*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 5276
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #100 on: July 10, 2018, 08:26:24 PM »
Finite geometry is easily illustrated:

This reply is about finite geometry. It does nothing to help bobby understand where the sun and the moon could be in relation to each other during a full moon.

That's right Bobby. You are using the Ancient Greeks Continuous Universe perspective model as a disproof

This reply is about perspective.  It does nothing to help bobby understand where the sun and the moon could be in relation to each other during a full moon.

Why would you start a thread and then complain about literally every answer you get? Tom clearly asked you to stop posting off-topic in another thread - that is by no means an indication that he'd rush to discuss the other subject with you. None of your complaints are valid, and the OP's approval for where a thread ends up going is irrelevant.

He is complaining because he asks a question about flat earth models and gets 30 answers from people who either believe the earth is round or are undecided and the response from people who believe the earth is flat does nothing to help him understand a full moon.



Tom/Pete/any other flat earther,


I've made an attempt to describe or create some sort of rough diagram of where the sun and the moon are in relation to each other when there is a full moon.  Do you agree/disagree with either of these, if so why?


Here is one where the moon is above the sun. The Sun is shining upwards illuminating a full circle of the moon from the viewers below.

From the wiki:
"When the moon is above the altitude of the sun the moon is fully lit and a Full Moon occurs."
https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Phases_of_the_Moon






Here is one where the moon could be at an equal or lower altitude if the light is refracting/bending back upwards



Can anyone help clear this up for me? And get back to the original post instead of debating if the moon rotates or not. The Wiki says that the moon is a higher altitude than the sun, the bendy light model says that the moon is a lower altitude than the sun and now there is a self lighting moon model. Isn't there a way that we can disprove one of these? I feel like so many different answers just makes things much more confusing.

should the self lit moon be added to the flat earth wiki? why is the bendy light model not at all represented on the flat earth wiki? Why has no one other than me attempted to diagram where the moon is in relation to the sun during a full moon.

The moon doesn't have to be within the sun's area of light that shines on the earth. The sun and moon are at similar altitudes, so the light from the sun can proceed unimpeded.

Offline iamcpc

  • *
  • Posts: 284
    • View Profile
Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #101 on: July 10, 2018, 08:42:35 PM »
The moon doesn't have to be within the sun's area of light that shines on the earth. The sun and moon are at similar altitudes, so the light from the sun can proceed unimpeded.

This model makes a lot more sense to me. The light we get from the sun behaves much differently than the light the moon gets from the sun because of our atmosphere, perspective, refraction etc.

What does "Similar" altitudes mean?
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 05:12:52 PM by iamcpc »

Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #102 on: July 10, 2018, 09:07:46 PM »
The moon doesn't have to be within the sun's area of light that shines on the earth. The sun and moon are at similar altitudes, so the light from the sun can proceed unimpeded.

Show us. Diagram it.

I can't find a way to line the sun and moon up so that the side lit fully by the sun is fully seen from earth.

Offline iamcpc

  • *
  • Posts: 284
    • View Profile
Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #103 on: July 11, 2018, 12:46:54 AM »
The moon doesn't have to be within the sun's area of light that shines on the earth. The sun and moon are at similar altitudes, so the light from the sun can proceed unimpeded.

Show us. Diagram it.

I can't find a way to line the sun and moon up so that the side lit fully by the sun is fully seen from earth.

I understand the suns light not being impeded by the atmosphere but The more I think about it the more I believe that the sun and the moon can't be at similar altitudes. If they were at similar altitudes then it would be a half moon if you were standing directly below the moon.


This video demonstrates if the moon and the sun are at similar altitudes.



It's a full moon for people in the middle of the circle, a half moon for people below the moon and a new moon for people on the outside of the circle.




The moon must be very far away in when it's full and very close when it's a new moon.

OR

The sun is very close during a full moon and very far during a new moon.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 12:51:52 AM by iamcpc »

Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #104 on: July 11, 2018, 05:49:25 AM »
^ You posted that before.

