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Offline Fortuna

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Political Musings
« on: September 19, 2018, 06:17:06 AM »
Seems about right.



I am more authoritarian than libertarian, libertarianism is a meme that relies on everyone holding hands and getting along.

I'm also in favour of government regulations on the free market so I think it placed me fairly.

Red is objectively the worst quadrant.
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Re: Political Musings
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2018, 06:28:52 AM »
Seems about right.



I am more authoritarian than libertarian, libertarianism is a meme that relies on everyone holding hands and getting along.

I'm also in favour of government regulations on the free market so I think it placed me fairly.

Red is objectively the worst quadrant.

Yeah well we've seen what happens in an unrestricted free market and it isn't fairness and prosperity. It's multinational monopolies with more power than elected governments.

We need regulatory oversight to ensure we don't have companies like Google and Amazon ruling over us in lieu of our elected leaders.

Imho the green square is the worst. Not to say we all can't work together to make things better

Re: Political Musings
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2018, 05:36:23 PM »
Top right always ends in war. Think Adolf Hitler.

Top left always ends in starvation. Chairman Mao, Stalin, Venezuela today.

No government wants bottom anything because that means the state giving power back to its people.


So ... of your two choices ... do you want to be a victim and starve to death or do you want to go out fighting? Only a coward would be a liberal.
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Offline Rushy

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Re: Political Musings
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2018, 09:43:46 PM »
Yeah well we've seen what happens in an unrestricted free market and it isn't fairness and prosperity. It's multinational monopolies with more power than elected governments.

We need regulatory oversight to ensure we don't have companies like Google and Amazon ruling over us in lieu of our elected leaders.

Imho the green square is the worst. Not to say we all can't work together to make things better

So, instead of having lots of moderately powerful entities vying for power, you'd rather have one very powerful entity that never has to compete with anyone? You should trust the government far less than you trust Google and Amazon. Google and Amazon just want to use you to make money, the government wants to use you to do anything the government happens to want you to do. Google can't draft you into the army or seize money directly out of your bank account. Google can't tell you to pay the IRS and throw you in jail if you refuse. In a totalitarian government of that red square, you'll dream of rampant corporatism.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Political Musings
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2018, 10:26:26 PM »
Yeah well we've seen what happens in an unrestricted free market and it isn't fairness and prosperity. It's multinational monopolies with more power than elected governments.

We need regulatory oversight to ensure we don't have companies like Google and Amazon ruling over us in lieu of our elected leaders.

Imho the green square is the worst. Not to say we all can't work together to make things better

So, instead of having lots of moderately powerful entities vying for power, you'd rather have one very powerful entity that never has to compete with anyone? You should trust the government far less than you trust Google and Amazon. Google and Amazon just want to use you to make money, the government wants to use you to do anything the government happens to want you to do. Google can't draft you into the army or seize money directly out of your bank account. Google can't tell you to pay the IRS and throw you in jail if you refuse. In a totalitarian government of that red square, you'll dream of rampant corporatism.

What if I think both those ideas are shit? Why is there never anyone who wants to explore an option where neither gonvernment nor corporate interests have too much influence?
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Offline Rushy

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Re: Political Musings
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2018, 10:41:49 PM »
What if I think both those ideas are shit? Why is there never anyone who wants to explore an option where neither gonvernment nor corporate interests have too much influence?

That's called being a libertarian, and if you'd taken a good look at who I was replying to, they're firmly inside that big red square in the top left of the compass, which would mean they're not a libertarian.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2018, 10:43:56 PM by Rushy »

Re: Political Musings
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2018, 11:40:13 PM »
What if I think both those ideas are shit? Why is there never anyone who wants to explore an option where neither gonvernment nor corporate interests have too much influence?

That's called being a libertarian, and if you'd taken a good look at who I was replying to, they're firmly inside that big red square in the top left of the compass, which would mean they're not a libertarian.

He's right you know.

I would rather have one poweful government accountable to its people than (imo) the mess we have now.

Anyone who's been following Aussie politics has seen how many leaders we've gone through and how broken our system is. Many of us have lost faith in our system.

The problem with libertarianism can be expressed like this.

People: Multinational corporation, please stop oppressing our people.

Multinational corporation: No

People: :(
« Last Edit: September 19, 2018, 11:42:07 PM by disputeone »

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Political Musings
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2018, 12:22:33 AM »
He's right you know.

I would rather have one poweful government accountable to its people than (imo) the mess we have now.

