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Messages - inquisitive

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1
Flat Earth Debate / Re: What is the flat earth position?
« on: October 18, 2017, 04:02:28 PM »
Does it give the right information for your location?

Maybe it does. I have not really checked. But the sun has made the same patterns across the sky for many years. Why do you think it is impossible to predict that pattern?
Please check.  And you agree the angle of the sun it gives is correct.

2
Flat Earth Debate / Re: What is the flat earth position?
« on: October 18, 2017, 02:27:55 PM »
My views of a bi-polar model may not be the majority, but they are not out of bounds. Both monopole and bi-polar models of the earth are represented in the historic Flat Earth Society Literature.

In fact, if you read the literature, after the South Pole was discovered in the early 1900's, the Society led by Lady Blount admitted that the monopole model was a mistake and the official Flat Earth model was updated to have two poles. Read their books and journals from around that time period.

The problem seems to be that people tend to stop reading after Earth Not a Globe and tend to see the Bi-Polar model as new and fringe, when it is actually rather old and from the time period when the society was a scientific research organization with a budget (mid 1800's - 1930's).
All this while we know the earth is round.

Did you check dateandtime.com?

Yes. We checked their website and even wrote to them and they refused to provide a source for their data or tell us anything about the model they are using, whether it was pattern or geometric-based, citing proprietary data.
Does it give the right information for your location?

3
Flat Earth Debate / Re: What is the flat earth position?
« on: October 18, 2017, 01:22:57 PM »
My views of a bi-polar model may not be the majority, but they are not out of bounds. Both monopole and bi-polar models of the earth are represented in the historic Flat Earth Society Literature.

In fact, if you read the literature, after the South Pole was discovered in the early 1900's, the Society led by Lady Blount admitted that the monopole model was a mistake and the official Flat Earth model was updated to have two poles. Read their books and journals from around that time period.

The problem seems to be that people tend to stop reading after Earth Not a Globe and tend to see the Bi-Polar model as new and fringe, when it is actually rather old and from the time period when the society was a scientific research organization with a budget (mid 1800's - 1930's).
All this while we know the earth is round.

Did you check dateandtime.com?

4
Flat Earth Debate / Re: Relativity Model
« on: October 14, 2017, 03:36:36 AM »
Quote from: AstralSentient
1.   There is no accurate map projection that conveys the surface, since space is non-Euclidean in this model and therefore can’t be mapped on 2D to complete scale.

...

6.   Satellites, space travel, Apollo moon landings, astronauts, and modern space exploration are all consistent with this model, as opposed to the mainstream FE concept of “The Conspiracy” with the faking of space travel.

...

7.   This FE model is most consistent with modern mainstream science and with general relativity.

Your problem is that you are assuming that all of these things are true, and have not debated with enough Round Earthers to see that their arguments are not really all that defendable.
Considering your counterpoints amount to sticking your fingers in your ears and going "LALALALA" I'm not sure you're in much of a position to talk about defendability of arguments. Not to mention the state of the FE 'arguments' that you present.

As I recall many of these conversations seem to end with me asking for very basic evidence of your claims and then me getting bored and leaving the thread. This has happened in the GPS debates, distance debates, sunlight time debates, perspective debates, etc. Round Earth Theory does not seem very strong if it can be stumped with a request for basic evidence to back up an assertion.

I know that you guys stay in the thread long after I have left and whine and demand that it doesn't matter, divert the subject, eventually declaring yourselves the winner of the debate; but the entire matter is fairly transparent to anyone paying attention.
Measured distances, sunrise and sunset, satellite dish alignment all prove the shape of the earth, as you know.

5
Flat Earth Q&A / Re: How does FE think that GPS works?
« on: October 10, 2017, 09:20:42 PM »
inquisitive

I don't work for the .gov, they are lucky I pay my taxes, otherwise don't call me and I won't call you type thing.

