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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #340 on: August 09, 2018, 10:25:17 PM »
The 1.898 degrees is the angle at the Moon between the POSITIONS of the observers separated by the full diameter of the Earth? Y/N

Yes

Quote
And this angle will be smaller for observers separated by less latitude? Y/N

The observer is in the same poisition and the earth is rotating between positions.

No, we started out talking about three simultaneous observers, all looking at the Moon at the same instant. One on the equator, one at 45N and one at 45S. There can be no rotation of either Earth or Moon, since no time has elapsed. Your measurement assumes the difference between observer positions to be the full Earth diameter. It will be less than this for the two observers at 45N and 45S.      Y/N

Quote
So the observers at 45N and 45S will be looking along sightlines with a difference of around one degree? They're essentially looking along the same sightline to the Moon?  Y/N

At 45 N and 45 S, the circle that the earth turns on is smaller than the equator I am using, and it will be less... about ~1 degree instead of ~2 degrees

So you agree, that if the two observers sightlines differ in only one degree, that they are essentially looking along the same sightline to the Moon? Could you really tell if you were looking along a line at 50 degrees, say, as opposed to 49 or 51 degrees?

(Tom's calculation method follows)

Where is all of this perspective coming from?

All WHAT 'perspective'? What ARE you talking about?

Why can't you use a simpler, more straightforward method to calculate this, such as I indicated a few pages ago (EDIT Reply #53 in the Crescent Moon thread, not this one)? It's just triangles and solving for angles, with a little spherical geometry to calculate chords, etc.

1.336 degrees which should be split between the two - each is looking some 0.668 degrees away from a notional datum line between Earth and Moon centres. Essentially the same sight line, yes?
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 10:48:21 PM by Tumeni »
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #341 on: August 09, 2018, 10:51:19 PM »
OK, we've established what the system looks like from a plan view. I showed you plan and side views earlier on, or in the Crescent Moon thread.

What does this observation look like from a position BEHIND the observers?

Remember, they are looking from Earth to Moon. If you were behind their heads, looking past them to the Moon, and you could see both the globe and them in one frame, or field of view, what do you think they (and the Moon) would look like?

I suggest it would look something like this;



The sightlines of the outer observers aren't converging by any more than half a degree or so. We've just established that, haven't we? They only look like they are, the same way as parallel railway lines look like they're converging.

However, the ORIENTATION of the observers is clearly different, isn't it?
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 11:02:43 PM by Tumeni »
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Offline BigGuyWhoKills

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #342 on: August 09, 2018, 11:02:36 PM »


This makes sense to me.  The guy on the left side of the picture would see the moon's terminator as nearly horizontal.  The guy on the right side of the picture would see the moon's terminator as nearly vertical.  That would not happen on a flat Earth.

I am now expecting EA to rear it's ugly head.
I am not here to convert you.  I want to know enough to be able to defend the RE model.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #343 on: August 09, 2018, 11:13:19 PM »
OK, we've established what the system looks like from a plan view. I showed you plan and side views earlier on, or in the Crescent Moon thread.

What does this observation look like from a position BEHIND the observers?

Remember, they are looking from Earth to Moon. If you were behind their heads, looking past them to the Moon, and you could see both the globe and them in one frame, or field of view, what do you think they (and the Moon) would look like?

I suggest it would look something like this;

https://i.imgur.com/eBt2BUa.jpg

The sightlines of the outer observers aren't converging by any more than half a degree or so. We've just established that, haven't we? They only look like they are, the same way as parallel railway lines look like they're converging.

However, the ORIENTATION of the observers is clearly different, isn't it?

What are you talking about?

There is only one observer.

The one observer sees phases that look like this in the sky, many which do not point at the sun:



Altitude is the elevation of the moon in the sky. Azimuth is the degrees clockwise from North. The diagram shows phases from full to new.

This one observer will see this apparent shift in perspective. The observer doesn't move from his position. The only thing moving are earth's rotation/celestial bodies, which do not get closer to the observer or change angle by any large amount. The change is very minimal.

We can simulate this with a small ball that is half-colored and pass it over our head to create all of these phases and angles.

