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Messages - inquisitive

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1
Flat Earth Debate / Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« on: September 19, 2017, 10:24:52 PM »
Tom, does perspective rearrange the actual positions of real object?

It can put 3 inch tall railroad tracks at your 5'8" eye level. What do you think?
It does not, and you know it does not.

2
Flat Earth Debate / Re: Pinhole cameras, Sunsets and FET perspective.
« on: September 19, 2017, 10:22:33 PM »
Any explanation of sunset has to also explain sunrise at another location at the same time and every measurement and observation in between.

Tom has not disagreed with any of the data published in timeanddate.com

3
Flat Earth Debate / Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« on: September 19, 2017, 02:37:21 AM »
Then tell us what is incorrect about my diagram?   The sun is at the correct height - the horizontal distance is appropriate for noon (at the right) and sunset (towards the left).

Watch the video. It goes over the error of those scenes. You have presented a non-perspective side view scene which takes place outside of the universe. It does not properly account for perspective. Perspective is not seen that way. Perspective is seen from a view where everything intersects with the vanishing point. You are presenting a geometric scene which disregards empirical perspective. Under your scheme it is impossible for any receding body to ever intersect with a vanishing point -- a scenario which is not seen to occur.

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Reality allows use to draw side-views does it not?   So do tell which elements of my diagram are incorrect.   All of the diagrams you usually post are side-views...aren't I allowed a side-view?

Side-view can be fine, but your scene does not properly account for perspective. The author of the video I embedded provides a more accurate side-view depiction of perspective.

The error with your illustration, specifically, is that the cloud would see the sun at the horizon near the vanishing point, due to the perspective that is not properly depicted, not high above it. The light is coming from the side, not above.
You still ignore explaining the view of the sun from multiple positions and different times of day.

4
Flat Earth Debate / Re: New to the idea, one simple question. WHY
« on: September 17, 2017, 04:39:12 PM »
What is there to gain by deceiving the population into thinking the world is a globe?

This question gets asked here almost every week.

You could go back and look at the many threads with some of the different ideas.
But I think Macbeth says it best "Power corrupts but absolute power corrupts absolutely"

People are weened into the conspiracy at high levels and the underlings don't need to know.
It wouldn't even surprise me if most Presidents and Prime Ministers were kept in the dark.
That's not in their job description, they exist to fulfil the agenda of the party they represent.
The real money is with the corporations and the bankers, they have the means to accomplish their will.
Most of us are bright enough to work out the shape of the earth and how we receive broadcasts.

5
Flat Earth Debate / Re: Disproof: Why doesn't the southern hemiplane freeze?
« on: September 15, 2017, 09:39:19 PM »
The papers are not specifically about showing the accuracy of SOFA or IAU equations. Please copy and paste any relevant sections rather than directing us to a bunch of random articles which contain the word IAU.
Have you tested timeanddate.com yet?

6
Flat Earth Debate / Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« on: September 15, 2017, 07:35:08 PM »
Psst, I believe he was talking about Duniya's
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:D:D
in this instance. ;) But a nice break is exactly what I'll be taking shortly myself.
Hmmm...maybe you're right...I've not been banned yet - and it really would be nice to take a break!
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As a small on topic bit, Tom has mentioned the 'squished up photons' explanation (partly) for his perspective bit before. I'm still not sure how that can be a thing along with being able to see farther when you go up in height thought to be honest. It seems the idea should have a viewing limit of some form where you can't see past 'X' distance.

Oh - really?   I vaguely recall something about "The sun's photons are too bright to grab onto the air"...but that's not the right quote.

The FE folks already have a need for "can't see past 'X'" to explain why you can't see Mount Everest from an airplane.

But photons fighting to get into your eye is pretty hilarious...makes you wonder how telescopes and microscopes work.

It think the deep problem here is that Tom is mentally incapable of seeing "perspective" as a mere phenomenon caused by the focussing of straight-line-traveling-light through a small aperture.

His utter failure to respond to the simplest of geometric explanation in the Pinhole Camera thread is quite telling...and his response to this thread merely amplifies the depth of his confusion.

My diagram clearly shows that no matter how you flim-flam and handwave - the light from the sun can ONLY get under the cloud by bending through an angle of more than 30 degrees.   

All mention of weird perspective and crowding of photons notwithstanding - the light has to get from A to B without curving and it can't.

That means that the sun ain't where Tom thinks it is - and if (as he says) light travels in straight lines - the only POSSIBLE place is buried a few hundred miles underground someplace over in the next continent!
Tom has found the word perspective and believes people will believe his use of it, or not.

7
Flat Earth Debate / Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« on: September 15, 2017, 07:33:19 PM »
But in FET it isn't...it's still physically, 30 degrees up in the sky...according to what you've been telling us about sunsets, it only LOOKS like it's on the horizon because of some "weird" perspective thing...right?

No. Light from objects on the horizon are coming in horizontally. The horizon is at eye level and 90 degrees from zenith, and this is where the light is coming from.