Now I did work at a covert CIA office for a short time, kinda spooky if you ask me. Then I sued the bastards for rippin off the little guy, made em return damn near $100mm. Fuckers won't forget me anytime soon.

Like Junker, I'm doing Gods work.....
So you can't provide technical details of how GPS works.

It's similar to the gyro in airplanes made by one .gov contractor. A need to know only type thang. You need, I'm satisfied with there are no satellites.
If I'm making an app for a phone where do I find the data output format?

I assume you are OK with satellites for TV reception as the dish angle proves their location.

I haven't paid for tv or watched it in 10 years. Now I think you could be wrong about this. I would expect they are given a specific area of the sky to send and receive digital packets from the .gov. I've already provided links to technical data available about picking these streams or grabbing them from the skywave or groundwave. All packets are identified with numbers so to make an area specific for a company is very reasonable for potential packet loss, causing jitter, delays ect. Again no sats, one can pic up these signals either going up or bouncing back down.
Totally untrue, but if you think you are correct then please provide links to technical documentation.  Satellite dish alignment has to be very precise, dishes point to locations over the equator, as you know.

6
Flat Earth Q&A / Re: How does FE think that GPS works?
« on: October 10, 2017, 08:54:38 PM »
inquisitive

I don't work for the .gov, they are lucky I pay my taxes, otherwise don't call me and I won't call you type thing.

Now I did work at a covert CIA office for a short time, kinda spooky if you ask me. Then I sued the bastards for rippin off the little guy, made em return damn near $100mm. Fuckers won't forget me anytime soon.

Like Junker, I'm doing Gods work.....
So you can't provide technical details of how GPS works.

It's similar to the gyro in airplanes made by one .gov contractor. A need to know only type thang. You need, I'm satisfied with there are no satellites.
If I'm making an app for a phone where do I find the data output format?

I assume you are OK with satellites for TV reception as the dish angle proves their location.

7
Flat Earth Q&A / Re: How does FE think that GPS works?
« on: October 10, 2017, 08:46:47 PM »
inquisitive

I don't work for the .gov, they are lucky I pay my taxes, otherwise don't call me and I won't call you type thing.

Now I did work at a covert CIA office for a short time, kinda spooky if you ask me. Then I sued the bastards for rippin off the little guy, made em return damn near $100mm. Fuckers won't forget me anytime soon.

Like Junker, I'm doing Gods work.....
So you can't provide technical details of how GPS works.

8
Flat Earth Q&A / Re: How does FE think that GPS works?
« on: October 10, 2017, 08:31:17 PM »

So to recap, J-man says it's either god bounces off of the dome or balloons and  Junker says to read the Wiki for GPS information where none exists.

Very informative.

Yep.  If you search the Wiki for "GPS" you get exactly one page: https://wiki.tfes.org/Space_Travel - which contains four broken links and nothing else.

If there was just one GPS system and it only worked in continental USA, then towers and balloons and such might work - but there are AT LEAST four different GPS-like systems out there (US, Russian, Chinese and European) and all four of them have world-wide coverage.  Do you see Chinese and Russian navigational towers studding the landscape in the USA?   Are there thousands of balloons from all four nations drifting languidly across our skies?

The "bouncing off of the ionosphere" approach cannot work for precision better than a few kilometers - and all four systems that we know of are accurate to within ten meters or so most of the time.

So I guess the Earth must be round.

qeek you should stop the deceit or maybe it's just ignorance? TV GPS radar all work off High Frequency waves now. You don't need satellites for Skywave, Groundwave or Line of Sight transmissions. Put the Kool-aid down and come join us in this brave new world that was discovered in 1921....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skywave

"In radio communication, skywave or skip refers to the propagation of radio waves reflected or refracted back toward Earth from the ionosphere, an electrically charged layer of the upper atmosphere. Since it is not limited by the curvature of the Earth, skywave propagation can be used to communicate beyond the horizon, at intercontinental distances."

