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Other Discussion Boards => Arts & Entertainment => Topic started by: Ghost Spaghetti on December 19, 2015, 12:02:28 AM

Title: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on December 19, 2015, 12:02:28 AM
Now that a few people have seen this,  I thought we should have a place to talk about it without worrying about spoiling it for others.

Overall, I thought it was typical JJ Abrahms - thoroughly enjoyable if you don't spend too long thinking about it. It was also typical that to him 'homage' apparently means 'rip off'. If you're feeling charitable then he took the spirit of the original and updated it for a new audience; if not, he tried to re make ep4. Still, it was a solid piece of filmmaking which was really fun to watch.

The biggest problem I had was that I didn't understand the stakes because the sides weren't explained properly. At first I thought that The First Order had simply picked up the Empire's reins, then a Republic is mentioned which is apparently different from both the Resistance and GO, whilst secretly supporting the former's guerilla war. So, is the Galaxy now like Korea with the Republic and FO in control of different parts at an uneasy peace?

If so, surely the FO's Death Star ripoff would re-ignite a shooting war?  Surely a galaxy-spanning Republic wouldn't have their entire fleet sat in one star system? Why didn't they throw their support fully behind the Resistance? I feel that these were plot holes which would have been easily fixed with a few lines of dialogue and maybe a map of the state of the Galaxy somewhere near the beginning.

I had other issues, if course. How did Rei go from not knowing how to fly the Falcon to threading it through a downed star destroyer in seconds? How did Finn suddenly know how to fight with a light-sabre? What was the point of Capt Phasma?


Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Lord Dave on December 20, 2015, 09:05:27 PM
Oh yeah, plot holes like nobody's business.


"Hi, I'm Rey.  I just discovered the force an hour ago and now I'm mind controlling. Lol."
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: markjo on December 21, 2015, 12:21:43 AM
Would anyone be shocked if Rey turns out to be Luke's daughter?
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Saddam Hussein on December 21, 2015, 12:32:10 AM
Yet another Death Star was just ridiculous.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Fortuna on December 21, 2015, 04:26:58 AM
Yet another Death Star was just ridiculous.

It was a Death Star shotgun.

And yeah, The Force Awakens was bad. I don't know why every critic is praising it. It's probably worse than the prequels. It's just one giant fan service, plot hole ridden mess. The visuals were good though.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Vindictus on December 21, 2015, 08:03:48 AM
I had other issues, if course. How did Rei go from not knowing how to fly the Falcon to threading it through a downed star destroyer in seconds? How did Finn suddenly know how to fight with a light-sabre? What was the point of Capt Phasma?

How did Luke destroy the death star despite never having flown an X-Wing? Finn never knew how to fight with a lightsaber, that's why he got smashed in both cases. Phasma was the Boba Fett of this movie; a cool looking character that only serves as a minor plot device and will receive more characterisation in sequels.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Lord Dave on December 21, 2015, 08:48:37 AM
Yet another Death Star was just ridiculous.

At least they learned from the last one and covered the opening.

By issues with it is

1) It would take a shit load of time to build.  Using an exiting planet was smart but still, a very long time and manpower and resources.  The Empire took years to build the first death star and they had nearly infinite resources.  And how did the alliance/republic not know this was happening?

2) I'm ok with the whole "hyperspace laser" Fine, whatever.  But using a star to power it is just impractical.  They only had two shots.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: rooster on December 21, 2015, 01:59:44 PM
I enjoyed it.
Also, it's Rey*

How did Rei go from not knowing how to fly the Falcon to threading it through a downed star destroyer in seconds?
Just like what Poe Dameron said, "I can fly anything". It's likely similar to driving a car. Controls will be in different locations and the vehicle will feel different, but it's probably the same general idea and not too hard to figure out. It was already established that she was a pilot.

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How did Finn suddenly know how to fight with a light-sabre?
Anyone can use a lightsaber. You just turn it on and swing it about. It's not like he was super badass with it.

"Hi, I'm Rey.  I just discovered the force an hour ago and now I'm mind controlling. Lol."
Remember how she talked that little alien out of taking a fully functional and expensive droid? She's probably been using the force her entire life without knowing what she was doing. And force persuasion is pretty effective on people who aren't at all force sensitive. If she really is very strong like Kylo said, then it's not difficult to imagine that using just a little bit of effort can get her results. The force is something people need to be trained in to control the power, but if you have a ton of innate ability then you're going to be pretty great already.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Thork on December 21, 2015, 02:30:50 PM
Han Solo dies like a bitch. Didn't try to take his son with him, didn't fight back, didn't scream "damn youuuuuuuu!" as he fell. He just got impaled and wobbled off the walkway.

Also, why does no one ever install a fucking handrail on those things? How hard is that? There must be all kinds of health and safety going on. There aren't any trash cans, but there is no litter, every light bulb works, everything is clean and shiny, there's an alarm or alert for every type of malfunction ... and yet a super important walkway has no handrail on it with a several hundred foot drop? I know this is science fiction, but handrails are not going to become obsolete in the future! >o<

Also, Chewbacca doesn't seem particularly bothered. He sits looking sad for 10 seconds, hops back in the Millennium Falcon with Rae (how she inherited his ship and pet wookie instead of Leia I don't know) and then zooms off to some remote planet to find Luke. Why wasn't she sent alone in an x-wing? How does she scoop one of the best ships in the galaxy and why does Chewy need to go with her? He's gonna be seriously bored watching her try to move rocks with her mind for hours on end, day after day.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: rooster on December 21, 2015, 02:52:03 PM
Han Solo dies like a bitch. Didn't try to take his son with him, didn't fight back, didn't scream "damn youuuuuuuu!" as he fell. He just got impaled and wobbled off the walkway.
Yeah but it's his son and Han isn't the vindictive bitch type.