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If light travels in straight lines (which I agree it does) then how does the light from the sun come down UNDER the clouds, then back up again to light up the undersides?

It's not coming from the underside of the clouds. The clouds, or potion of the clouds, are simply at a lower altitude where sunset is occurring. The light is coming in from the side from the horizon.

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Look carefully at the image from the airplane...you can CLEARLY see that a particular cloud is grey on top and orange below - and fading gently from one color to the other.

The top of the grey clouds are at a higher altitude than the orange clouds.
Please provide a diagram to explain in detail.

8
Flat Earth General / Re: Flat earth is not a viable model
« on: September 15, 2017, 05:17:10 PM »
to Stinky
If you draw a circle on a paper;  it is flat.....    unless you draw a 3D sphere.   So circles by definition are flat.   I gave  2 scriptures saying the earth is a circle.   If you look at the picture I posted, you can tell the bottom is not flat like the top is.  But we don't know whether the bottom is flat or not.
Getting real ---  we got mountains - so we can say the earth is not flat like Kansas is flat.   But it isn't a sphere.  The other scriptures I gave say the earth does not move.   The sphere theory won't work without earth 24 hour rotation and going around the sun annually
Observations and measurements, including satellite operation and the path of the sun, prove the earth is a sphere

9
Flat Earth Debate / Re: Could satellite tracking prove the Earth is a globe?
« on: September 10, 2017, 05:49:47 AM »
Why not just track the sun?

10
Science & Alternative Science / Re: Chemtrails
« on: September 09, 2017, 09:12:30 PM »
The ones I see are scheduled flights in particular weather conditions.

11
Flat Earth Debate / Re: Disproof of FE via calculating height of the sun
« on: September 07, 2017, 09:56:07 PM »
Perspective is about drawing and how things look in the distance, nor relevant here.

12
Flat Earth Q&A / Re: Viewing angle to sun at sunrise, sunset
« on: September 07, 2017, 07:39:33 PM »
I have seen the FE animation with the sun&moon spinning around the north pole with a circle of lighted area beneath the sun. I am trying to look at a specific spot on the globe into order to judge the angle to the sun from that point when the terminator line crosses and that spot becomes dark in the evening.

The animations I have seen are of small scale, and I can get a general idea of the direction. I wish to find something more specific. Where is there a resource for this information? I want to enter a location and date in order to get the compass direction to the sunrise/sunset and the times for that date/location. Basically looking for something based on the math behind the map, rather than just the animation.

This formula will calculate the degrees North from due East (sunrise) and due West (sunset) during the vernal and autumnal equinox. It is a simple trigonometric formula based on the Unipolar Flat Earth Map.

=ARCTAN((90 - Latitude)*0.0111)* 57.3

Latitude – Use positive values for latitudes north of the equator and negative values for latitudes south of the equator.

In the Round Earth Model, the sun will rise due East and set due West during the the equinox.

During the equinox:
1) the sun will track directly over the equator.
2) day length is the same (12 hours) over the entire planet.
Source and detail of your formula please.

Formula to calculate sunrise, sunset position for the unipolar flat Earth model.

During the equinox:
   1) The sun will follow a path directly over the equator.
   2) Day length at all latitudes is 12 hours.
        3) Sunrise and sunset for the round Earth model will be due East and due West at all latitudes.

Assume you are 0° N, 0° W – South of Ghana, Africa. (Map below)
At solar noon the sun is directly overhead.
In 6 hours (sunset) the sun will travel to 0° N, 90° W (1/4 the circumference of the equator).

The deviation (N) of the sun from due West at sunset can be calculated by:

Deviation (N) from due West = arctan (D1/D2)
   D1= distance from observer to North Pole = 10,000 km
   D2 = distance from sunset position (equator) to North Pole = 10,000 km

   Arctan (10,000/10,000) = 0.785 radians
                  = 0.785*57.3
                       = 45°

D1 was modified to accommodate any latitude.
   D1 = (90 - Latitude)*111.1 km
      Latitude = latitude of observer (for South latitude used negative value).
      111.1 = km/degree latitude (10,000 km / 90°)
   
   D2 = 10,000 km

Deviation (N°) from due West = Arctan ((90 - Latitude) * 111.1 / 10,000) * 57.3
             = Arctan ((90 - Latitude) * 0.01111) * 57.3

The same formula can be used to calculate the deviation (N) due East at sunrise.
Are your results consistent with actual observations and those in timeanddate.com?

13
Flat Earth Debate / Re: Disproof of FE via calculating height of the sun
« on: September 07, 2017, 03:40:29 PM »
Let's cut our distance in half, going from 3000 miles away and a 45° angle, to 1500 miles away, and a 67.5° angle. This gives us a sun height of... 3621 miles. Oh. Well that's quite a bit different isn't it? Well how about if we go the other direction. Halfway from 45° to 0°, giving us an angle of 22.5° and a distance of 4500 miles. This gives us a sun height of.... 1864 miles. Oh dear, that's even more out of whack than our first one.

Who went out and made those observations of where the sun is at those latitudes on that day?