But how does the Round Earth system explain this? The Round Earth System can't change as drastically in relation to the observer as the half-colored ball example.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 11:25:39 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #344 on: August 09, 2018, 11:23:40 PM »
There is only one observer.

But you just agreed, a couple of posts ago, right above this, that there were two - when you worked out the angular difference between them, with one on one side of the Earth, and one on the other.  Or are you saying that only one person can look at the Moon at any one time, and nobody else can at the same time?


Quote
The 1.898 degrees is the angle at the Moon between the POSITIONS of the observers separated by the full diameter of the Earth? Y/N

Yes
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #345 on: August 09, 2018, 11:29:04 PM »
There is only one observer.

But you just agreed, a couple of posts ago, right above this, that there were two - when you worked out the angular difference between them, with one on one side of the Earth, and one on the other.  Or are you saying that only one person can look at the Moon at any one time, and nobody else can at the same time?


Quote
The 1.898 degrees is the angle at the Moon between the POSITIONS of the observers separated by the full diameter of the Earth? Y/N

Yes

There is one observer. There are 2 positions because the earth allegedly rotates. Those are the maximum angles the observer can view the moon from due to the rotation of the earth.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #346 on: August 09, 2018, 11:45:08 PM »
There is one observer. There are 2 positions because the earth allegedly rotates. Those are the maximum angles the observer can view the moon from due to the rotation of the earth.

... but surely you agree that if the Earth does rotate, and you can have one observer who observes from position 1, then moves to position 2, that you could also have observer 1 and observer 2 observing at the same time from those respective positions?

Or do you really think that only one person in the world can view the Moon at any one time?
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #347 on: August 10, 2018, 12:04:19 AM »
Recall our conversation in the other thread about what happens to celestial bodies when viewed from different parts of the earth. We can't just rotate the scene.

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You are at the equator looking at the Western Horizon and the moon is passing by from behind overhead, setting vertically into the Western horizon.

Code: [Select]
    |
    |
    V
---------
  west

Now you rotate the image by 90 degrees to simulate what would happen at the North Pole.

Code: [Select]
       |
west   | <---------
       |

Now the moon seems to be passing over the North Pole...

At 45 degrees N or S the moon is also passing overhead too far North or South, if one were to rotate the image 45 degrees left or right. Rotating the image is not enough to simulate the curvature of the earth.


Here is an illustration of the moon with a green arrow to mark orientation at 45 degrees N, 0 N, and 45 Degrees South:



The problem is that you need to get the moon to point away from the sun, regardless of that tilt of the horizon. The moon can be pointed away from the sun with the sun in the sky at the same time.

Regardless of the tilt of the horizon, the moon is pointing away from the sun in the Moon Tilt Illusion.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 01:11:40 AM by Tom Bishop »

Offline model 29

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #348 on: August 10, 2018, 02:18:34 AM »
Tom, Can you show us why a "significant" (as it compares to the aforementioned distances involved) change in distance while in motion is necessary in order to have a perspective effect?
Geometry works in ratios. Look at the animation I posted in my previous post. If the laptop screen is far from the observer those same motions are not going to cause the same effect. The screen would not change at all.
Really?  Ok show us.

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Look at the animation I posted on the last page. If the white surface were much further from the observer, those slight motions would not cause the same effect. The surface would hardly change in perspective at all.
Can you show us that one too?  Hold the camera the same distance away as when it starts, and only move down, remaining level left-right, and looking up and to the left.

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In an example of a pencil pointed horizontally; in order to get a pencil to change perspective and point in a different direction you will need to move around it radically in comparison to your distance to that pencil.
You've taken the globe distances and scaled them down.  And?

Quote
If that pencil is 10,000 feet away from the observer, your movements would have to be of a much larger magnitude. Your same movements will not change the pencil to perspective. Bill agreed with that. Do you disagree?
I guess if you believe the (globe) distance from the sun to the moon is 239,000 miles, and Earth is roughly 7billion miles away from the two.  Is that what you believe the distances are in the globe model?  Do you have a source stating those distances?