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Also, why does no one ever install a fucking handrail on those things? How hard is that? There must be all kinds of health and safety going on. There aren't any trash cans, but there is no litter, every light bulb works, everything is clean and shiny, there's an alarm or alert for every type of malfunction ... and yet a super important walkway has no handrail on it with a several hundred foot drop? I know this is science fiction, but handrails are not going to become obsolete in the future! >o<
Yeah, the setting was dumb.

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Also, Chewbacca doesn't seem particularly bothered. He sits looking sad for 10 seconds, hops back in the Millennium Falcon with Rae (how she inherited his ship and pet wookie instead of Leia I don't know) and then zooms off to some remote planet to find Luke. Why wasn't she sent alone in an x-wing? How does she scoop one of the best ships in the galaxy and why does Chewy need to go with her? He's gonna be seriously bored watching her try to move rocks with her mind for hours on end, day after day.
He seemed much more somber. Did you need to see Wookie tears to really feel his pain? Also, Rey was already offered a job on the Falcon so better with her (and the copilot, Chewy) than with Leia who is a general and doesn't need it.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Thork on December 21, 2015, 03:44:41 PM
I would have liked a few wooky tears, yes.

(https://drawception.com/pub/panels/2013/7-1/KjqcntFS1n-8.png)

Whoa, wait. So Chewy works as co-pilot for 30 years, and the moment a promotion opportunity occurs, a woman they have met just 3 days ago who has limited experience gets to keep the ship and be his boss? Chewy is 7 feet tall. He should have stuffed that girl with the big teeth into a garbage pod and ejected her less than 2 mins after they were airborne.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Lord Dave on December 21, 2015, 03:54:16 PM
I would have liked a few wooky tears, yes.

(https://drawception.com/pub/panels/2013/7-1/KjqcntFS1n-8.png)

Whoa, wait. So Chewy works as co-pilot for 30 years, and the moment a promotion opportunity occurs, a woman they have met just 3 days ago who has limited experience gets to keep the ship and be his boss? Chewy is 7 feet tall. He should have stuffed that girl with the big teeth into a garbage pod and ejected her less than 2 mins after they were airborne.
1. You assume he isn't happy Han is dead.  Maybe it's more like "Life Debt fulfilled.  Thank Wookie God that's over."
2. You also assume he wants the captain job.  Maybe he doesn't want it?  Maybe he sucks at it?  Maybe he doesn't care?

Though I thought getting a good shot off at Kylo was moving enough, then he blew the explosives while he was inside.  Like a "Fuck you, now die."
Title: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: junker on December 21, 2015, 04:15:31 PM
Saw it last night. It was okay for me. The character development felt lacking and I didn't really get any sort of emotional attachment. Some more back story behind Han and Kylo Ren would have been nice. The scene he kills his father felt like it should've been more emotional, but was lacking. I appreciated some of the nostalgia, but I think it may have been a bit overdone. Hopefully in the sequels, they can move on from the past and develop a new storyline. Maybe one that doesn't involve a Death Star or Star Killer or Death Galaxy Sun Killer.

I also share Thork's disdain for a lack of guard rails. But I've felt that way in all of them.

And Kylo Ren must be the worst Dark Side villain with a light saber. He should've decapitated Finn in a few seconds. He's a fucking janitor turned Stormtrooper.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Lord Dave on December 21, 2015, 04:20:09 PM
Saw it last night. It was okay for me. The character development felt lacking and I didn't really get any sort of emotional attachment. Some more back story behind Han and Kylo Ren would have been nice. The scene he kills his father felt like it should've been more emotional, but was lacking. I appreciated some of the nostalgia, but I think it may have been a bit overdone. Hopefully in the sequels, they can move on from the past and develop a new storyline. Maybe one that doesn't involve a Death Star or Star Killer or Death Galaxy Sun Killer.

I also share Thork's disdain for a lack of guard rails. But I've felt that way in all of them.

And Kylo Ren must be the worst Dark Side villain with a light saber. He should've decapitated Finn in a few seconds. He's a fucking janitor turned Stormtrooper.
I think he's got raw force power but very little actual training.  He can't even control his anger.  He felt like a whiny kid (and looked like a whiny kid) though much better than Anakin.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: rooster on December 21, 2015, 04:24:04 PM
And Kylo Ren must be the worst Dark Side villain with a light saber. He should've decapitated Finn in a few seconds. He's a fucking janitor turned Stormtrooper.
Yeah, Carter and I were talking about this last night.

