2019, 03:05:54 PM
The problem with this analogy is that this 4th dimension isn’t a spatial dimension and is perceived differently. It might mostly be a moot point.

I also think memory is a terrible proof that time exists since humans are notoriously good at constructing memories from nothing.

The 4th dimension isn't spacial when you exist within the 3rd dimension. Just like a square isn't spacial to a line, and line isn't spacial to a dot, yet we (being in 3rd dimension) know that these objects ARE spacial. The lesser dimension knows nothing about the spacial qualities of the greater dimension. So, are you SURE that the 4th dimension isn't spacial? If so, how can you be sure?


Sorry for the curt reply, but it is not spatial because that is how it is defined. If it were spatial, we would no longer be talking about the same thing.
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: timterroo on July 18, 2019, 03:14:15 PM
The problem with this analogy is that this 4th dimension isn’t a spatial dimension and is perceived differently. It might mostly be a moot point.

I also think memory is a terrible proof that time exists since humans are notoriously good at constructing memories from nothing.

The 4th dimension isn't spacial when you exist within the 3rd dimension. Just like a square isn't spacial to a line, and line isn't spacial to a dot, yet we (being in 3rd dimension) know that these objects ARE spacial. The lesser dimension knows nothing about the spacial qualities of the greater dimension. So, are you SURE that the 4th dimension isn't spacial? If so, how can you be sure?


Sorry for the curt reply, but it is not spatial because that is how it is defined. If it were spatial, we would no longer be talking about the same thing.

Hmmm... I don't follow... just because we have defined the 4th dimension as time does not prove or disprove that it isn't also spacial. My whole point is that we perceive it as time because we have no other way to describe it - just like a dot has no other way to describe a line other than iterating itself through time. Just as we do in our 3rd dimension.

Edit: I think I added a bit in my previous post as an edit that you might not have read that helps further explain how time interacts with dimensions....
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: spanner34.5 on July 24, 2019, 08:57:44 AM
A lot of children have an invisible friend, most grow out of it. Some retain their friend, it develops into god.
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: Lord Dave on July 24, 2019, 09:52:33 AM
However, from a 4-dimensional perspective, there is no time and no beginning or end. Everything is seen all at once: past, present, and future are known all at once. So where is free will? How can you change the future if it is already in the picture?
I never understand this argument.
I've said this before but if I offer you the choice of two activities, one you hate doing and one you really enjoy, you're going to choose the one you enjoy.
If I know your preferences well enough I might know what you're going to choose, but I'm still giving you the same choice.
The only difference is my knowledge, nothing else about your experience of the choice changes. You are free to choose whichever you wish.

Let's say you're watching a sports event live on TV and I am watching it on an internet stream which is delayed from the TV broadcast by a minute.
You know ahead of me what is going to happen but unless you tell me my experience of watching the event is exactly the same as yours.
Your foreknowledge of what I'm about to see in no way changes what I see or how I react to it.

The argument, although fun to think about, is flawed in the sense that there is no way to prove any of it. Does the 4th dimension exist? I think it does, but that is my personal belief.

Here is a thought exercise:

Let's say you have two choices, pizza or spaghetti.

At this particular cross-road, you have a decision to make - "what will I eat?"

Suppose I choose pizza (because who wouldn't?!), and now I have gone down the pizza road. The choice was made, however, since I can never go back in time to re-evaluate that choice (at that time), did I really have a choice? Was eating spaghetti (at that junction) ever REALLY a choice? How can you say it was a choice? Regardless how many 'branches' there are on the road, you can ultimately only go down one road. So, philosophically, you will never know if you ACTUALLY had the choice, or if the choice had you.

That is another way to look at it.....

Suppose it is not us who makes the choice, but rather the choice that makes us? Maybe each pathway chooses us, rather than we choosing the pathway? Again, how can you prove or disprove such a thing?

The 4th dimension is time.  Time exists.  We know because we have memory.

And while I see the philosophical view, well... You still have a choice.  It may be predictable but its still a choice.

Correct, time does exist, but it exists to us differently than it would if you were actually in 4th dimension.

Allow me to explain:

Let's say you have a single dot in a fixed plane. This is the 0-dimension. How does a 0-dimensional object describe a 1-dimentional object? In other words, how does a dot describe a line?... As a series of dots.

Now, how does a line describe a square? As a series of lines. How does a square describe a cube? As a series of squares. I think you get the point..... In each case, you have a less descriptive object trying to describe a more descriptive object using its own narrow perspective. Now what about other 3-dimensional objects such as ourselves? How do we describe the 4th dimension? As a series of 3-dimensional objects. We call this time. But just as a 3-dimensional object sees other 3-dimensional objects as 3 dimensions, wouldn't 4th dimensional objects see themselves as 4th dimensional objects, and NOT as time? Imagine what we would look like if we could see ourselves in 4th dimension..... that would just be weird.  So what is 'time' to a 4th dimensional object? Time is nothing more than a way to describe a dimension that is outside of your perspective.

Except each new dimension is built on the previous.
The 0th dimension is a dot.
The 1st is a series of dots to form a line.
The 2nd is series of lines stacked up to form shapes.  (Think an ink jet printer printing to paper)
The 3rd is a series of 2D planes stacked up together infinitely.
The 4th is a series of 3D planes stacked up together infinitely.