Quote
The moon is only going to shift over you about 2 degrees due to the rotation of the earth/moon in the Round Earth system, and the sun much less than that.
And?  We're talking about perspective involving the angles the moon is view at during certain periods of its orbit.  Why are you attempting to derail and/or confuse yourself further?


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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #349 on: August 10, 2018, 06:53:02 AM »
We can't just rotate the scene.

Why not? I've shown a real photograph of the Moon, not a diagram, with my dummy Earth in front of it, with three stick men on the surface, at what would be approx 55N (middle), 10N (left) and 80N. This is roughly equivalent to 45S, 0, 45N. I can't travel to the equator to take photos for this thread.

If the Moon, at any one instant in time, is visible in this orientation for the observer at 55N, then the observers at the other points, at exactly the same time, MUST see it tilted 45 degrees left or right, because they are orientated that way, some 45 degrees off the orientation of the middle observer. The photo shows the Moon in the orientation appropriate for me, the actual photographer, standing upright. If I leaned the camera one side or the other, the Moon's orientation in the photo would change. Since the side observers already have this rotation, then if they photographed the Moon whilst upright, they would capture it in the same orientation as I did by rotating the camera. 

You've already agreed that they are all looking, broadly, along the same line of sight, with only a degree or so difference.


Quote
You are at the equator looking at the Western Horizon and the moon is passing by from behind overhead, setting vertically into the Western horizon.

But we're not looking at its passing, simply how it appears at one instant in time.

Now you rotate the image by 90 degrees to simulate what would happen at the North Pole.

Now the moon seems to be passing over the North Pole...

Again, only looking at one instant in time. Not considering its movement, or direction at present, simply how it appears in the sky at that one instant to the three observers. 


Rotating the image is not enough to simulate the curvature of the earth.

Why not?


Here is an illustration of the moon with a green arrow to mark orientation at 45 degrees N, 0 N, and 45 Degrees South:

IMG

Photo trumps diagram.

The problem is that you need to get the moon to point away from the sun, regardless of that tilt of the horizon.

Why? I'm showing no tilt in any horizon. The horizon for each stick man in my photo is a line perpendicular to the vertical of their bodies. Image to follow to illustrate this.


The moon can be pointed away from the sun with the sun in the sky at the same time.

Can it? Please show us with a photo. 

Regardless of the tilt of the horizon

What tilt?


, the moon is pointing away from the sun in the Moon Tilt Illusion.

It's an ILLUSION.

We can circle back to that, but let's deal with the actual photograph of the Moon, and what this tells us first. The photo above does not illustrate the illusion, and was never intended to illustrate the illusion. It's just a photo of the Moon, taken late morning, when the Sun and Moon were both in the sky.
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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #350 on: August 10, 2018, 07:34:45 AM »
Has anyone tried the string experiment?

We're entering the new moon phase now so it'll be a week or so before the time will be ripe to try it. Maybe a picture is worth more than all these thousands of words to show that the line oriented normal to the moon's terminator is "pointing" to the sun and not off kilter as the illusion makes it appear to be.

I'll do it.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #351 on: August 10, 2018, 07:52:36 AM »
Has anyone tried the string experiment?

We're entering the new moon phase now ...

I'll do it.

Excellent.

Meanwhile, continuing the theme above;

Here's me looking at the Moon



Here's what the Moon would look like for someone 90 degrees of latitude away from me, to my right (the Moon was in the South)



I'm now the horizontal stick man on the left, and this new observer is at the top. Note how the Moon would look for him/her. Remember, we've agreed both are broadly looking along the same sightline.

(To borrow your pencil analogy, they're both in line with a pencil held along the line connecting Earth and Moon centres. No more than one degree off, if this angle is measured at the Moon)

Tom - Yes? No?
« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 09:55:53 AM by Tumeni »
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Offline MCToon

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #352 on: August 10, 2018, 09:09:44 AM »
To have a full moon for everyone on earth on the same day, the moon needs to be directly above the sun, if it's to the side, eve slightly, different parts of the world would see a significantly different fullness of the moon.  I don't see how this works as the sun and moon aren't apparently near each other on days with a full moon, they are generally the farthest away from each other on full moon days.  Is there something I'm missing here?  Could a diagram be generated that makes sense?