He's clearly pretty good with force manipulation, but he's just not a skilled fighter. Which I honestly think makes sense. It seems easier to will things to happen, but to be a good fighter would also require athletic abilities. It's kinda silly to think that just because someone can manipulate energy it should mean they can manipulate how they move themselves, that's like some Matrix shit. Yoda doing all those flips when fighting with a saber was stupid af.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: junker on December 21, 2015, 04:30:23 PM
There really needs to be some more development behind that, if that's the angle that is taken with his character. I get he's not a Sith, and is "force-sensitive" but he still had to have had some training. I assume we will learn more about that during the next 19 sequels.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: rooster on December 21, 2015, 04:43:17 PM
There really needs to be some more development behind that, if that's the angle that is taken with his character. I get he's not a Sith, and is "force-sensitive" but he still had to have had some training. I assume we will learn more about that during the next 19 sequels.
There was development.

He was training under Luke when he decided to rebel. It was him that made Luke give up on training Jedi. And he is a Sith, because technically, a Sith is just someone who uses the dark side of the Force and strives to be the enemy of the Jedi and conquer the galaxy. He's just not a Sith Lord and was called back to finish his training at the end of the movie.

Also, anger is seen as a positive for the Sith. So really he doesn't need to control it but harness it, and the fact that he is so angry will likely help him to be more powerful.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Thork on December 21, 2015, 04:46:13 PM
There really needs to be some more development behind that, if that's the angle that is taken with his character. I get he's not a Sith, and is "force-sensitive" but he still had to have had some training. I assume we will learn more about that during the next 19 sequels.
Yeah, he's force sensitive to be able to feel Han Solo and say "Solo" the instant Han lands on the planet, but not enough when he's actually looking for him when he is 20 feet away he actually turns and heads off in the wrong bloody direction.

Also I'm not done with Rey, who has never left her home planet since she was a child and can speak Wookie. Nobody can speak Wookie -- it's a running joke in the Star Wars universe. But Rey being able to speak Wookie surprises neither her, Han Solo, nor Chewbacca himself.

Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: junker on December 21, 2015, 04:59:25 PM
There really needs to be some more development behind that, if that's the angle that is taken with his character. I get he's not a Sith, and is "force-sensitive" but he still had to have had some training. I assume we will learn more about that during the next 19 sequels.
There was development.

He was training under Luke when he decided to rebel. It was him that made Luke give up on training Jedi. And he is a Sith, because technically, a Sith is just someone who uses the dark side of the Force and strives to be the enemy of the Jedi and conquer the galaxy. He's just not a Sith Lord and was called back to finish his training at the end of the movie.

Also, anger is seen as a positive for the Sith. So really he doesn't need to control it but harness it, and the fact that he is so angry will likely help him to be more powerful.

If he spent time with Luke, he should have developed better skills with the lightsaber. There is no way that Finn would be able to have survived that battle. Maybe Rey does with her previous weapons training and newfound abilities, but it seemed like a pretty big jump to make. The backstory that I have read on Kylo Ren takes care to specifically not imply that he is a Sith, and that Snoke even leverages how he walks the line between light and dark. That is outside of the context of the movie so far, but I presume that is how it will develop. Even Snoke is described as a "force-user" and not a Sith.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: rooster on December 21, 2015, 05:05:08 PM
If he spent time with Luke, he should have developed better skills with the lightsaber.
They said throughout the movie that he trained with Luke. It definitely happened. Not sure how long he trained with him though.

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The backstory that I have read on Kylo Ren takes care to specifically not imply that he is a Sith, and that Snoke even leverages how he walks the line between light and dark. That is outside of the context of the movie so far, but I presume that is how it will develop. Even Snoke is described as a "force-user" and not a Sith.
Well, Sith is an order but if there's not really an established order yet then I guess they could toe that line. But a Sith is just a Force user that harnesses anger and hatred and harms others. Snoke was worried about Kylo because he thought he still had the potential to go home with his parents, but that was decided once and for all when he killed Han.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: junker on December 21, 2015, 05:14:12 PM
If he spent time with Luke, he should have developed better skills with the lightsaber.
They said throughout the movie that he trained with Luke. It definitely happened. Not sure how long he trained with him though.

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The backstory that I have read on Kylo Ren takes care to specifically not imply that he is a Sith, and that Snoke even leverages how he walks the line between light and dark. That is outside of the context of the movie so far, but I presume that is how it will develop. Even Snoke is described as a "force-user" and not a Sith.
Well, Sith is an order but if there's not really an established order yet then I guess they could toe that line. But a Sith is just a Force user that harnesses anger and hatred and harms others. Snoke was worried about Kylo because he thought he still had the potential to go home with his parents, but that was decided once and for all when he killed Han.

Yes, of course he trained with Luke. So it doesn't follow that he isn't that good with a lightsaber, but it isn't something insurmountable I can't get over. I don't think him killing Han decided anything once and for all. That seems way too absolute. Anakin murdered all the younglings, killed Mace Windu, killed his former Jedi master Obi-Wan (as Darth Vader), and still went back to the Light Side in the end.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Blanko on December 21, 2015, 05:21:14 PM
Yoda didn't train Luke with a lightsaber.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: junker on December 21, 2015, 05:22:49 PM

Yoda didn't train Luke with a lightsaber.

