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Offline JRowe

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #80 on: July 08, 2018, 05:31:20 PM »
The light on the ball is going to change daily from sunrise through to sunset, so if it is meant to match the moon then the same should be true of it.

Yes, the angle of the sunlight on the Moon, as seen from Earth, will vary, but the phase of the moon will not noticeably change.

Do this at any time you can see the sun and the moon, and the light on the ball matches the light on the moon. I've done this personally, twice over the last three days. Quite a coincidence, for a non-illuminated superheated cylinder, wouldn't you say?

Doesn't it suggest to you that the ball and the moon are being illuminated by the same light source?
No, you haven't done that, this whole line of inquiry is ludicrous. The moon does not magically change from having its left side lit to having its right side lit over the course of a day, while that would obviously happen with a ball lit by the Sun. Are you kidding me?! Seriously, what the actual thork are you talking about?

How exactly does that exist? Never seen the moon looking anything like that.
Well, I and many others have.
Do you take pleasure in completely ignoring every single question I ask you? This is the second thread.
How. Does. That. Exist?

My DE model explained here.
Open to questions, but if you're curious start there rather than expecting me to explain it all from scratch every time.

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Offline JRowe

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #81 on: July 08, 2018, 05:34:33 PM »
Merely saying it's suspect is not a disproof of any of it. No space mission has ever reported seeing a superheated cylinder where our Moon is supposed to be. What evidence do you have of it, beyond your theory?
I am not going to let you drag this topic to the conspiracy, it is a completely different subject. If there aren't other threads on it start one, but why space travel is faked is huge, detailed, and nothing to do with how the moon works.

As for those photos, same point as I made to Rabinoz and to Bobby before, the moon does not look like that. I've seen gibbous, half, crescent, new, never lit-crescent-dimly-lit-gibbous.
My DE model explained here.
Open to questions, but if you're curious start there rather than expecting me to explain it all from scratch every time.

Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #82 on: July 08, 2018, 05:42:22 PM »
The light on the ball is going to change daily from sunrise through to sunset, so if it is meant to match the moon then the same should be true of it.

Yes, the angle of the sunlight on the Moon, as seen from Earth, will vary, but the phase of the moon will not noticeably change.

Do this at any time you can see the sun and the moon, and the light on the ball matches the light on the moon. I've done this personally, twice over the last three days. Quite a coincidence, for a non-illuminated superheated cylinder, wouldn't you say?

Doesn't it suggest to you that the ball and the moon are being illuminated by the same light source?
No, you haven't done that, this whole line of inquiry is ludicrous. The moon does not magically change from having its left side lit to having its right side lit over the course of a day, while that would obviously happen with a ball lit by the Sun. Are you kidding me?! Seriously, what the actual thork are you talking about?

I don't think you are getting it.

1: Use any day where the sun shines and the moon is visible.
2: Hold a small ball in front of you in the direction of the moon (so that it is just in front or besides the moon for comparison)
3: Observe
Result: The small ball is exactly lit just like the moon, showing the same pattern of shadow as the moon.

I've done this myself aswell, and it ALWAYS shows this result.

If we use this observation, and construct an explanation that the moon is lit by the sun, it makes perfect sense.
If we then apply this explanation to all observations of the moon, we can easily conclude that the sun goes below the horizon and below the ground we stand on, especially on a full moon, where it should be opposite the direction of the moon.
It also explains why there is never a full moon when the sun is up and why the new moon is only present when the sun is up.

Everything points to a globe with these observations, but as all FEers, you will either reject the observations, try to make some weird magical FE logic for the observation, or ignore it completely.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2018, 05:53:20 PM by SphericalEarther »

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Offline JRowe

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #83 on: July 08, 2018, 05:52:28 PM »
I don't think you are getting it.

1: Use any day where the sun shines and the moon is visible.
2: Hold a small ball in front of you in the direction of the moon (so that it is just in front or besides the moon for comparison)
3: Observe
Result: The small ball is exactly lit just like the moon, showing the same pattern of shadow as the moon.

I've done this myself aswell, and it ALWAYS shows this result.
I get it, it's not complicated, it is still objectively rubbish. If you hold a ball up at sunrise the, say, left side of it will be lit. If you hold it up at sunset, the right side will then be lit. Meanwhile name one time the side of the moon that's lit changes over the course of a day. Am I seriously going to need to repeat this again? To say nothing of the only significant part of Tumeni's claim, that the 'pattern of illumination' rather than mere direction would match. Feel free to show me a ball illuminated like a full moon or a new moon at sunrise, noon and sunset.