Anyone who's been following Aussie politics has seen how many leaders we've gone through and how broken our system is. Many of us have lost faith in our system.

The problem with libertarianism can be expressed like this.

People: Multinational corporation, please stop oppressing our people.

Multinational corporation: No

People: :(

There's no such thing as a government that's accountable to the people. The very idea of government is that it's an organization that exists above people, accountable only to itself. The only way to hold a government official accountable is by trying to get other government officials to oust the person in question. That's quite the opposite of being accountable to the people you rule over.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2018, 12:24:41 AM by Rushy »

Re: Political Musings
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2018, 12:35:30 AM »
He's right you know.

I would rather have one poweful government accountable to its people than (imo) the mess we have now.

Anyone who's been following Aussie politics has seen how many leaders we've gone through and how broken our system is. Many of us have lost faith in our system.

The problem with libertarianism can be expressed like this.

People: Multinational corporation, please stop oppressing our people.

Multinational corporation: No

People: :(

There's no such thing as a government that's accountable to the people. The very idea of government is that it's an organization that exists above people, accountable only to itself. The only way to hold a government official accountable is by trying to get other government officials to oust the person in question. That's quite the opposite of being accountable to the people you rule over.

Well that's the crux of the matter, isn't it, how do you ensure a government serves the people and not the interests of international bankers such as in the war on terror.

I'm not claiming to have the answers, however we deserve better than this.



I think that the ideal of democracy is a government accountable to its people.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Political Musings
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2018, 12:47:50 AM »
Well that's the crux of the matter, isn't it, how do you ensure a government serves the people and not the interests of international bankers such as in the war on terror.

I'm not claiming to have the answers, however we deserve better than this.



I think that the ideal of democracy is a government accountable to its people.

Well, like I just told you, there's no such thing as a government that serves the people. To say "I want a government that is ruled by and accountable to the people" is paradoxical. What you're saying is that you want to be the government and have some subsidiary of society work for you. The paradox of authoritarianism is that the authoritarian always wants to be the one with the authority. If everyone has authority, no one does, and so therefore an authoritarian government cannot exist that relinquishes its authority to its own population.

Re: Political Musings
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2018, 12:58:15 AM »
Well that's the crux of the matter, isn't it, how do you ensure a government serves the people and not the interests of international bankers such as in the war on terror.

I'm not claiming to have the answers, however we deserve better than this.



I think that the ideal of democracy is a government accountable to its people.

Well, like I just told you, there's no such thing as a government that serves the people. To say "I want a government that is ruled by and accountable to the people" is paradoxical. What you're saying is that you want to be the government and have some subsidiary of society work for you. The paradox of authoritarianism is that the authoritarian always wants to be the one with the authority. If everyone has authority, no one does, and so therefore an authoritarian government cannot exist that relinquishes its authority to its own population.

I don't want to rule. I wouldn't mind being ruled over, as long as it was fairly.

I respectfully disgaree I think that an authoritarian state could be run by its own population although there haven't been many good examples. I'd settle for a leader that genuinely cares about their people, which does sound impossible these days. I'm a little busy at work but maybe we could talk more later.

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Offline Fortuna

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Re: Political Musings
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2018, 02:02:23 AM »
Yeah well we've seen what happens in an unrestricted free market and it isn't fairness and prosperity. It's multinational monopolies with more power than elected governments.

We need regulatory oversight to ensure we don't have companies like Google and Amazon ruling over us in lieu of our elected leaders.

Imho the green square is the worst. Not to say we all can't work together to make things better

So, instead of having lots of moderately powerful entities vying for power, you'd rather have one very powerful entity that never has to compete with anyone? You should trust the government far less than you trust Google and Amazon.

The hilarious part is these big evil corporations come to power because they have value in society. People choose to make them powerful by buying things from them. The same idiots that complain about corporations being too powerful probably also order their Communist Manifestos and Che Guevara shirts from Amazon.

Hol up, I’m gonna take this test again. I’m probably purple right now.
I stopped going to the gym because of Trump. Now I can't open jars

Re: Political Musings
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2018, 02:06:06 AM »
Well the first thing that would happen if you removed government is corporations wouldn't exist.

We'd go back to a pre-Adam Smith Era.

Corporations only exist because governments choose to allow them to be immortal entities with rights such as property ownership. If a corporation couldn't legally own something and that wasn't enforced by powerful governments ... there would be no corporations.
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Offline Rushy

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Re: Political Musings
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2018, 02:14:03 AM »
I don't want to rule. I wouldn't mind being ruled over, as long as it was fairly.