Correct. Obi-Wan did.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Blanko on December 21, 2015, 05:29:20 PM
What I mean by that is that Yoda clearly thought that learning the ways of the Force was much more important than learning to fight with a lightsaber, and it only makes sense that Luke would carry over that mentality to his students. It makes even more sense when you consider that the sith were ostensibly gone at the time, so learning how to fight would have been even less important. Luke probably didn't have Kylo construct a lightsaber to begin with, considering how ghetto it is.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: junker on December 21, 2015, 05:35:58 PM

What I mean by that is that Yoda clearly thought that learning the ways of the Force was much more important than learning to fight with a lightsaber, and it only makes sense that Luke would carry over that mentality to his students. It makes even more sense when you consider that the sith were ostensibly gone at the time, so learning how to fight would have been even less important. Luke probably didn't have Kylo construct a lightsaber to begin with, considering how ghetto it is.

That's a great line of reasoning that I can get on board with. It does seem like a bit of a reach in the context of the new film alone. I would assume had Yoda been operating a Jedi academy as Luke was said to have been when Kylo Ren was sent with him, then some type of weapons training would have occurred in both scenarios.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: rooster on December 21, 2015, 06:16:35 PM
I don't think him killing Han decided anything once and for all. That seems way too absolute. Anakin murdered all the younglings, killed Mace Windu, killed his former Jedi master Obi-Wan (as Darth Vader), and still went back to the Light Side in the end.
He clearly made his choice though.

And one good deed hardly means Vader went back to the light side. I never understood that, he was responsible for so much death and destruction but when he saves his kid he's redeemed? No.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Vindictus on December 22, 2015, 04:18:12 AM
You guys realise that training in the movie-verse basically means understanding the force better, right? Not actual lightsaber training. Luke never used his saber once on Dagobah. Only in the shitty prequels did they go full retard with the blast shield helmets and floating devices for saber training, and even that emphasizes use of the force.

I wouldn't be surprised if Kylo has zero training in lightsaber use. Regardless, it doesn't matter. He smashed Finn and nearly beat Rey while sustaining multiple injuries.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Lord Dave on December 22, 2015, 07:16:11 AM
You guys realise that training in the movie-verse basically means understanding the force better, right? Not actual lightsaber training. Luke never used his saber once on Dagobah. Only in the shitty prequels did they go full retard with the blast shield helmets and floating devices for saber training, and even that emphasizes use of the force.

I wouldn't be surprised if Kylo has zero training in lightsaber use. Regardless, it doesn't matter. He smashed Finn and nearly beat Rey while sustaining multiple injuries.
There is literally no point in having a weapon if you aren't trained to use it.
While we didn't SEE any saber training, swinging wildly is not going to solve anything.  Especially since the weapon is exotic enough that you could very easily hurt yourself using it.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Vindictus on December 22, 2015, 09:42:23 AM
You guys realise that training in the movie-verse basically means understanding the force better, right? Not actual lightsaber training. Luke never used his saber once on Dagobah. Only in the shitty prequels did they go full retard with the blast shield helmets and floating devices for saber training, and even that emphasizes use of the force.

I wouldn't be surprised if Kylo has zero training in lightsaber use. Regardless, it doesn't matter. He smashed Finn and nearly beat Rey while sustaining multiple injuries.
There is literally no point in having a weapon if you aren't trained to use it.
While we didn't SEE any saber training, swinging wildly is not going to solve anything.  Especially since the weapon is exotic enough that you could very easily hurt yourself using it.

They don't swing wildly. The whole point of lightsabers being specific to force users is that they can forsee blaster fire and the swings of opponents. Do you really need hand to hand combat training when you're operating with precognition? This also doesn't address my point that throughout the whole original trilogy Luke is never once taught to use his lightsaber against an opponent, even being told to not use it.

I'm fully aware of the bullshit stances that are elaborated on in the EU, but they've never been conveyed or mentioned in any of the movies. Lightsaber battles are about the characters and their use of the force, not who is the best fencer.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Lord Dave on December 22, 2015, 09:53:40 AM
You guys realise that training in the movie-verse basically means understanding the force better, right? Not actual lightsaber training. Luke never used his saber once on Dagobah. Only in the shitty prequels did they go full retard with the blast shield helmets and floating devices for saber training, and even that emphasizes use of the force.

I wouldn't be surprised if Kylo has zero training in lightsaber use. Regardless, it doesn't matter. He smashed Finn and nearly beat Rey while sustaining multiple injuries.
There is literally no point in having a weapon if you aren't trained to use it.
While we didn't SEE any saber training, swinging wildly is not going to solve anything.  Especially since the weapon is exotic enough that you could very easily hurt yourself using it.

They don't swing wildly. The whole point of lightsabers being specific to force users is that they can forsee blaster fire and the swings of opponents. Do you really need hand to hand combat training when you're operating with precognition? This also doesn't address my point that throughout the whole original trilogy Luke is never once taught to use his lightsaber against an opponent, even being told to not use it.

I'm fully aware of the bullshit stances that are elaborated on in the EU, but they've never been conveyed or mentioned in any of the movies. Lightsaber battles are about the characters and their use of the force, not who is the best fencer.
No, its specific to force users because its a difficult weapon to use.  The blade is weightless.


We never saw luke get trained in much.  Should we assume he was only trained onscreen?


Also, Obi-wan mentions to Anakin how he needs to work on his sabering.




"If you spent as much time practicing your saber techniques as you did your wit, you'd rival Master Yoda as a swordsman."
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Vindictus on December 22, 2015, 11:06:04 AM
We never saw luke get trained in much.  Should we assume he was only trained onscreen?