Yes, there is some correllation between the Sun and the moon (the same basic force is responsible for their movement, long story) but not to the degree you are proposing, and that experiment is nonsense.
My DE model explained here.
Open to questions, but if you're curious start there rather than expecting me to explain it all from scratch every time.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #84 on: July 08, 2018, 05:56:57 PM »
I get it, it's not complicated, it is still objectively rubbish. If you hold a ball up at sunrise the, say, left side of it will be lit. If you hold it up at sunset, the right side will then be lit. Meanwhile name one time the side of the moon that's lit changes over the course of a day.

You won't see the Moon in the sky for the whole of this duration. You can only do this when the sun and moon are both in the sky.

Have you actually tried it, or are you insisting that it's "objectively rubbish" on how you think it will work?





To say nothing of the only significant part of Tumeni's claim, that the 'pattern of illumination' rather than mere direction would match. Feel free to show me a ball illuminated like a full moon or a new moon at sunrise, noon and sunset.

Nobody said you would be able to choose all times of the day to do this. You can only do it when sun and moon are both in the sky.


Yes, there is some correllation between the Sun and the moon (the same basic force is responsible for their movement, long story) but not to the degree you are proposing, and that experiment is nonsense.

But have. you. tried. it?
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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #85 on: July 08, 2018, 05:57:18 PM »
I don't think you are getting it.

1: Use any day where the sun shines and the moon is visible.
2: Hold a small ball in front of you in the direction of the moon (so that it is just in front or besides the moon for comparison)
3: Observe
Result: The small ball is exactly lit just like the moon, showing the same pattern of shadow as the moon.

I've done this myself aswell, and it ALWAYS shows this result.
I get it, it's not complicated, it is still objectively rubbish. If you hold a ball up at sunrise the, say, left side of it will be lit. If you hold it up at sunset, the right side will then be lit. Meanwhile name one time the side of the moon that's lit changes over the course of a day. Am I seriously going to need to repeat this again? To say nothing of the only significant part of Tumeni's claim, that the 'pattern of illumination' rather than mere direction would match. Feel free to show me a ball illuminated like a full moon or a new moon at sunrise, noon and sunset.


Yes, there is some correllation between the Sun and the moon (the same basic force is responsible for their movement, long story) but not to the degree you are proposing, and that experiment is nonsense.

You are not getting it.

The moon like the sun, moves in the sky.
You are not simply looking at a ball.
You are looking at a ball in the direction of the moon...

Just like you can look at the ball from any other angle, the ball lit from the left while looking from 1 side, and the ball lit from the right when looking from the opposite side...

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #86 on: July 08, 2018, 10:34:04 PM »
Do this at any time you can see the sun and the moon, and the light on the ball matches the light on the moon. I've done this personally, twice over the last three days. Quite a coincidence, for a non-illuminated superheated cylinder, wouldn't you say?

Doesn't it suggest to you that the ball and the moon are being illuminated by the same light source?
No, you haven't done that

Yes, I have. See below for the pictures of me doing it.


The moon does not magically change from having its left side lit to having its right side lit over the course of a day, while that would obviously happen with a ball lit by the Sun.

By the time the sun illuminates the 'other' side of the ball, the Moon is typically below the horizon, so the point is moot

Pics

https://imgur.com/a/Ci10Oo7

https://imgur.com/a/7DMpx3L

The first one was taken around 9am, with the Sun at ESE, and Moon at SSW, with roughly 90 degrees between them. So, by
the time the Sun was high in the sky, the Moon was out of sight beyond the western horizon.

Second one was later in the morning, a couple of days later.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2018, 11:02:20 PM by Tumeni »
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Offline rabinoz

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #87 on: July 08, 2018, 10:38:51 PM »
How exactly does that exist? Never seen the moon looking anything like that.
Well, I and many others have.
Do you take pleasure in completely ignoring every single question I ask you? This is the second thread.
How. Does. That. Exist?
I assumed that the term "earthshine photos" would be enough explanation. I'll do a bit of copy-n-paste in the hopes of getting a better explanation than I could hope to give:
Quote from: timeanddate.com
What Is Earthshine?
Earthshine is a dull glow which lights up the unlit part of the Moon because the Sun’s light reflects off the Earth's surface and back onto the Moon.

