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### Messages - inquisitive

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1
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: Why are all FE models discs?
« on: January 01, 2023, 11:02:33 PM »
The WGS83 model gives all the details you need.  Also the angles of dishes for broadcast satellites.

WGS83 takes data from small flat maps: https://wiki.tfes.org/World_Geodetic_System_1984

I haven't seen a study of triangulation of satellites to prove that we live on a globe. This is an assumption that such studies exist.

Your position is flawed. Unless they did something like walking around with a digital measuring wheel and physically measured the earth with a tactile method, there were assumptions in measuring long distances.

Actually, they generally used chains back in the day.
surveyor’s chain, also called Gunter’s chain, measuring device and arbitrary measurement unit still widely used for surveying in English-speaking countries. Invented by the English mathematician Edmund Gunter in the early 17th century, Gunter’s chain is exactly 22 yards (about 20 m) long and divided into 100 links. In the device, each link is a solid bar. Measurement of the public land systems of the United States and Canada is based on Gunter’s chain. An area of 10 square chains is equal to one acre.

This is equivalent to saying that surveyors had rulers. Maybe they did have rulers. But it doesn't prove that they measured long distances with them.

If they used a digital measuring wheel then that would also mean making an assumption - that the wheel is calibrated correctly and accurate.

Your objection to “assumptions” is very selective. The Bishop Experiment makes assumptions, Rowbotham made assumptions. You have no issues with that. Only when an experiment or technique yields results you don’t like do you switch to the skeptical context and start objecting to “assumptions”.

You have previously agreed that GPS can accurately give your longitude and latitude. How can it do that without distances being known? Leaving aside how that would work in the middle of an ocean, as it demonstrably does, which rules out any land based solution

There are ways to test whether a digital measuring wheel is calibrated and accurate. This would be more of an experiment where the conditions can be controlled.

Other methods are not as controlled, and assume a lot about astronomy or the weather.

Latitude and Longitude are references ultimately based on astronomical phenomena. The Latitude is based on the angle of the North Star in the sky (for the NH) and Longitude is related to clocks and time zones. You might know your Lat/Lon coordinate point, but this would do nothing to show the distance between those points. This is how GPS, and formally the land-based LORAN, operate. The station knows its own coordinates and it is giving you your own coordinates based on triangulation.

Much of professional GPS and GIS work, by the way, assumes that the earth is flat.

From https://www.e-education.psu.edu/geog862/book/export/html/1644

“ Welcome to Lesson Six of this GPS course. And this time, we'll be talking about two coordinate systems. And I have a little bit of discussion concerning heights. We've touched on that a little bit. Now these coordinate systems that we're going to discuss are plane coordinate systems based upon the fiction that the earth is flat, which, of course, immediately introduces distortion. However, much of GIS work—and GPS work as well—is done based upon this presumption. ”

The fact that the calculations to align a satellite dish actually work and are based on a round earth should satisfy you. The locations of geostationary satellites are well documentated.  Dishes near the equator point up around 90⁰. Those north and south at a lower angle.

2
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: Why are all FE models discs?
« on: December 31, 2022, 10:12:30 PM »
Your position is flawed. Unless they did something like walking around with a digital measuring wheel and physically measured the earth with a tactile method, there were assumptions in measuring long distances.
The WGS83 model gives all the details you need.  Also the angles of dishes for broadcast satellites.

3
##### Flat Earth Community / Re: What makes the shape of the Earth obvious?
« on: May 07, 2022, 05:34:20 PM »
The WGS84 model is the answer.

4
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: ECHOSTAR (Private Satellite) Earth footage?
« on: April 02, 2022, 12:13:55 PM »

The video is a timelapse of individual frames, yes. So it could be regarded as such.

The original broadcast was a live stream, as far as I can gather.

Correct. Action80 would rather argue semantics than actually read what I said. It was a broadcast but they may as well be called “photographs” because it was every 5 minutes. Or call it footage. I don’t care.

Again:
All the POSSIBLE evidence that could exist for space travel and a globe… DOES exist. It doesn’t get much better than what we have: literal photographs, videos, jobs, engineering etc.

You have already decided that no evidence will make you happy, because all the possible evidence does in fact exist.
You accept the evidence, I do not, for the reasons I presented.

You seem awfully unhappy over rejection.

Hopefully, you can move on in your life.
What are the errors with WGS83?