Well, yeah. There were only two Jedi in the original trilogy and both were dead by 6. Neither taught Luke to fight with a saber.

Also, Obi-wan mentions to Anakin how he needs to work on his sabering.

"If you spent as much time practicing your saber techniques as you did your wit, you'd rival Master Yoda as a swordsman."

Ah yes, one of the many stupid fucking lines in the prequels. Lucas seems to have forgotten what they wrote for Yoda in the original trilogy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMUKGTkiWik).
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Lord Dave on December 22, 2015, 11:45:13 AM
We never saw luke get trained in much.  Should we assume he was only trained onscreen?

Well, yeah. There were only two Jedi in the original trilogy and both were dead by 6. Neither taught Luke to fight with a saber.
They didn't train Luke to do a flip either or pull shit with the force.  There's a lot of "off screen" training that went on.  Presumably, Yoda or ghost ben taught him how to use a light saber properly.  If not, he had no chance against Vader.  Ever.


Quote
Also, Obi-wan mentions to Anakin how he needs to work on his sabering.

"If you spent as much time practicing your saber techniques as you did your wit, you'd rival Master Yoda as a swordsman."

Ah yes, one of the many stupid fucking lines in the prequels. Lucas seems to have forgotten what they wrote for Yoda in the original trilogy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMUKGTkiWik).
No where does he state the force is the only training he gives.  Hell, he built a lightsaber.  Surely Yoda taught him how.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: rooster on December 22, 2015, 01:20:14 PM
Why are we comparing Kylo Ren to Luke?

Luke in the original trilogy is more powerful than Kylo Ren is in this movie.
And there are different techniques within the Force and across Force users. Just because Luke was good with a saber doesn't mean all Force users are going to be great.

Also, Lord Dave, Rey had zero training with a saber yet was pretty proficient. That backs up what Vindictus is saying about using the Force over being a trained fencer.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: garygreen on December 22, 2015, 05:26:36 PM
I watched TFA last night and thought it was a really, really fun movie.  I enjoyed it immensely from start to finish.  17/38 would see again.

My only (very minor) complaint was that I wish they wouldn't have unmasked Ren in the first film.  As soon as the mask came off, he ceased to be as menacing to me because he was slightly more humanized.  I totally get that the writers probably didn't want to write the part as Vader: Redux, but I just wasn't yet ready to view Ren as a troubled-and-possibly-still-fundamentally-good human being who deserves any measure of sympathy.  But, that's a pretty minor thing, and it didn't detract from the movie overall. 

I'm also on the side of the "lightsaber fighting is about the force, not fencing" side of that debate.  I think it kinda has to be that way or none of the movies make much sense.  The best example to me is that there isn't any other way to explain Luke overcoming Vader (or even not just being immediately killed by him in any of their fights).  If we're taking swordfighting as the analogy, then it just isn't believable to me at all that anyone who had only trained in swordfighting for a few years as an adult could ever come close to matching the prowess of someone who had been training for his/her entire life, from childhood.  I don't recall from the first movies when Anakin started training with lightsabers, but by the time of TESB, Vader had been using lightsabers to fight people for literally decades.  It just isn't believable to me that Luke defeats Vader by virtue of training and proficiency with a lightsaber, and I think this is explained by the notion that "the Force is strong" within him.  Luke can hang with Vader and eventually overcome him because of the Force, not awesome lightsaber training from Yoda.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Lord Dave on December 22, 2015, 07:06:42 PM
Also, Lord Dave, Rey had zero training with a saber yet was pretty proficient. That backs up what Vindictus is saying about using the Force over being a trained fencer.
She also had zero force training yet mind controlled a storm trooper within minutes of even learning she could. 

To me this is just a plothole.  Or she's a force prodigy and needs no training.  Which to me is stupid.

As for Luke fighting Vader:  The first time, Vader wasn't trying to kill him.  The second time, it's iffy.


But let's say the Jedi don't do saber training.  Let's say it's uncoordinated movements that you do while sensing.  Completely untrained.  So you know that your opponent is going to swing from above.  What do you do?  Block would be your instinct, but do you know how to effectively block or even counter attack?  The force can tell you what's coming but it can't tell you how to react to it.

This would be the difference of a fist fight between a black belt and a normal, untrained guy with the force.  Can he see that kick coming?  Sure.  And his instinct will be to do something.  But the black belt will have a much better chance of anticipating his actions and having a counter attack ready.  You can predict his attacks, but how do you defend yourself against them in such a way as to avoid what he anticipates?

Sorry but there is no possible way the Jedi are going to give anyone a weapon and not train them how to use it.  It's stupid and a waste.  And if they did, the Sith would capitalize on that and say "You know, if we TRAIN this guy to fight with a light saber, he'll kick the butt of any Jedi."


Side note:  Vader is in a giant suit and is slow because of it.  Hence why his style is a very forceful one rather than agile. 

Also:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Anderson_%28fencer%29
The guy who did the sword fighting as Vader WAS a professional fencer AND he did the choreography.  So... yeah.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Fortuna on December 22, 2015, 07:36:57 PM
Can we just say that the movie was rushed and leave it at that?
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: rooster on December 22, 2015, 08:49:34 PM
Also, Lord Dave, Rey had zero training with a saber yet was pretty proficient. That backs up what Vindictus is saying about using the Force over being a trained fencer.
She also had zero force training yet mind controlled a storm trooper within minutes of even learning she could. 