But don't forget:

"...in order to see a full moon with 100% totality...you would need to be looking at the moon's daylight side face-on,"

Source: https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Full_Moon_is_Impossible_in_Round_Earth_Theory


Nowhere on the flat earth of that video would anyone be able to be looking at the moon's daylight side face-on. The issue of alignment in the critique of RE geometry is even more pronounced for flat earth models, including the one in that video.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 05:51:50 AM by Bobby Shafto »

Offline iamcpc

  • *
  • Posts: 284
    • View Profile
Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #105 on: July 11, 2018, 05:14:41 PM »
The moon doesn't have to be within the sun's area of light that shines on the earth. The sun and moon are at similar altitudes, so the light from the sun can proceed unimpeded.

Show us. Diagram it.

I can't find a way to line the sun and moon up so that the side lit fully by the sun is fully seen from earth.




I don't think you will get the diagram that you want from the people that you want it from.  I know you want a response from someone who believes the earth is flat but you will have to settle with someone who has no idea what the shape of the earth is because I've never been to space and never put a camera on a baloon. 

"When the moon is above the altitude of the sun the moon is fully lit and a Full Moon occurs."
https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Phases_of_the_Moon


This one most accurately reflects the wiki:

As far as distances I have not the slightest clue. I have a friend who has taken many astronomy classes for his degree and he was not interested in trying to outline the altitude of the moon in one of 150 different flat earth models.

The moon is so far above the sun  (and so far away from the earth) that, no matter where you are on earth, it is basically fully lit.





This is a direct conflict with Tom's view that the sun and the moon are at similar altitudes during a full moon.

This is also a direct conflict with any flat earth model which claims that the moon is only a few thousand miles away from earth.



« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 05:28:46 PM by iamcpc »

Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #106 on: July 11, 2018, 07:33:16 PM »



Nowhere on the earth's surface of that diagram is the following satisfies: "...in order to see a full moon with 100% totality...you would need to be looking at the moon's daylight side face-on,"

It can't be done. The angle for which the moon was offset from round earth before being eclipsed was 0.52°. And that was too much for the critics of RE to say that the 100% total fullness of the moon could be seen from anywhere on round earth.

0.52°!!

There is no way to even come close to 0.52° offset alignment on a flat earth. If you put the sun and moon at 3000 miles high but at opposite edges of a 12,500-mile wide flat earth, you would still only achieve a 13-14° angle  viewing angle to the illuminated sun, and that would be during the day time with the sun directly overhead.

The point I was trying to make with this topic was that the reasoning for quibbling over whether or not we can actually see a 100% totality of fullness in round earth/moon/sun geometry is forgotten when it comes to applying that same criticism to full moons in any flat earth geometry. If it's impossible for RE, it's 25x more impossible (if that even makes sense) for FE, without invoking some ad hoc elements to skirt the impossibility...which you could just as easily do for RE.

I'd hoped this would illustrate the absurdity of this argument...
https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Full_Moon_is_Impossible_in_Round_Earth_Theory

...by turning it around on FET and seeing how it was handled.

Offline iamcpc

  • *
  • Posts: 284
    • View Profile
Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #107 on: July 11, 2018, 08:08:44 PM »

Nowhere on the earth's surface of that diagram is the following satisfies: "...in order to see a full moon with 100% totality...you would need to be looking at the moon's daylight side face-on,"



I disagree. My diagram was very poor. Maybe this one will be more clear. There is no where on the black line in which you would see a dark part of the moon. The only parts of the moon which you would be able to see from that far away would be lit by the sun.



Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #108 on: July 11, 2018, 08:35:56 PM »

I disagree. My diagram was very poor. Maybe this one will be more clear. There is no where on the black line in which you would see a dark part of the moon. The only parts of the moon which you would be able to see from that far away would be lit by the sun.
It wouldn't be 100%.

The only place from which you could see 100% of the moon lit by the sun in that diagram would be from directly below the sun, and that's assuming you could penetrate the light of the sun and see through the sun itself.