5
##### Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Sydney to Santiago Flight path
« on: April 01, 2022, 07:57:37 PM »
Try to actually book a ticket OP. You'll see that they will always want to take you along a route that makes sense on a flat earth and no sense on a globe.

Perth (Australia) ---------> Buenos Aires (Argentina)

Auckland (New Zealand) ---------> Cape town (Africa)

forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=19211.0
This implies an accurate and agreed map and model of the earth that shows it is flat.  Where is it?  What about WGS83?

6
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: ECHOSTAR (Private Satellite) Earth footage?
« on: March 31, 2022, 09:43:15 PM »
I can't see how they would work as they do if the earth was flat.
Maybe you need to go learn some things then.

7
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: ECHOSTAR (Private Satellite) Earth footage?
« on: March 31, 2022, 06:29:47 PM »
I wish you "two," would make up your mind.

What? You just asked him what he saw, and that’s what it looked like, and he gave you his answer.

Yes, it is radiation bombarding the lens. Like I said, this something you can easily recreate on earth. This isn’t us “making up our mind”. You’re running out of straws to grasp at here.
The entire video can be recreated here on earth, glad to see you can admit that.

When you RE have a firm grasp on all the stuff, let us here at FE know.

We'll be happy to listen then.

I guess there is nothing else to chat about then.

RE comes here to FE and asks the typical question, "How does FE explain this?" or "How does FE explain that?"

Turns out you RE have no solid, definitive explanation at all.

I am not grasping at any straws, just pointing out the typically weak stuff posted here by RE adherents.
Why?
I can't see how they would work as they do if the earth was flat.

8
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: ECHOSTAR (Private Satellite) Earth footage?
« on: March 31, 2022, 05:30:36 PM »
I wish you "two," would make up your mind.

What? You just asked him what he saw, and that’s what it looked like, and he gave you his answer.

Yes, it is radiation bombarding the lens. Like I said, this something you can easily recreate on earth. This isn’t us “making up our mind”. You’re running out of straws to grasp at here.
The entire video can be recreated here on earth, glad to see you can admit that.

When you RE have a firm grasp on all the stuff, let us here at FE know.

We'll be happy to listen then.

I guess there is nothing else to chat about then.

RE comes here to FE and asks the typical question, "How does FE explain this?" or "How does FE explain that?"

Turns out you RE have no solid, definitive explanation at all.

I am not grasping at any straws, just pointing out the typically weak stuff posted here by RE adherents.

9
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« on: March 26, 2022, 10:24:40 PM »
One pilot over 45 years, 10-15 commercial airline emergency landings. So in his career alone, he had almost matched the number of emergency landings your wedding photographer cites. Do the math.

My math is that you didn't bother to provide any assessment on where those emergency landings were and simply assume that they favor your preferred model.

Quote
The map in the wiki, obviously.

There are multiple maps and layouts for the bi-polar model in the wiki. I would suggest you review - https://wiki.tfes.org/Bi-Polar_Model

Both of these have differences between the map you posted. It also clearly says on that page that there is no Bi-Polar map and that these are examples of a possible layout.

Quote
I've done the analysis, it doesn't match reality. What has your analysis shown?

The fact that the emergency landing occurred in Alaska and not Hawaii still makes more sense on that particular map. If the route hugged the coasts of Asia and North America in the Pacific Ocean, it would still make sense for an emergency landing in Alaska and not Hawaii.

10
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« on: March 26, 2022, 01:31:03 PM »
You posted a bunch of reasons why flights might be diverted, but zero reasons for why they would be diverted to a place that would make a straight line between the destinations on a Flat Earth Azimuthal map.
You've completely failed to comprehend Gonzo's list. This is not a "bunch of reasons why a flight might be diverted".  It's a (non-exhaustive) list of factors that an aircraft commander must consider when deciding which airport he/she should divert to; his point is that it will not necessarily be the nearest, or more obvious to a layman.

Added to that, a close-to great-circle flightpath, particularly in the northern hemisphere, is not necessarily mutually exclusive with a polar azimuthal flat-world map.

None of that explains why the flights make emergency landings in spots that make straight line paths on a Flat Earth Azimuthal map.
Please provide a link to a agreed Flat Earth Azimuthal map so we can check.

11
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« on: March 26, 2022, 12:08:07 PM »
In-flight diversions are a lot more complex than just diverting to the ‘nearest airport’, as some (including the author of that ‘book’) seem to think.