"E-skip is a notable exception, where VHF signals including FM broadcast and VHF TV signals are frequently reflected to the Earth during late Spring and early Summer."

https://www.accessengineeringlibrary.com/browse/high-frequency-over-the-horizon-radar-fundamental-principles-signal-processing-and-practical-applications

High Frequency Over-the-Horizon Radar: Fundamental Principles, Signal Processing, and Practical Applications

Abstract: Written by a leading global expert on the topic, High Frequency Over-the-Horizon Radar provides in-depth coverage of the signal processing models and techniques that have significantly advanced OTH radar technology.

Conventional Processing

1010505Signal and data processing have long been recognized as key elements to the success of OTH radar (Headrick and Skolnik, 1974). Such systems are inherently required to operate in severe clutter, interference, and noise environments, where the power of a received target echo is typically several orders of magnitude lower than that of the disturbance signal. Here, signal processing refers to a sequence of steps that transform the in-phase and quadrature baseband data samples acquired by the analog-to-digital (A/D) converters in each receiver of a multi-channel system to complex-valued outputs in the canonical radar dimensions of group-range, beam direction, and Doppler frequency.

The Israeli's invented Voice over internet Protocol which is in fact the bases for the success of this HF model. To take analog packets smash them down to digital packets with individual ID and blow them all over the skies. Then suck them up with a huge vacuum cleaner, they automatically arrange in the proper order and a high tech switch is able to then send them (packets) to the processor to find your ass, listen in on ya, or send you reruns of Little House on the Prairie.

The storage facility in Utah to accumulate every digital packet ever processed is waiting for you. There is no escape.
All unrelated to how GPS works.  Please post links to GPS documentation.
I can't tell you thank you for playing because you haven't been paying attention. Back on the first page I provided this link that surveyors used for GPS.

https://www.e-education.psu.edu/geog160/node/1926

5.5 Land Surveying and Conventional Techniques for Measuring Positions on the Earth’s Surface

"You might wonder how a control network gets started. If positions are measured relative to other positions, what is the first position measured relative to? The answer is: the stars."

Remember? God did it.....

Now we've moved into GPS for purposes of Over-the-Horizon which you RE nut jobs should be enjoying. Doesn't require Sat's
No, the technical information for GPS systems please.  Like http://www.gps.gov/   Please list frequencies, codes, messages etc.

9
Flat Earth Q&A / Re: How does FE think that GPS works?
« on: October 10, 2017, 08:08:51 PM »

So to recap, J-man says it's either god bounces off of the dome or balloons and  Junker says to read the Wiki for GPS information where none exists.

Very informative.

Yep.  If you search the Wiki for "GPS" you get exactly one page: https://wiki.tfes.org/Space_Travel - which contains four broken links and nothing else.

If there was just one GPS system and it only worked in continental USA, then towers and balloons and such might work - but there are AT LEAST four different GPS-like systems out there (US, Russian, Chinese and European) and all four of them have world-wide coverage.  Do you see Chinese and Russian navigational towers studding the landscape in the USA?   Are there thousands of balloons from all four nations drifting languidly across our skies?

The "bouncing off of the ionosphere" approach cannot work for precision better than a few kilometers - and all four systems that we know of are accurate to within ten meters or so most of the time.

So I guess the Earth must be round.

qeek you should stop the deceit or maybe it's just ignorance? TV GPS radar all work off High Frequency waves now. You don't need satellites for Skywave, Groundwave or Line of Sight transmissions. Put the Kool-aid down and come join us in this brave new world that was discovered in 1921....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skywave

"In radio communication, skywave or skip refers to the propagation of radio waves reflected or refracted back toward Earth from the ionosphere, an electrically charged layer of the upper atmosphere. Since it is not limited by the curvature of the Earth, skywave propagation can be used to communicate beyond the horizon, at intercontinental distances."