This is not correct. In the round earth model there is a degree of difference in which we can have a full moon without it being in the shadow of the earth.

This same degree of difference could exist in a flat earth model too but the altitude of the moon would have to be hundreds of thousands of miles above the sun which contradicts the wiki and what we observe in the real world.

The alternate theory for the flat earth was that the moon is generating its own light.

You are correct, I cannot see how the moon above the sun to produce a full moon works on FE.  I'm looking for someone to support and explain how it works.  The wiki on this very site claims the full moon is because the moon is above the sun, I cannot fathom how this claim can be supported.

The moon generating it's own light is only for people that desire to make flat earthers look stupid.  Before telescopes, this was worth contemplating.  With our easy to obtain resolution through basic telescopes or good cameras, it's so completely incorrect that it's not worth discussing.
I love this site, it's a fantastic collection of evidence of a spherical earth:
Flight times
Full moon
Horizon eye level drops
Sinking ship effect

Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #353 on: August 10, 2018, 06:53:13 PM »
Has anyone tried the string experiment?

We're entering the new moon phase now so it'll be a week or so before the time will be ripe to try it. Maybe a picture is worth more than all these thousands of words to show that the line oriented normal to the moon's terminator is "pointing" to the sun and not off kilter as the illusion makes it appear to be.

I'll do it.

i've tried it on both crescent and gibbous phases, but i couldn't figure out a easy way to take an image of the results.
shitposting leftists are never alone

Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #354 on: August 10, 2018, 10:30:25 PM »
Has anyone tried the string experiment?

We're entering the new moon phase now so it'll be a week or so before the time will be ripe to try it. Maybe a picture is worth more than all these thousands of words to show that the line oriented normal to the moon's terminator is "pointing" to the sun and not off kilter as the illusion makes it appear to be.

I'll do it.

i've tried it on both crescent and gibbous phases, but i couldn't figure out a easy way to take an image of the results.

I figured on taking a panorama. You just need to make sure the pan is at the angle of the string rather than the horizon. If you pan level with the horizon, the string will appear to bow (which, actually, would illustrate why the apparent trace from moon to sun bows).

Now that I think about it, I don't even have to wait for the moon. I can stretch taught a string between two locations that would line up with a predicted moon/sun orientation, show that's it's straight from one perspective, but then take a pano aligned with the horizon and, voila', my straight string will come out looking curved.

I'm going to look at Stellarium to find a time/date when I should be able to see this illusion, take note of the moon and sun elevations and azimuths and then set up poles aligned with where the sun and moon will be. Stretch the string taught across the top of the poles and then take a couple of panoramics: 1 aligned with the horizon and 1 panning at the angle of the string.

That'll be the predictive model. Then to wait for the actual date and see if the results are the same.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2018, 12:36:42 AM by Bobby Shafto »

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #355 on: August 11, 2018, 01:55:32 PM »
The 1.898 degrees is the angle at the Moon between the POSITIONS of the observers separated by the full diameter of the Earth? Y/N

Yes.  The image, as I am using it here, is assuming two observers on the equator. At 45 N and 45 S, the circle that the earth turns on is smaller than the equator, and it will be less... about ~1 degree instead of ~2 degrees.

Updated Image, Top-Down View:
IMG

So ... Tom has taken two observer points on opposite sides of the globe, and formed a triangle to a point representing the Moon, some 240k miles away, and calculated the angle formed by the two sightlines at the Moon.

If we really want to establish the angle between each observer's sightlines at 45N and 45S, we need to do better than calculating a single angle at the Moon from a single triangle drawn to their locations.

1. From this source, the angular size of the Moon is 31 arc mins, or approx 0.5 degrees.

https://lco.global/spacebook/using-angles-describe-positions-and-apparent-sizes-objects/



2. From the single points on Earth of these two observers, at 45N and 45S, mirroring this picture, we can draw in these angles (the Orange circular dots). These are 0.5 degrees. I've marked in the upper and lower limits of this 0.5 degrees with the orange lines.