Most international airlines use a service based in Phoenix, AZ called MedLink MedAire. This is a 24/7 operation staffed by ER doctors which is the first port of call for aircraft in the air when there’s a sick passenger.
They will advise the airline on the best course of action.
Factors that need to be considered in choosing a diversion airport:
•   If it’s a medical diversion, is the patient stable? Is it every second counts?
•   Medical care facilities at the airport, and wider area
•   Runway length, runway strength, taxiway strength, anticipated aircraft landing weight
•   Weather now and forecast
•   Air traffic control provision
•   Airport fire fighting and rescue cover
•   Fuel and aircraft servicing provision (hydraulic fuel, lubricants, steps to reach the aircraft, baggage facilities, towing capability)
•   Does the airline have contracts in place with companies at the proposed diversion airport?
•   Engineer/mechanic provision
•   Flight crew duty hours
•   Relief crew position
•   Passenger services (immigration/customs)
•   Accommodation for crew and passengers
•   Distance from aircraft (to be comfortable for passengers, most airliners require about 10nm for every 3000ft of altitude. The descent rate could be increased somewhat if it was an emergency, but you’re still talking nearly 100nm from 35,000ft).
•   Passengers on board (do they need visas to land at proposed diversion? Will they be kept on board for hours while the situation is sorted out?).
•   Are there vulnerable passengers on board (i.e. people whom one country would be very keen to get their hands on? (for example the relatively recent incident over Belarus)) .
•   Political concerns (i.e. A US flight might go another 20-30nm to avoid diverting to Iran and making it to UAE).
These are factors I have just come up with, and no doubt there are many more to be considered.

To second guess why a crew made a decision to divert to a particular airport with no knowledge of most of these factors (as the 'book' does) is naive in the extreme.

Happy to answer any questions on the above, if I can!

You posted a bunch of reasons why flights might be diverted, but zero reasons for why they would be diverted to a place that would make a straight line between the destinations on a Flat Earth Azimuthal map.
Please provide a link to an/the agreed Flat Earth Azimuthal map to discuss.

12
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« on: March 25, 2022, 08:02:23 PM »
Quite.

The fact that FR24 doesn't present ADS-B location data there doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. It just means they've made a commercial decision not to pay for it.

I see the data as part of my job, certainly from flights over the N. Atlantic.
Yeah, you see the data as part of your job.

And it doesn't include data from significant regions.

And, other than some internet jockey making a ridiculous claim, "government could not or would not interfere with that data!" there is no evidence that the government could or would not interfere.

I did look at that very nice PowerPoint slide show from ADS-B marketers.

Fancy, but likely false. Ground-based transponders are still operational (and still maintained for dependable operation) located all across the flat earth, performing the exact same functions.
How does GPS work in a flat earth model and received by aircraft far from land?

13
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« on: March 25, 2022, 02:25:31 PM »
Does it stem from this?

Quote
They do not even bother posting fake real time data of FR24 for these supposed AU to SA flights, so the claim gubment cannot fake any of it, or even all of it, at the exact same time, is just nonsense.
Which was confirmed by SteelyBob.

No real-time data.

Which means there are no real-time flights taking place at the time where real-time data is not posted.
However:

Aireon LLC is a joint venture between NAV CANADA and Iridium to finance, develop, deploy and operate a global solution for tracking and monitoring aircraft anywhere in the world by using spacebased ADS-B receivers

14
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« on: March 25, 2022, 02:21:06 PM »

15
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: ECHOSTAR (Private Satellite) Earth footage?
« on: March 24, 2022, 08:36:10 PM »
It is not governments nor institutions that pass judgement on scientific claims but the work of other scientists, i.e. peer-review.  Further now, as opposed to in 1920's we have all the evidence of space travel.  To claim a work published only in the popular press 100 years ago somehow proves all of space travel (including the things we all can observe working, like GPS, sat TV, etc) must be false, seems quite ridiculous to me.

In the 1920's government connected information was looked upon with skepticism. There were a lot of questionable medical experiments conducted by the federal government, forced sterilization of the disabled, questionable narratives about races, etc. If the government claimed something it might or might not be credible, and was generally untrusted. The government has had a tough time with honesty and integrity.

It has always been far more credible if multiple independent universities and independent scientific groups could verify it. Unfortunately all the the space travel claims are connected with government in some manner. Therefore it has not been peer reviewed. To believe this requires faith in government integrity.
Which government?