This is the same sort of geometric objection to being able to see 100% full moon from round earth. The alignment that that would require puts the earth in the path of the sun and causes an eclipse, so you can't see a 100% full moon. The moon has to be off axis, and even though that's only 0.52° and the moon may be 99.9% illuminated, there will still be a slight terminator due to that non-alignment.

Fine.

But that applies to flat earth too. Even in the extreme shown in your diagram, in which the moon is many times the altitude of the sun, anyone who is off axis from that alignment will be off axis from seeing the 100% full moon. The arrangement of earth-sun-moon is just in a different order, but it's the same geometric dilemma. You could probably come up with a theoretical distance for which a 32-mile wide moon can be above the sun such that you can find a spot on earth below the sun that is less than 0.52° off axis, but then that's going to be daytime for the observer. To be off axis and still on the night side of earth, and make that angle <0.52°, you're talking about a moon that's 500,000 - 600,000 miles higher than the sun.  Really?

You can't have your geometry issues with round earth full moon impossibilities and casually ad hoc them away for flat earth too.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 08:38:55 PM by Bobby Shafto »

Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #109 on: July 11, 2018, 08:58:33 PM »
These diagrams baffle me. The full moon doesn't occur when the moon and the sun are both more-or-less directly above you at the same time. They happen when the moon and the sun are as far apart in the sky as they can possibly get.

Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #110 on: July 11, 2018, 09:14:14 PM »
These diagrams baffle me. The full moon doesn't occur when the moon and the sun are both more-or-less directly above you at the same time. They happen when the moon and the sun are as far apart in the sky as they can possibly get.

Typical Round Earther.  ;D

I completely agree with you, but these are attempts - devil's advocate attempts, perhaps, but sincere I think -- to work out how the sun and moon could be aligned over a flat earth to create a 100% total full moon. My challenge is that it can't be done. All of the explanations and diagrams for moon phases over a flat earth would produce a far less full moon than even the 99.9% full moon on a round earth that is somehow problematic for RET according to the TFES wiki using the same reasoning. 

Self-luminescence proposed by one (JRowe) could work, if true, because it eliminates the need for reflected light and alignment.

But that discussion went down a whole tangent about other aspects of the moon (it's shape, it's rotation).

Speaking of which, I never saw a good waning crescent moon this time around that showed "earthlight" illumination of it's portion in shadow. Now, we're in the new moon phase, so I'll have to wait and start watching Friday or so just after sunset to see if I can catch it on the waxing crescent. JRowe said he'd never seen such the phenomenon.

Here's a photo I found taken in early February 2014 of a waxing crescent just after sunset off of San Diego's Ocean Beach. I think around 8-9PM this coming Saturday I ought to be able to see a Summer version of this if skies are clear enough.

Offline iamcpc

  • *
  • Posts: 284
    • View Profile
Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #111 on: July 11, 2018, 09:45:05 PM »
It wouldn't be 100%.

The only place from which you could see 100% of the moon lit by the sun in that diagram would be from directly below the sun, and that's assuming you could penetrate the light of the sun and see through the sun itself.

This is the same sort of geometric objection to being able to see 100% full moon from round earth

There are many parts of the flat earth wiki that many people disagree with. (like Tom disagreeing with the wiki on the position of the moon in relation to the sun during a full moon) This is one part of the flat earth wiki I disagree with or someone would need to help me better understand. This would be easy enough to test. You would need a sphere of some sort on the ceiling with light shining on the bottom, a plum, and a camera. Maybe draw some "dark" lines on the ball where the light stops and see how far away you can get the camera from the plum line before it sees the "dark" lines.

That circle around the plum line could be a representation of a flat plane or a viewing area on a sphere which would disprove both claims that a full moon is impossible on a _____ earth.


But that applies to flat earth too. Even in the extreme shown in your diagram, in which the moon is many times the altitude of the sun, anyone who is off axis from that alignment will be off axis from seeing the 100% full moon. The arrangement of earth-sun-moon is just in a different order, but it's the same geometric dilemma.