Why Does it Happen?
Earthshine occurs when sunlight reflects off the Earth's surface and illuminates the unlit portion of the Moon’s surface.

Since the light that generates earthshine is reflected twice – once off the Earth’s surface and then off the Moon’s surface, this light is much dimmer than the lit portion of the Moon.

This phenomenon is called planetshine when it occurs on other planets' moons.

Ability to Reflect Sunlight
Earthshine's brightness is also affected by the Moon's albedo. Albedo is a measurement of how much sunlight a celestial object can reflect. It is measured on a scale, which ranges from 0 to 1. An object that has albedo of 0 does not reflect sunlight and is perfectly dark. A celestial object with an albedo of 1 reflects all of the Sun's rays that reach it.

The Moon has an average albedo of 0.12, while the Earth's average albedo is 0.3. This means that the Moon reflects about 12% of the sunlight that reaches it. The Earth on the other hand, reflects about 30% of all the sunlight that hit its surface. Because of this, the Earth, when seen from the Moon would look about a 100 times brighter than a full Moon that is seen from the Earth.

Best Times to See Earthshine
Earthshine is most apparent one to five days before and after a New Moon. The best time of the day to see it is after sunset or before sunrise.
Sun and Moon in your city

From: timeanddate.com, What Is Earthshine?
And there are hundreds of photos of the moon lit partly by earthshine shown in a simple search on the internet, including this one taken during a total solar eclipse:

Total Solar Eclipse Earthshine
Taken by Alex Barnedt/1987A Photography on August 21, 2017 @ Boysen Reservoir, Wyoming

For details about how the photo was produced see: Total Solar Eclipse Earthshine
Photos like that certainly prove that the moon is the cause of solar eclipses.





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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #88 on: July 08, 2018, 11:05:34 PM »
Meanwhile name one time the side of the moon that's lit changes over the course of a day.

The side that is lit barely changes over the course of a day, but your orientation, or the orientation of any observer, does. 
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #89 on: July 08, 2018, 11:21:16 PM »
As for those photos, same point as I made to Rabinoz and to Bobby before, the moon does not look like that. I've seen gibbous, half, crescent, new, never lit-crescent-dimly-lit-gibbous.

Of course it doesn't look like that to the naked eye, for the photographers have used over, under-exposure and combination of images to render it in a form that can be accommodated by digital photography.

But whether it looks like that is not the point. The point is that whether it's illuminated by sunlight (first photo) or by reflected earthlight (second photo) the features all match. Agreed? 
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Tom Bishop "We are extremely popular and the entire world wants to talk to us. We have better things to do with our lives than have in depth discussions with every single curious person. You are lucky to get one sentence dismissals from us"

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #90 on: July 08, 2018, 11:37:57 PM »
If you hold up a ball to the Half Moon, with the sun in the sky too, then, according to textbook Globe Earth facts, the sun is at one point of a triangle, with you and the Moon at the other two. It's roughly an iscocelese triangle, with two sides of 93 million miles, and one side of 230k miles.

To all intents and purposes, you and the Moon are at the same place in space, with regard to the sun.

If you then observe that the angle of the lit portion of the ball and the lit portion of the Moon is the same, doesn't that suggest they are both being lit by the sun?
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Pete Svarrior "We are not here to directly persuade anyone ... You mistake our lack of interest in you for our absence."

Tom Bishop "We are extremely popular and the entire world wants to talk to us. We have better things to do with our lives than have in depth discussions with every single curious person. You are lucky to get one sentence dismissals from us"

Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #91 on: July 09, 2018, 12:48:39 AM »
Try this instead. The image is a touch small, but I don't see features changing at all here. This is a photo of the moon taken by the same photographer all over the course of a single lunar cycle.



The details on how/when/where these images were taken can be found here: http://astropixels.com/moon/phases2/Phases10-5x3.html

At a bare minimum I see no reasonable change in features across the middle row, at least those that are illuminated the whole time.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #92 on: July 09, 2018, 10:56:36 AM »
(Bobby said ) "You can present more crescent moon images if you like, and try to stump me; but I'll bet I'll easily be able to line up any crescent (except the slimmest of crescents) with the moon's features we seen when it's full."

And I'll be able to point out just as many features that aren't shared, as I've done.

Sorry, but I see nowhere in this thread where you've pointed out specific non-shared features. I invite you to present other Moon photos and indicate these features.
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Pete Svarrior "We are not here to directly persuade anyone ... You mistake our lack of interest in you for our absence."