And now we arrive to the blissful desire of the benevolent tyrant, an authoritarian ideal.

Re: Political Musings
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2018, 03:46:06 AM »
I don't want to rule. I wouldn't mind being ruled over, as long as it was fairly.

And now we arrive to the blissful desire of the benevolent tyrant, an authoritarian ideal.

Were being ruled over by malicious tyrants currently.

I'll give a good example using Ron Paul and ending the Fed in a few hours when I have time but for now.

I broke my phone screen, the screen costs $10, the guy replacing it will take an hour and is paid approximately $25 an hour.

I was quoted $600 for the phone repair. This is where free market capitalism and libertarianism often leads. With people ripping each other off trying to get ahead.

I don't believe in it.

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Offline Fortuna

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Re: Political Musings
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2018, 05:34:32 AM »
I don't want to rule. I wouldn't mind being ruled over, as long as it was fairly.

And now we arrive to the blissful desire of the benevolent tyrant, an authoritarian ideal.

Were being ruled over by malicious tyrants currently.

I'll give a good example using Ron Paul and ending the Fed in a few hours when I have time but for now.

I broke my phone screen, the screen costs $10, the guy replacing it will take an hour and is paid approximately $25 an hour.

I was quoted $600 for the phone repair. This is where free market capitalism and libertarianism often leads. With people ripping each other off trying to get ahead.

I don't believe in it.

What the hell? What kind of phone do you have? An iPhone 8 Plus screen repair costs 170 USD directly from Apple. Don't blame capitalism on the fact that you're susceptible to getting ripped off. Also, you can't just factor in the wage of the worker and the cost of the screen. Every other cost the business has is factored into the cost of the repair as well.
I stopped going to the gym because of Trump. Now I can't open jars

Re: Political Musings
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2018, 05:55:44 AM »
A galaxy s9+

I'm in australia so it's in meme dollars. Not $USD.

Edit. I'm not paying that, dont be silly; I haven't been ripped off yet. You can get the screen and tools for $50 aud online, I might try it myself.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2018, 05:59:16 AM by disputeone »

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Political Musings
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2018, 11:44:12 AM »
Yeah well we've seen what happens in an unrestricted free market and it isn't fairness and prosperity. It's multinational monopolies with more power than elected governments.

We need regulatory oversight to ensure we don't have companies like Google and Amazon ruling over us in lieu of our elected leaders.

Imho the green square is the worst. Not to say we all can't work together to make things better

So, instead of having lots of moderately powerful entities vying for power, you'd rather have one very powerful entity that never has to compete with anyone? You should trust the government far less than you trust Google and Amazon.

The hilarious part is these big evil corporations come to power because they have value in society. People choose to make them powerful by buying things from them. The same idiots that complain about corporations being too powerful probably also order their Communist Manifestos and Che Guevara shirts from Amazon.

Hol up, I’m gonna take this test again. I’m probably purple right now.

I don’t have a problem with large successful corporations. My problem is that they are above government power. If a regular citizen doesn’t pay their taxes they go to jail. If a corporate citizen doesn’t pay tax, we kindly ask them to pay less than they are supposed to. I would like government power to be commensurate with corporate power.
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Political Musings
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2018, 01:03:45 PM »
Were being ruled over by malicious tyrants currently.

I'll give a good example using Ron Paul and ending the Fed in a few hours when I have time but for now.

I broke my phone screen, the screen costs $10, the guy replacing it will take an hour and is paid approximately $25 an hour.

I was quoted $600 for the phone repair. This is where free market capitalism and libertarianism often leads. With people ripping each other off trying to get ahead.

I don't believe in it.

And like in any free market, you're free to visit their competitors or you're free to buy the necessary materials to do it yourself. In your red-square wonderland, the government has already taken your $600 in taxes because "from each according to his ability, comrade." You had the ability to pay $600 and decided not to do that. Pretty key difference between free market corporatism and governments here. You never get to decide whether or not you want to contribute to an authoritarian government, regardless of how idealistically benevolent you might perceive it as.

Edit: I've split all of this outside of the Political Compass thread.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2018, 01:12:22 PM by Rushy »

Re: Political Musings
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2018, 02:08:57 PM »
In your red-square wonderland, the government has already taken your $600 in taxes because "from each according to his ability, comrade." You had the ability to pay $600 and decided not to do that. Pretty key difference between free market corporatism and governments here.

lolol yep this is exactly how that works; local communist government calculates how much it takes to buy one of everything, then sends you a bill for that amount.
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