That's how latitudes work, and latitudes are evenly spaced across the Earth. Your original author made no mention of measuring his 45° angle or the distance to said location. In fact, he uses 1° of declination being equal to 60 miles it would seem. Perhaps I should redo this using his more exact number of 2700 miles instead of the wiki's listed 3000 miles? Although I doubt that will change the results.

I'm simply using the exact same assumptions used in the reference material on the wiki.

Actually since he gives us some more precise measurements, let's test those. At 67.5° we get a distance of 1350 between it and the equator, and a sun height of 3259 compared to his 2700. At 22.5 we get a distance of 4050 miles to the equator, and a sun height of 1677 to his 2700. These don't appear to be working any better Tom.

If your argument is not based on any real observations, why should we conclude that you are correct?
Says he who will not make his own observations.

14
Flat Earth Q&A / Re: Viewing angle to sun at sunrise, sunset
« on: September 07, 2017, 08:37:27 AM »
I have seen the FE animation with the sun&moon spinning around the north pole with a circle of lighted area beneath the sun. I am trying to look at a specific spot on the globe into order to judge the angle to the sun from that point when the terminator line crosses and that spot becomes dark in the evening.

The animations I have seen are of small scale, and I can get a general idea of the direction. I wish to find something more specific. Where is there a resource for this information? I want to enter a location and date in order to get the compass direction to the sunrise/sunset and the times for that date/location. Basically looking for something based on the math behind the map, rather than just the animation.

This formula will calculate the degrees North from due East (sunrise) and due West (sunset) during the vernal and autumnal equinox. It is a simple trigonometric formula based on the Unipolar Flat Earth Map.

=ARCTAN((90 - Latitude)*0.0111)* 57.3

Latitude – Use positive values for latitudes north of the equator and negative values for latitudes south of the equator.

In the Round Earth Model, the sun will rise due East and set due West during the the equinox.

During the equinox:
1) the sun will track directly over the equator.
2) day length is the same (12 hours) over the entire planet.
Source and detail of your formula please.

15
Flat Earth Debate / Re: Distance debate based on poll results
« on: September 06, 2017, 09:39:35 PM »
What are we judging?

The debate is what we are judging.

I've got basic structure for a debate, along with grading rubric for the judge along with judging criteria to help guide what is being looked for. I would suggest 3 judges, one confirmed RE, one confirmed FE, and one as neutral as possible. Scores can be averaged among what the three give, though each should be attempting to be as impartial as possible. I would suggest in addition the thread should be highly moderated with the notice on the front that anyone posting other than Tom/3D will have the post deleted and warned they will receive a ban of length so they will not return before the period for debate is over if found posting a second time. Debate period to be 1, maybe 2 weeks depending on if we want a set number of 'rounds' or just let them go for a while and declare time for closing statements the day or so before the final day.
Quality or proven factual accuracy?

16
Flat Earth Q&A / Re: Viewing angle to sun at sunrise, sunset
« on: September 06, 2017, 04:32:06 PM »
I have seen the FE animation with the sun&moon spinning around the north pole with a circle of lighted area beneath the sun. I am trying to look at a specific spot on the globe into order to judge the angle to the sun from that point when the terminator line crosses and that spot becomes dark in the evening.

The animations I have seen are of small scale, and I can get a general idea of the direction. I wish to find something more specific. Where is there a resource for this information? I want to enter a location and date in order to get the compass direction to the sunrise/sunset and the times for that date/location. Basically looking for something based on the math behind the map, rather than just the animation.
timeanddate.com

17
Flat Earth Debate / Re: Distance debate based on poll results
« on: September 06, 2017, 02:41:01 PM »
I'll take your offer of "first post". I'll let you guys decide on what subject to discuss. Nothing is off the table.
Distances is good.  Nothing like measurements to define the shape of an object.

18
Flat Earth Q&A / Re: no offense
« on: September 05, 2017, 01:22:52 PM »
Hello my name is Miguel, from Ushuaia Argentina. I am very interisting with this forum, but I have to ask why does day time always seem longer than the night in here?
Today:
Daylight
08:04 – 19:00
10 hours, 56 minutes

19
Flat Earth Q&A / Re: no offense
« on: September 05, 2017, 01:20:49 PM »
timeanddate.com gives sunrise, sunset and time of daylight.

20
Flat Earth Debate / Re: Using airline flight data.
« on: September 04, 2017, 09:48:29 PM »
But over a 3,000 mile airplane flight - you still only get a 10 foot error at start and end - so the percentage error is incredibly small.

Where has this been demonstrated?

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But Tom's insistence on using this one scientific paper is indicative of desperation.   The content of the paper is utterly inapplicable to long distance measurements that we are discussing here.   We understand why standard GPS is hopelessly poor for things like sporting events - and can easily explain why those errors don't matter for airline flights...which is what we're actually talking about here.

I didn't bring up that paper as evidence, you guys did.
Here is your opportunity.

Is timeanddate.com correct for you and what equipment are you needing to derermine the shape of the earth?

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