To me this is just a plothole.  Or she's a force prodigy and needs no training.  Which to me is stupid.
Well when we see Yoda training Luke, it's really just getting him to believe in himself and focus. If you have strong will, you don't really need someone to coach you on that. She will still need training to learn what she can do, her limits, what's dangerous, etc.

It doesn't seem like a stretch to me that someone with a lot of innate sensitivity can get results if they simply focus and will something to happen. It's like learning how to play a sport, not like learning how to operate machinery.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Vindictus on December 22, 2015, 09:44:48 PM
She also had zero force training yet mind controlled a storm trooper within minutes of even learning she could. 

To me this is just a plothole.  Or she's a force prodigy and needs no training.  Which to me is stupid.

That's not what a plot hole is Dave. That's like saying obi wan talking to Luke in 4 was a plot hole. A legit plot hole is how did po get back to the rebels?


But let's say the Jedi don't do saber training.  Let's say it's uncoordinated movements that you do while sensing.  Completely untrained.  So you know that your opponent is going to swing from above.  What do you do?  Block would be your instinct, but do you know how to effectively block or even counter attack?  The force can tell you what's coming but it can't tell you how to react to it.

This would be the difference of a fist fight between a black belt and a normal, untrained guy with the force.  Can he see that kick coming?  Sure.  And his instinct will be to do something.  But the black belt will have a much better chance of anticipating his actions and having a counter attack ready.  You can predict his attacks, but how do you defend yourself against them in such a way as to avoid what he anticipates?

Sorry but there is no possible way the Jedi are going to give anyone a weapon and not train them how to use it.  It's stupid and a waste.  And if they did, the Sith would capitalize on that and say "You know, if we TRAIN this guy to fight with a light saber, he'll kick the butt of any Jedi."

But they did. Obi wan and Yoda spend no time training Luke how to fence. Instead they teach him about the force and Luke figures the rest out.

Also:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Anderson_%28fencer%29
The guy who did the sword fighting as Vader WAS a professional fencer AND he did the choreography.  So... yeah.

Yes, but the fight in 5 still wasn't about the fencing. That was done to make it look less retarded than the fight in 4.

Can we just say that the movie was rushed and leave it at that?

It wasn't. Abrams has stated on multiple occasions that the movie has been done for months and that the production was a very relaxed affair. Nothing about the film seems rushed either.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Saddam Hussein on December 22, 2015, 10:42:03 PM
I've just seen it, and it was great.  It wasn't even as much as a ripoff of A New Hope as I had feared - really, the only nostalgic element that I felt detracted from the movie was the Death Star retread.  It's not introduced until over the halfway mark, and when it is, it's essentially superfluous to the more personal story involving Rey and Finn.  I thought that Snoke was pretty silly, and Captain Phasma was remarkably underused for a character as heavily hyped as hers, but I can't think of anything else that bothered me.

Now, on the very important subject of the lightsaber battles, I really liked how this movie handled them.  If there's one element of the prequels that doesn't get the criticism it deserves, it's the action scenes that involve lightsabers.  Here, we got to see the actors give performances, rather than anonymous stunt doubles perform highly-stylized choreography.  And building on what Vindictus said, as well as cribbing from Plinkett, it was the prequels that essentially reduced Jedi to being little more than ridiculous lightsaber ninjas and their worth as a Jedi to being little more than their skill as a ridiculous lightsaber ninja.  The fact that Rey managed to beat Ren (why do those two names have to be so similar?) doesn't automatically make her some kind of super Force wizard or Jedi master, or even Ren's superior in swordsmanship.  Despite his injuries and the fact that he was trying to take Rey alive, Ren dominated the fight up until the key moment where Rey managed to truly use the Force.  It's a pretty common trope in action movies for the hero to suddenly turn the tables on the villain in the climax when they get their second wind.

Finally, I remember that the marketing seemed to imply that Finn was going to be the main protagonist of this, or at least the character who fit into the "chosen one" role, what with posters showing him with a lightsaber and everything.  It led to reactions like this:

An epic story where Jedis are downtrodden and forgotten, then one newbie rises up to defeat the Evil Empire (This time he's black, folks!) In theaters December 16!

Not that Finn wasn't great, but I liked that it ended up being Rey who's presumably going on to become a Jedi and discover her destiny and all that.  She felt like a much better fit.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: junker on December 22, 2015, 11:02:55 PM
The fact that Rey managed to beat Ren (why do those two names have to be so similar?)

Ren is just an assumed surname since he is a member of the Kinghts of Ren. They call him Kylo in the hood.

I can get with the idea of the lightsaber skills being a less-important part of a force-user, especially after reading the conversation that took place here. At least as long as it stays consistent in the sequels going forward. I do wish there was more build-up or back story between Han and Kylo. It came off as very predictable and unemotional when Han was killed.

I am going to go watch it again at some point now that I have had time to digest it and get other perspectives.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: garygreen on December 23, 2015, 02:38:28 AM
i just thought of a really nerdy way to explain how i conceptualize lightsaber duels, so i'm sharing it now because why not:

i think the luke skywalker circa empire strikes back beats jaime lannister in a lightsaber duel, and handily.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Rama Set on December 23, 2015, 07:14:18 PM
Oh yeah, plot holes like nobody's business.