"E-skip is a notable exception, where VHF signals including FM broadcast and VHF TV signals are frequently reflected to the Earth during late Spring and early Summer."

https://www.accessengineeringlibrary.com/browse/high-frequency-over-the-horizon-radar-fundamental-principles-signal-processing-and-practical-applications

High Frequency Over-the-Horizon Radar: Fundamental Principles, Signal Processing, and Practical Applications

Abstract: Written by a leading global expert on the topic, High Frequency Over-the-Horizon Radar provides in-depth coverage of the signal processing models and techniques that have significantly advanced OTH radar technology.

Conventional Processing

1010505Signal and data processing have long been recognized as key elements to the success of OTH radar (Headrick and Skolnik, 1974). Such systems are inherently required to operate in severe clutter, interference, and noise environments, where the power of a received target echo is typically several orders of magnitude lower than that of the disturbance signal. Here, signal processing refers to a sequence of steps that transform the in-phase and quadrature baseband data samples acquired by the analog-to-digital (A/D) converters in each receiver of a multi-channel system to complex-valued outputs in the canonical radar dimensions of group-range, beam direction, and Doppler frequency.

The Israeli's invented Voice over internet Protocol which is in fact the bases for the success of this HF model. To take analog packets smash them down to digital packets with individual ID and blow them all over the skies. Then suck them up with a huge vacuum cleaner, they automatically arrange in the proper order and a high tech switch is able to then send them (packets) to the processor to find your ass, listen in on ya, or send you reruns of Little House on the Prairie.

The storage facility in Utah to accumulate every digital packet ever processed is waiting for you. There is no escape.
All unrelated to how GPS works.  Please post links to GPS documentation.

10
Flat Earth Q&A / Re: Flat Earth view of longitude?
« on: October 01, 2017, 07:17:46 PM »
No - I precisely do NOT mean that.   I mean that when YOU come up with an idea about how something works in FE (like...I dunno...let's just pick: How Universal Acceleration works as an FET replacement for "gravity") - then you need to stop and think about how it works with other things that you've said about the FE - AND with common experiences that we all agree on...things like tides.

We don't agree on those experiences. I asked for observational reports about the sun, showing an example of where it would need to be in "two places at once" as you argued. You did not reply to my query, insisting that we need to "think critically" and assume the earth is a globe in all discussions, and that the need for observational reports should be dismissed and are not actually required.
You have failed to produce a diagram of the location of the sun as seen from multiple locations at the same time and to confirm that timeanddate.com is correct for your location.

This would help you determine the shape of the earth.

11
Flat Earth Q&A / Re: How does FE think that GPS works?
« on: September 30, 2017, 07:27:36 PM »
Defying Gravity is all CGI

That rhymes.


Satellites don't defy gravity and hover over the earth motionless, it's all an illusion and people buy it. TV signals can be delivered off towers or bounced off the dome.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I'll add to this post. Forget satellites, they are dreams. When you go buy expensive GPS systems for say construction one thing is always prevalent and that is this REMOTE station that runs on POWER at your job site or in the remote woods MUST be able to talk to the BASE station to get accurate positions. The satellite links is ridiculous, earth moving, 4 satellites moving and some chipset is going to give you a very accurate position from moving parts...hah dreams of my father

No it's called remote antenna position, home base and repeaters or towers. Done and done simple, no defying density
And navigation in the middle of an ocean?

And tv dish angles prove satellites.

https://www.e-education.psu.edu/geog160/node/1926

Dude you're so gullible. Read the provided link. Surveyors used "Fixed" positions and now wait for it...........

The "STARS"

Dem things GOD put up there to GPS ones self. Go Figure.

OMG Dish Network is looking at a moving satellite to give me grainy reception....duh
GPS receiver in my phone is showing 17 satellites, where are they?   A TV satellite is stationary relative to earth.  As you know.

12
Flat Earth Q&A / Re: How does FE think that GPS works?
« on: September 30, 2017, 07:02:23 PM »
Defying Gravity is all CGI

That rhymes.