Tom Bishop "We are extremely popular and the entire world wants to talk to us. We have better things to do with our lives than have in depth discussions with every single curious person. You are lucky to get one sentence dismissals from us"

Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #93 on: July 09, 2018, 11:20:14 AM »
(Bobby said ) "You can present more crescent moon images if you like, and try to stump me; but I'll bet I'll easily be able to line up any crescent (except the slimmest of crescents) with the moon's features we seen when it's full."

And I'll be able to point out just as many features that aren't shared, as I've done.

Sorry, but I see nowhere in this thread where you've pointed out specific non-shared features. I invite you to present other Moon photos and indicate these features.
I think he is just in denial.

He can't accept that the moon isn't illuminating by itself, even when the evidence is clearly there throughout all photographs taken of the moon through all its phases.

Offline model 29

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #94 on: July 09, 2018, 05:37:48 PM »
The moon does not magically change from having its left side lit to having its right side lit over the course of a day, while that would obviously happen with a ball lit by the Sun.
Why would that happen?  You don't understand the globe model very well.

Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #95 on: July 09, 2018, 09:19:54 PM »
Meanwhile name one time the side of the moon that's lit changes over the course of a day.

The side that is lit barely changes over the course of a day, but your orientation, or the orientation of any observer, does.

Here's a demonstration of diurnal libration, showing the face of the moon moving slightly over 4 hours.
https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/530699-parallax-libration-or-both/

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #96 on: July 09, 2018, 10:00:18 PM »
Finite geometry is easily illustrated:

This reply is about finite geometry. It does nothing to help bobby understand where the sun and the moon could be in relation to each other during a full moon.

That's right Bobby. You are using the Ancient Greeks Continuous Universe perspective model as a disproof

This reply is about perspective.  It does nothing to help bobby understand where the sun and the moon could be in relation to each other during a full moon.

Why would you start a thread and then complain about literally every answer you get? Tom clearly asked you to stop posting off-topic in another thread - that is by no means an indication that he'd rush to discuss the other subject with you. None of your complaints are valid, and the OP's approval for where a thread ends up going is irrelevant.

He is complaining because he asks a question about flat earth models and gets 30 answers from people who either believe the earth is round or are undecided and the response from people who believe the earth is flat does nothing to help him understand a full moon.



Tom/Pete/any other flat earther,


I've made an attempt to describe or create some sort of rough diagram of where the sun and the moon are in relation to each other when there is a full moon.  Do you agree/disagree with either of these, if so why?


Here is one where the moon is above the sun. The Sun is shining upwards illuminating a full circle of the moon from the viewers below.

From the wiki:
"When the moon is above the altitude of the sun the moon is fully lit and a Full Moon occurs."
https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Phases_of_the_Moon






Here is one where the moon could be at an equal or lower altitude if the light is refracting/bending back upwards



Can anyone help clear this up for me? And get back to the original post instead of debating if the moon rotates or not. The Wiki says that the moon is a higher altitude than the sun, the bendy light model says that the moon is a lower altitude than the sun and now there is a self lighting moon model. Isn't there a way that we can disprove one of these? I feel like so many different answers just makes things much more confusing.

should the self lit moon be added to the flat earth wiki? why is the bendy light model not at all represented on the flat earth wiki? Why has no one other than me attempted to diagram where the moon is in relation to the sun during a full moon.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #97 on: July 09, 2018, 11:25:34 PM »
Here's a demonstration of diurnal libration, showing the face of the moon moving slightly over 4 hours.
https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/530699-parallax-libration-or-both/
I love this one over a 30 day period:



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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #98 on: July 10, 2018, 03:02:55 PM »
Isn't there a way that we can disprove one of these?

Yes. Power up a spacecraft, and send it around or onto the Moon. Take photographs, perform other experiments upon it. Photograph the journey to and from.

Already done numerous times - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_missions_to_the_Moon


Why has no one other than me attempted to diagram where the moon is in relation to the sun during a full moon.

Apart from hundreds upon thousands of astronomers, who contributed their observations to thousands of textbooks?
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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Full Moon Impossible on Flat Earth?
« Reply #99 on: July 10, 2018, 07:16:06 PM »
Why has no one other than me attempted to diagram where the moon is in relation to the sun during a full moon.

Apart from hundreds upon thousands of astronomers, who contributed their observations to thousands of textbooks?
He's talking about a diagram of the full moon in relation to the sun over a flat earth.