"Hi, I'm Rey.  I just discovered the force an hour ago and now I'm mind controlling. Lol."

Rey seems to know all the stories from Ep 4-6, so I think she was trying what she knew.  She also was trained as a Jedi when very young, so she maybe has some vestigial memory of that.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Rama Set on December 23, 2015, 07:15:26 PM
It's probably worse than the prequels. It's just one giant fan service, plot hole ridden mess.

No way.  This movie has good characters with heart.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Rama Set on December 23, 2015, 07:21:52 PM
I don't think him killing Han decided anything once and for all. That seems way too absolute. Anakin murdered all the younglings, killed Mace Windu, killed his former Jedi master Obi-Wan (as Darth Vader), and still went back to the Light Side in the end.
He clearly made his choice though.

And one good deed hardly means Vader went back to the light side. I never understood that, he was responsible for so much death and destruction but when he saves his kid he's redeemed? No.

He didn't just save his kid, he threw his old master to his death and sacrificed his own life to do so.  Anyway, this redemption is not like Christianity where you have a ledger of sins that must be atoned for, it is something that happens in the heart.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Rama Set on December 23, 2015, 07:25:37 PM
Sorry for the quadruple post btw, just catching up.

On the notion of Rey being an untrained combatant, she obviously had some skill as demonstrated by her proficiency with the staff on Jakku.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: DuckDodgers on December 23, 2015, 07:46:55 PM
Rey being trained as a jedi from a young age is not yet known, unless the novel expounds on that.  It can be inferred given her proficiency with force powers.  A popular fan theory is she was trained at Luke's academy, likely because she is his daughter, and Ben couldn't bring himself to kill her, so she is the sole survivor of the massacre. In order to protect her from his own fate a la Snoke, he erases her memories and leaves her on Jakks where he assumes she will be left out of any conflicts that could awaken the force in her again, leaving her hidden from Snoke. He could have potentially erased his own memory of that event in order to bury it forever.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: rooster on December 23, 2015, 07:59:17 PM
I don't think him killing Han decided anything once and for all. That seems way too absolute. Anakin murdered all the younglings, killed Mace Windu, killed his former Jedi master Obi-Wan (as Darth Vader), and still went back to the Light Side in the end.
He clearly made his choice though.

And one good deed hardly means Vader went back to the light side. I never understood that, he was responsible for so much death and destruction but when he saves his kid he's redeemed? No.

He didn't just save his kid, he threw his old master to his death and sacrificed his own life to do so.  Anyway, this redemption is not like Christianity where you have a ledger of sins that must be atoned for, it is something that happens in the heart.
Nah, that shit doesn't cut it for me. He killed sooooo many innocent people. Fuck you, Vader!
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Saddam Hussein on December 23, 2015, 08:01:34 PM
Sorry for the quadruple post btw, just catching up.

If only there was some kind of "edit" function so we wouldn't always have to make a new post every time we think of something else to say.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Lord Dave on December 23, 2015, 08:35:11 PM
I don't think him killing Han decided anything once and for all. That seems way too absolute. Anakin murdered all the younglings, killed Mace Windu, killed his former Jedi master Obi-Wan (as Darth Vader), and still went back to the Light Side in the end.
He clearly made his choice though.

And one good deed hardly means Vader went back to the light side. I never understood that, he was responsible for so much death and destruction but when he saves his kid he's redeemed? No.

He didn't just save his kid, he threw his old master to his death and sacrificed his own life to do so.  Anyway, this redemption is not like Christianity where you have a ledger of sins that must be atoned for, it is something that happens in the heart.
Nah, that shit doesn't cut it for me. He killed sooooo many innocent people. Fuck you, Vader!
You seem to be under the impression the force gives a damn about light and dark. Vader could have simply appeared because he found peace with himself and was able to join the force.  The internal conflict was resolved.  Palpatine probably became one with the force as well, he's just a dick so he wouldn't show up to a bunch of good guys.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: rooster on December 23, 2015, 09:15:33 PM
What? I'm not even talking about his spirit showing up. I'm just talking about what a douche he was and the audience is okay with it cause he saved Luke.

In the real world, people are typically not okay with someone that evil just because they sacrificed themselves for one person. Vader is a dick.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Lord Dave on December 23, 2015, 09:38:54 PM
What? I'm not even talking about his spirit showing up. I'm just talking about what a douche he was and the audience is okay with it cause he saved Luke.

In the real world, people are typically not okay with someone that evil just because they sacrificed themselves for one person. Vader is a dick.


Oh.
Then yeah, totally doesn't balance.

Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: beardo on December 23, 2015, 10:40:06 PM
When Jedi fall to the dark side, they pretty much turns into a different person. And when they redeem themselves, they return to being the person they were before the fall.
Vader slaughtered those kids and Jedi, not Anakin.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: rooster on December 24, 2015, 12:09:31 AM
When Jedi fall to the dark side, they pretty much turns into a different person. And when they redeems themselves, they returns to being the person they were before the fall.
Vader slaughtered those kids and Jedi, not Anakin.
I've never heard that excuse before. But it's a nice way to not take responsibility for anything in the Star Wars universe.