Satellites don't defy gravity and hover over the earth motionless, it's all an illusion and people buy it. TV signals can be delivered off towers or bounced off the dome.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I'll add to this post. Forget satellites, they are dreams. When you go buy expensive GPS systems for say construction one thing is always prevalent and that is this REMOTE station that runs on POWER at your job site or in the remote woods MUST be able to talk to the BASE station to get accurate positions. The satellite links is ridiculous, earth moving, 4 satellites moving and some chipset is going to give you a very accurate position from moving parts...hah dreams of my father

No it's called remote antenna position, home base and repeaters or towers. Done and done simple, no defying density
And navigation in the middle of an ocean?

And tv dish angles prove satellites.

13
Flat Earth Q&A / Re: How does FE think that GPS works?
« on: September 30, 2017, 05:53:15 PM »
infinity/limits has never been my thing, really is interesting that it works that way. have never looked into special relativity, shits amazing

Anyways the cell tower thing doesnt strike me since ships still have navigation and gps coordinates. Still amazes me that the military just lets us use GPS for free. Weather balloons could make sense but they don't chill up there forever. helium leaks over time from what I know, but with higher quality balloons maybe it wouldnt? not sure. Thanks to all the explanations about the gravity thing!

There are over 1,800 weather balloons released EVERY SINGLE DAY....Now add just as many secret ones daily, you ever seen one?

 NOPE

4,000 everyday and you've never seen one.
GPS uses satellites. known and understood.  See documentation.

What about gravity? Satellites would fall back to earth like everything else does then stick to the surface like water and peoples. See documentation and facts.
TV ones stay in position.

14
Flat Earth Q&A / Re: How does FE think that GPS works?
« on: September 30, 2017, 05:27:08 PM »
infinity/limits has never been my thing, really is interesting that it works that way. have never looked into special relativity, shits amazing

Anyways the cell tower thing doesnt strike me since ships still have navigation and gps coordinates. Still amazes me that the military just lets us use GPS for free. Weather balloons could make sense but they don't chill up there forever. helium leaks over time from what I know, but with higher quality balloons maybe it wouldnt? not sure. Thanks to all the explanations about the gravity thing!

There are over 1,800 weather balloons released EVERY SINGLE DAY....Now add just as many secret ones daily, you ever seen one?

 NOPE

4,000 everyday and you've never seen one.
GPS uses satellites. known and understood.  See documentation.

15
Flat Earth Q&A / Re: Flat Earth view of longitude?
« on: September 30, 2017, 05:04:19 PM »
Ah - so during the winter, in the Northern hemisphere, the sun sets in the South.   Weird that I never saw that happening...like EVER.

Actually, the sunset ranges from the North-West to the South-West throughout the year.

Quote
Also, we now that the sun is vertically overhead all along the equator around the Equinox...you can't explain how the sun teleports from the western edge to the east - or how it can simultanously be daylight in the eastern and western pacific.

Why would it teleport? You are assuming that it must match perfectly with the globe earth model.

What observations can you quote showing that the sun is over the equator at all times during the equinox?

Quote
You also can't explain why airline flights from Sydney Australia to Santiago Chile fly EAST from Australia and not WEST over Africa as your map suggests.

How come the NewZealanders (who's poor little country has been stretched until it's wider than the whole of Europe) see the sun in the winter when it's perpetual night in antarctica.

I could keep this up all day.  This map is UTTERLY useless.   It's crap even by FE standards (and that's saying a lot).

The one skill EVERYONE here needs is "Critical Thinking" - when you come up with an idea, don't be satisfied that it make one thing right (Hooray!  We have an antarctica!) - you have to look at everything that's going on everywhere and ask yourself "Does this map explain EVERYTHING we know to be true?" - if it doesn't, then it should never leave your desk.

The problem is that your "everything we know to be true" demands that we assume that the earth is round; and you have not provided any data to show why we should accept the various assumptions you have presented to be correct.
timeanddate.com will help you find the position of the sun during the equinox. Try it.