I agree 100%. I believe this geometric dilemma does not apply to the round earth or the flat earth.


 You could probably come up with a theoretical distance for which a 32-mile wide moon can be above the sun such that you can find a spot on earth below the sun that is less than 0.52° off axis, but then that's going to be daytime for the observer. To be off axis and still on the night side of earth, and make that angle <0.52°, you're talking about a moon that's 500,000 - 600,000 miles higher than the sun.  Really?




Yes. the altitude of the moon would have to be a MASSIVE distance above the sun. During a new moon the moon would have to be below the sun. Either the sun, moon, or both would have to make massive altitude changes in their orbits in the flat earth full moon caused by sunlight model that i'm able to visualize.

It's either that or the Moon creates its own light which is a totally different ball game that I've only ever just heard about in this thread.

It's my opinion that a full moon is possible on the round earth and one of the many flat earth models. I believe that the wiki is incorrect in it's hypothesis just like I believe that you are incorrect in yours.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 09:51:10 PM by iamcpc »

Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #112 on: July 11, 2018, 09:52:54 PM »
Speaking of which, I never saw a good waning crescent moon this time around that showed "earthlight" illumination of it's portion in shadow. Now, we're in the new moon phase, so I'll have to wait and start watching Friday or so just after sunset to see if I can catch it on the waxing crescent. JRowe said he'd never seen such the phenomenon.
Here's a youtube video for you. Tracking the moon during moonrise... yesterday I think? Couple days ago anyway. He seriously over-exposes the shot, and you can see the Earth-shine side of the moon really well when he's doing that.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 5276
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #113 on: July 11, 2018, 10:13:16 PM »
Quote
Yes. the altitude of the moon would have to be a MASSIVE distance above the sun. During a new moon the moon would have to be below the sun. Either the sun, moon, or both would have to make massive altitude changes in their orbits in the flat earth full moon caused by sunlight model that i'm able to visualize.

It's either that or the Moon creates its own light which is a totally different ball game that I've only ever just heard about in this thread.

It's my opinion that a full moon is possible on the round earth and one of the many flat earth models. I believe that the wiki is incorrect in it's hypothesis just like I believe that you are incorrect in yours.

Rowbotham believed that the moon produced its own light, and wrote about that in Earth Not a Globe. A self-illuminating moon can be added as an alternative, sure. However, I am only one person, and there are not many people working on the Wiki.

The description in the Wiki uses the finite perspective ideas where the perspective lines do not extend infinitely as believed by the Ancient Greeks, and will instead meet a finite distance away, like railroad tracks appear to meet in a perspective scene. A rewrite is in order to explain it better.

See: Why we see the same side of the moon
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 10:21:37 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #114 on: July 12, 2018, 01:44:27 AM »
 Where will the Sun be on the night of July 27th? Full lunar eclipse. But only visible in certain countries. Why is that? Can someone explain,please? Thanks

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 5276
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #115 on: July 12, 2018, 01:55:51 AM »
Where will the Sun be on the night of July 27th? Full lunar eclipse. But only visible in certain countries. Why is that? Can someone explain,please? Thanks

The Lunar Eclipse is visible to anyone who can see the moon. You are thinking about the Solar Eclipse.

To find the positions of the sun on July 27, we can use the NOAA Sun Calculator. The NOAA has provided an Excel spreadsheet version of their online calculator here:

https://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/grad/solcalc/NOAA_Solar_Calculations_day.xls

Feel free to look at the formula sources in that spreadsheet and try and find where the Round Earth Theory is expressed or where we see keplerian orbital mechanics. The calculations are simple equations that are based on the pattern of previous observations and occurrences, as all of the astronomical calculators are.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2018, 02:14:27 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #116 on: July 12, 2018, 02:23:54 AM »
Where will the Sun be on the night of July 27th? Full lunar eclipse. But only visible in certain countries. Why is that? Can someone explain,please? Thanks

The Lunar Eclipse is visible to anyone who can see the moon. You are thinking about the Solar Eclipse.