Please explain how satellite broadcasting works with geosynchronous satellites.  The angles of dishes are 100% consistent with a round earth.

16
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« on: March 24, 2022, 08:33:50 PM »
The position data transmitted by ADS-B is the location received by a global navigation satellite system (GNSS) receiver on the aircraft.  We know that GNSS is accurate and repeatable.

There are 4 systems in operation from Russia, Japan, Europe and the US and no reason to doubt them.

17
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: The Bipolar Model- An Investigation.
« on: March 21, 2022, 04:48:20 PM »
Happy to answer any questions on the above, if I can!
What do you mean to communicate here:

"Bearing in mind that you or I could buy an ADS-B receiver to feed flight trackers I’m not sure on what basis any government organisation could ‘interfere’ with that data"

I apologise, I thought it was pretty clear.

ADS-B receivers are abvailable to purchase, or receive free of charge in association with one of the many flight tracker wensites out there.

If you are really paranoid, you can plug them into your computer to build your own flight tracker (with limited horizon of around 100-150 miles). you receive the aircraft's transmissions and that shows you on your computer the location of the aircraft. You don't even need an internet connection. What opportunity are you seeing for anyone to interfere with the data in this case?

A large part of my job is verifying ADS-B data for accuracy (we compare it to ATC radar data to safety assure it's use to provide separation between aircraft). If there were major issues with ADS-B accuracy it wouldn't be used.
Which can be easily done with a £20 SDR receiver and some bent bits of wire for an aerial.  And some open source software.

The accuracy of ADS-B can be seen by comparing eg. FR24 with real time departure and arrival boards for airports.  Also by just seeing aircraft flying over and looking at eg. FR24 or a home based receiver to compare.

Those who doubt the accuracy of ADS data and flight routes should provide some evidence.  There is only one accepted model of the Earth - WGS84.

18
##### Flat Earth Community / Re: Flat Earth maps?
« on: February 25, 2022, 08:32:19 PM »
I mean exactly what I wrote.

Do you have an answer or not?
I don't think I understand the question. In what way is there no agreed map of the earth?
By "map" here, I don't mean a flat piece of paper. I mean it in the more general sense that the earth has been mapped - we know the size and shapes of land masses and the distances between places.
In what way do you think any of that is in dispute? We have a whole global transport system and technologies like GPS which rely on this being the case.
I understand your need to firmly cling to the concept: Humanity has a grip on the size and shape of land masses and the distances between places.

And for most places we do; however, the "go to" argument for many RE-adherents here is this: Why the FE map has a problem with the size of Australia, conveniently ignoring, for instance, the problem with the size of Greenland AND Africa on the Mercator.

The fact of the matter is, given the many imperfections of the land (mountains, valleys, hills, and dales, etc.) the true flat earth plane could be relegated to a sphere of the appropriate size accounting for these imperfections and not indicative of its true shape.

That is how the globe came to be.
You get bullshit when you try to paint reality (i.e., flat earth) in unreal terms (i.e., spherical)

Actually, you get bullshit when you try to paint flat earth into real tearms(sic).  This is why there is no agreed upon FE map.  IF the earth were flat, creating a map of said earth would be an incredibly simple task with modern technology.  It actually would have been an incredibly simple task with less than modern technology.
When you have an agreed upon RE map, then feel free to come back and tell us how "easy," it is.

Jesus, you write as if you are a world renown cartographer or something.

You have no clue about how easy something would be. If you did, then you would have used an "easy," spell check to correct your post.

I'll give you the something (maybe you were a boy scout and took the map reading badge course, who knows), but I will not concede the world-renown cartographer.
It is not about maps. It's the model. WGS83.

19
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: What is going on with these observatories
« on: February 24, 2022, 03:53:37 AM »
Quote from: jimster
the math must be wrong

Considering that you don't show what math they are using, the assumption is undemonstrated, and your concerns can be summarily dismissed due to insufficient information.
The WGS84 reference system defines the shape and size of the earth. Please refer to it.

20
##### Flat Earth Theory / Re: Found a fully working flat earth model?
« on: January 29, 2022, 08:43:28 PM »
Hello,

I believe to have found a fully working flat earth model. Anything that can be proven by physics can also be proven in it.
It's very similar to the bendy light/electromagnetic acceleration theory.
All details are on my website including animations of day/night/seasons: https://troolon.com.
But yes, i believe a working flat earth model has finally been developed.

Feel free to have a look.
Troolon