3. A straight line connecting the two observers through the Earth is the length of a Chord, where the angle of Arc covered is 90 degrees (one observer at 45N, one at 45S, 45+45 = 90)

We have already established that for an Earth radius of 3959 miles, this chord has length 5,598 miles (Green line in above)

4. If the two observers were truly looking along sightlines parallel to each other, they would be looking along the blue lines. They are separated by 5,598 miles at Earth, and true parallel sightlines would arrive at the Moon's distance still separated by 5,598 miles. The Moon has a diameter of 2,159 miles (Purple square), so the 'space' left each side of the Moon where these imaginary sightlines pass it by is (Blue square) 1,720 miles on each side (5,598 - 2,159 = 3,439, div by 2 = 1,720)

5. This gives us a right-angle triangle, where we need to solve for the small angle indicated by the blue circle. The intermediate side is equal to 240k miles (distance to Moon, rounded, and taken as the distance from observer's eyeball to a vertical drawn through the geometric centre of the Moon), and the small side (Blue square) we have just derived as 1,720. Put this into a right triangle calculator (http://www.cleavebooks.co.uk/scol/calrtri.htm), and this gives us a blue circle angle of 0.411 degrees.

This is entirely  consistent with the angular size of the Moon being 0.5 degrees. (Angular size of 1720 miles = 0.411, angular size of 2159 miles = 0.5)

6. Adding this to the 0.5 degrees of the Orange circle, this gives an absolute MAXIMUM deviation from a true parallel sightline of 0.9 degrees approx.

Therefore, to all intents and purposes, the two observers, if looking at the Moon at the same instant, are looking at it along the
same sightline. Neither observer would be able to tell, with the naked eye, if they were looking at any different angle from the other.

The above shows a side-on view. From a position behind Earth and the observers, looking toward the Moon, it would look something like this;



Agreed? Tom?   

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #356 on: August 12, 2018, 12:43:59 AM »

I'm going to look at Stellarium to find a time/date when I should be able to see this illusion, take note of the moon and sun elevations and azimuths and then set up poles aligned with where the sun and moon will be. Stretch the string taught across the top of the poles and then take a couple of panoramics: 1 aligned with the horizon and 1 panning at the angle of the string.

That'll be the predictive model. Then to wait for the actual date and see if the results are the same.

I think the pre-sunset evening of Friday, August 17th will be my target:



Greater than 90° field of view between sun (when it's close to the horizon to the west) and moon (at peak elevation to the south) means that'll make it a half moon and, clear skies willing, it'll present me with a moon that won't appear to be "pointing" its illuminated half toward the sun. Will the string trick break the illusion?

Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #357 on: August 15, 2018, 04:37:03 PM »
Plan is to perform this observation (or, in local lingo, experiment) at a nearby park with open 360° views on Friday about a half hour before sunset:



Camera on tripod at 2.5' height as center point.
2 styrofoam balls set on garden stakes:
  1) 6' stake on 189° bearing, 3'9" away to create a 43° elevation angle from camera level for the moon.
  2) 3' stake on a 281° bearing, 4'9" away to create a 6° elevation angle from camera level for the sun.



Hoping the sky will be clear, especially the western horizon, so that the sun will still be able to cast light on the "moon" ball and replicate the actual moon's terminator. 

The sun and moon (and their model ball counterparts) won't be in the same field of view, but I'll try to capture the illusion in a panoramic shot.

Then, I'll stretch a length of colored twine between the "moon" and "sun" balls and we'll see what that does for the perception of misalignment of terminator with the sun.

Any comments, suggestions or critiques?

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #358 on: August 15, 2018, 04:45:51 PM »
Any comments, suggestions or critiques?

Can you specify the town, village or city in which this park is located?

I'd like to look at mooncalc, suncalc, and in-the-sky so that I can see what they predict.
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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #359 on: August 15, 2018, 04:50:52 PM »
That info is in the post just prior.

San Diego, CA
August 17th
6:55

(More realistically, around 6:30.  I need to be packed up and done by 7.)