To find the positions of the sun on July 27, we can use the NOAA Sun Calculator. The NOAA has provided an Excel spreadsheet version of their online calculator here:

https://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/grad/solcalc/NOAA_Solar_Calculations_day.xls

Feel free to look at the formula sources in that spreadsheet and try and find where the Round Earth Theory is expressed or where we see keplerian orbital mechanics. The calculations are simple equations that are based on the pattern of previous observations and occurrences, as all of the astronomical calculators are.
A light perusing of the source material for those equations suggests they are derived from/using the RE Heliocentric model. But I'm not 100% on this, as the listed source is in fact more of a secondary source, that has created/condensed this information. They are under no requirement to say how the formula is derived in that page, when they list the source. While I can't say what would need to change to reflect a FE model, if what I'm reading is correct the original derivations are indeed dependent on a model.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 5276
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #117 on: July 12, 2018, 02:50:07 AM »
Where will the Sun be on the night of July 27th? Full lunar eclipse. But only visible in certain countries. Why is that? Can someone explain,please? Thanks

The Lunar Eclipse is visible to anyone who can see the moon. You are thinking about the Solar Eclipse.

To find the positions of the sun on July 27, we can use the NOAA Sun Calculator. The NOAA has provided an Excel spreadsheet version of their online calculator here:

https://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/grad/solcalc/NOAA_Solar_Calculations_day.xls

Feel free to look at the formula sources in that spreadsheet and try and find where the Round Earth Theory is expressed or where we see keplerian orbital mechanics. The calculations are simple equations that are based on the pattern of previous observations and occurrences, as all of the astronomical calculators are.
A light perusing of the source material for those equations suggests they are derived from/using the RE Heliocentric model. But I'm not 100% on this, as the listed source is in fact more of a secondary source, that has created/condensed this information. They are under no requirement to say how the formula is derived in that page, when they list the source. While I can't say what would need to change to reflect a FE model, if what I'm reading is correct the original derivations are indeed dependent on a model.

We can reverse engineer it. Find the columns that you think have something to do with the Round Earth model and put zeros into the fields and see what happens.

For instance:

O: Sun Rad Vector (AUs)

The default is 1.000001018.

Put 0 in those boxes and see what happens. It doesn't affect the predictions at all. I also tried 9.5 AUs. No effect. It gives the same result whether the calculator is operating under the assumption of 0 Astronomical Units or 9.5 Astronomical Units.

Looking at the equations shows that these are very simple formulas, and certainly not orbital mechanics.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2018, 02:53:38 AM by Tom Bishop »

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 5276
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #118 on: July 12, 2018, 04:22:17 AM »
According to the NOAA website the calculator is based on a book called Astronomical Algorithms (PDF) by Jean Meeus. The following is found:



Funny, I was able to even delete the AU column entirely from the worksheet, and the worksheet still gave the same results, even when the year and day was changed after it was removed. In some areas of the book the author likes to pretend that he is using Heliocentric theory for his algorithms.

Reading closely, the book admits that the algorithms are just using statistical (pattern-based) methods:

« Last Edit: July 12, 2018, 04:40:30 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #119 on: July 12, 2018, 09:27:55 AM »
Rowbotham believed that the moon produced its own light, and wrote about that in Earth Not a Globe.
Really? He believed the moon is self-illuminating, that it produces "cold light" and that it's translucent?!
And this is someone whose writings you take seriously and base your beliefs on? Wow...

On the first of those, this is a photo I took of the moon with a relatively cheap camera



Even on that you can see the moon's features (which you can see with the naked eye) and you can see some of the bigger craters and the way shadows are cast by them.
It's clear that it is being lit by a light source.
"This is literally just a few people talking about it for a brief time every day on their spare time. That’s the flat earth movement" - Tom Bishop