The problem with this analogy is that this 4th dimension isn’t a spatial dimension and is perceived differently. It might mostly be a moot point.

I also think memory is a terrible proof that time exists since humans are notoriously good at constructing memories from nothing.

Yes but the fact that we can do anything proves time exists.  Change proves time. 
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: timterroo on July 25, 2019, 10:46:15 PM

Except each new dimension is built on the previous.
The 0th dimension is a dot.
The 1st is a series of dots to form a line.
The 2nd is series of lines stacked up to form shapes.  (Think an ink jet printer printing to paper)
The 3rd is a series of 2D planes stacked up together infinitely.
The 4th is a series of 3D planes stacked up together infinitely.


Here is my quote:

Quote
Let's say you have a single dot in a fixed plane. This is the 0-dimension. How does a 0-dimensional object describe a 1-dimentional object? In other words, how does a dot describe a line?... As a series of dots.

Now, how does a line describe a square? As a series of lines. How does a square describe a cube? As a series of squares. How do we describe the 4th dimension? As a series of 3-dimensional objects. We call this time.

I hope you can see that you are literally saying the exact same thing as I am.
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: Rama Set on July 25, 2019, 11:46:57 PM
Except each new dimension is built on the previous.
The 0th dimension is a dot.
The 1st is a series of dots to form a line.
The 2nd is series of lines stacked up to form shapes.  (Think an ink jet printer printing to paper)
The 3rd is a series of 2D planes stacked up together infinitely.
The 4th is a series of 3D planes stacked up together infinitely.

A 4th spatial dimension would fit this series, but not a temporal dimension.


The problem with this analogy is that this 4th dimension isn’t a spatial dimension and is perceived differently. It might mostly be a moot point.

I also think memory is a terrible proof that time exists since humans are notoriously good at constructing memories from nothing.

Yes but the fact that we can do anything proves time exists.  Change proves time.
[/quote]

Totally agree, but memory has nothing to do with change.
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: timterroo on July 26, 2019, 12:16:18 AM
Except each new dimension is built on the previous.
The 0th dimension is a dot.
The 1st is a series of dots to form a line.
The 2nd is series of lines stacked up to form shapes.  (Think an ink jet printer printing to paper)
The 3rd is a series of 2D planes stacked up together infinitely.
The 4th is a series of 3D planes stacked up together infinitely.

A 4th spatial dimension would fit this series, but not a temporal dimension.




Unless you were a 4-dimensional object trying to describe the 5th dimension. In this case, 4-dimensions can iterate to infinity with respect to time.
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: Rama Set on July 26, 2019, 01:59:41 PM
You were asking earlier if there was difference between temporal and spatial dimensions and from what I’ve been able to find out the difference, from a mathematical perspective is this: any change in spatial coordinates requires a change in a temporal coordinates. A change in temporal coordinates does not require a change in spatial coordinates. I’m not sure it’s extremely relevant at this point in the conversation, but I thought it was interesting.
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: timterroo on July 26, 2019, 03:04:13 PM
You were asking earlier if there was difference between temporal and spatial dimensions and from what I’ve been able to find out the difference, from a mathematical perspective is this: any change in spatial coordinates requires a change in a temporal coordinates. A change in temporal coordinates does not require a change in spatial coordinates. I’m not sure it’s extremely relevant at this point in the conversation, but I thought it was interesting.

Hmmm. I would be interested in reading more about this concept. Is this Newtonian?

I read up a little on Einstein's spacetime theory, and it blows my mind to think about space and time this way - as space and time being a single, in-separable, entity. Seems completely non-intuitive and counters Newton's theories.
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: Rama Set on July 26, 2019, 06:44:09 PM
You were asking earlier if there was difference between temporal and spatial dimensions and from what I’ve been able to find out the difference, from a mathematical perspective is this: any change in spatial coordinates requires a change in a temporal coordinates. A change in temporal coordinates does not require a change in spatial coordinates. I’m not sure it’s extremely relevant at this point in the conversation, but I thought it was interesting.

Hmmm. I would be interested in reading more about this concept. Is this Newtonian?

I read up a little on Einstein's spacetime theory, and it blows my mind to think about space and time this way - as space and time being a single, in-separable, entity. Seems completely non-intuitive and counters Newton's theories.

This is non-Newtonian. Traveling through space-like dimensions without changing temporal coordinates implies infinite velocity which is prohibited according to every physical theory I know of.
Title: Re: Who created god?
Post by: timterroo on July 26, 2019, 06:53:47 PM
You were asking earlier if there was difference between temporal and spatial dimensions and from what I’ve been able to find out the difference, from a mathematical perspective is this: any change in spatial coordinates requires a change in a temporal coordinates. A change in temporal coordinates does not require a change in spatial coordinates. I’m not sure it’s extremely relevant at this point in the conversation, but I thought it was interesting.

Hmmm. I would be interested in reading more about this concept. Is this Newtonian?

I read up a little on Einstein's spacetime theory, and it blows my mind to think about space and time this way - as space and time being a single, in-separable, entity. Seems completely non-intuitive and counters Newton's theories.

This is non-Newtonian. Traveling through space-like dimensions without changing temporal coordinates implies infinite velocity which is prohibited according to every physical theory I know of.

That sounds a bit like warp speed!

Or teleportation...