16
Quote
Why should TFES care about this?   Well, it'll pass overhead a large fraction of the earth (between 58 degrees North and 58 degrees South) and with just a ham radio, you can confirm for yourself that satellites actually exist by communicating with one directly

How does such communication confirm that the satellite is in orbit around a globe?
Do you understand how satellite tv works?

17
Flat Earth Debate / Re: Flat Earth Map Should Be Easy
« on: September 30, 2017, 05:59:51 AM »
*ALL* modern airliners fly on autopilot for 99% of the time.  They MIGHT come off autopilot for a few minutes on takeoff and landing, in emergency situations, that kind of thing...but most of the time the autopilot flies the plane on all long distance routes.

The autopilot controls the speed to very high precision - so you're really talking nonsense here - just as you did when you claimed that newly designed airplane speeds are measured by test pilots rather than being designed into the airplane at the outset.

The autopilot controls the speed as it relates to groundspeed. Groundspeed relies on a Round Earth coordinate system. All groundspeed methodologies use a Round Earth coordinate system for ground references.

Quote
We have a couple of people here who are airline pilots - and at least one person who's an expert on flight simulation (which is all about this stuff).

Airliners fly at VERY constant speeds - and the distinction between air speed and ground speed - while important - is cross-checked in half a dozen ways by the various flight instruments.

It is not possible to accurately get speed without some kind of external reference like the ground. Any instrument which attempts to measure speed by measuring the amount of air passing by the craft is unreliable. There is no such thing as a reliable odometer for an airplane.

Quote
What you're saying might have been true 40 years ago (maybe)...but for sure it's not true now.

So - fine, go ahead and talk authoritatively about the Flat Earth if you wish - but every single time you've said *anything* about how airplanes work or how they are operated, you make an idiot of yourself.

You have provided zero rebuttal, other than "you are wrong".
Where is the issue with measuring distances?  Show how you would devise a system and what coordinate system we should be using.

Have you checked timeanddate.com yet?

18
Flat Earth Q&A / Re: flat earth hypothesis
« on: September 24, 2017, 11:00:55 PM »
i have heard allot about perspective. when a ship sails far enough away from a person viewing it, the ship appear to sink under the water or the ship is hidden around the curve of the earth.

here is my question. If we tie a rope between two ships and one heads west and one heads east at what point(s) would the rope become submerged due to the curvature of the earth?
Nothing to do with perspective, check the definition.

19
Flat Earth Debate / Re: Burden of proof
« on: September 24, 2017, 10:50:12 PM »
That is an incorrect interpretation of burden of proof, in this case.

The Flat Earth Society claims the Earth is flat. I and others come to post on the forums to dispute that claim.

Yes. And we tell you to look out your window, which is evidence of that claim, and you then proceed to throw a fit, unable to actually justify your beliefs further.
I look out of my window and see the sun set knowing my friend to the west of me sees it set later. 

How is your timeanddate.com comparision going?

20
Flat Earth Debate / Re: Debunking "Altered perspective"
« on: September 24, 2017, 10:47:01 PM »
A) Perspective is not a property of the universe. It's an emergent property of our eyes and how we view things. "All object experience perspective" is patently false.

P1. Cameras experience the same perspective we do.
P2. Cameras are objects.
C. Objects experience perspective.

P1. Cameras without lenses experience perspective
C. Perspective is not a lens phenomenon

Quote
B) Show us your evidence that perspective can account for a change of 20 DEGREES in the sun. Reminder: Neither the sun nor the moon are proofs for this.

Railroad tracks in a perspective scene are not an infinite distance away when they meet the horizon. This shows that your model is wrong.

Quote
C) Your "rules for perspective" are based on the assumption the Earth is flat.

The existence of a horizon is based on REALITY. If you attempt to create a model of the earth of any shape you need to have the capability of a horizon. if you cannot do this then your model is insufficient and does not properly account for all variables involved.
You are still clinging onto your very own definition of perspective.  It's not clear what you are trying to prove.

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