I don't know why we're even focusing on this.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Thork on December 24, 2015, 01:02:57 AM
When Jedi fall to the dark side, they pretty much turns into a different person. And when they redeems themselves, they returns to being the person they were before the fall.
Vader slaughtered those kids and Jedi, not Anakin.
... your honour.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Fortuna on December 24, 2015, 03:03:52 AM
What? I'm not even talking about his spirit showing up. I'm just talking about what a douche he was and the audience is okay with it cause he saved Luke.

In the real world, people are typically not okay with someone that evil just because they sacrificed themselves for one person. Vader is a dick.

People don't like him because he saved Luke. They like him because he redeemed himself and turned away from the Dark Side at great personal cost.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Decimus on December 25, 2015, 02:58:58 AM
I liked the new one okay. Saw the prequels first so i dont have a huge attachement like some people do
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Rama Set on December 25, 2015, 05:10:14 AM
Sorry for the quadruple post btw, just catching up.

If only there was some kind of "edit" function so we wouldn't always have to make a new post every time we think of something else to say.

I was responding to a different quote in every case.  Sorry my work flow sucks.  My bad!

What? I'm not even talking about his spirit showing up. I'm just talking about what a douche he was and the audience is okay with it cause he saved Luke.

In the real world, people are typically not okay with someone that evil just because they sacrificed themselves for one person. Vader is a dick.

He didn't sacrifice himself for one person.  One person prompted his sacrifice, but the death of the emperor likely saved millions of lives.  I suppose my other question is, how many people must one make a selfless sacrifice for to atone for their crimes?
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Saddam Hussein on December 25, 2015, 05:51:19 AM
I was responding to a different quote in every case.  Sorry my work flow sucks.  My bad!

There's also an "insert quote" function, or you could open a new tab when you quote someone so you can copypasta all the text into one message.  Could you please edit it into one post?  I'm sorry to sound rude, but it looks so annoying to see four posts from the same person in a row like that.  I mean, fine if nobody replies and sometime later you bump it with a new message, but in a situation like this is just...no.  It's like somebody says something in a conversation, turns around to leave, and then turns around again and yells "And another thing!"  Multiple times, too.

Back on topic, I don't think it's right to be weighing lives cost versus lives saved like it's some kind of zero-sum game.  Without going so far as to say something trite about it being the thought that counts, what's important about Vader's redemption is that he finally managed to turn against the Emperor and do some good.  I don't know if anyone would say that "excuses" the terrible things he did, but it was enough to show Luke the good man that his father had once been wasn't wholly gone.

The prequels, of course, managed to ruin this contrast by portraying Anakin Skywalker not as the brilliant Jedi, loyal friend, and all-around awesome guy that the characters in the original trilogy described him as, but as a spoiled, selfish, whiny asshole who was only ever a mediocre Jedi.  But bullshit from the prequels is best left ignored in a case like this.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Rama Set on December 25, 2015, 07:16:53 PM
I was responding to a different quote in every case.  Sorry my work flow sucks.  My bad!

There's also an "insert quote" function, or you could open a new tab when you quote someone so you can copypasta all the text into one message.  Could you please edit it into one post?  I'm sorry to sound rude, but it looks so annoying to see four posts from the same person in a row like that.  I mean, fine if nobody replies and sometime later you bump it with a new message, but in a situation like this is just...no.  It's like somebody says something in a conversation, turns around to leave, and then turns around again and yells "And another thing!"  Multiple times, too.

Yeah, I already apologized and did exactly what you say here so maybe, let it go?

Quote
Back on topic, I don't think it's right to be weighing lives cost versus lives saved like it's some kind of zero-sum game.  Without going so far as to say something trite about it being the thought that counts, what's important about Vader's redemption is that he finally managed to turn against the Emperor and do some good.  I don't know if anyone would say that "excuses" the terrible things he did, but it was enough to show Luke the good man that his father had once been wasn't wholly gone.

Totally agree. Vader's redemption was personal and never meant to make him a venerated figure in galactic society. Luke accepts it, because of his compassion for Vader's pain and because his intuition lets him perceive the totality of Vader's atonement but I fully expect everyone else, including Leah, would spit on his grave.

The prequels, of course, managed to ruin this contrast by portraying Anakin Skywalker not as the brilliant Jedi, loyal friend, and all-around awesome guy that the characters in the original trilogy described him as, but as a spoiled, selfish, whiny asshole who was only ever a mediocre Jedi.  But bullshit from the prequels is best left ignored in a case like this.
[/quote]
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Blanko on December 25, 2015, 08:06:03 PM
Holy fuck can you stop memberating already
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on December 25, 2015, 11:25:11 PM
Ok, did anyone understand the whole First Order thing enough to explain it without resorting to non-film material?
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: rooster on December 26, 2015, 01:17:02 AM
Ok, did anyone understand the whole First Order thing enough to explain it without resorting to non-film material?
The opening crawl talked about it. What questions did you have?
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Lord Dave on December 26, 2015, 06:28:24 AM
Ok, did anyone understand the whole First Order thing enough to explain it without resorting to non-film material?


The Emporer died.
Some guy took power.
Renamee Empire to First Order.

Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on December 26, 2015, 09:57:55 AM
That's what I assumed, then they started talking about a Republic which was apparently separate from the Republic but backed by it?
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Lord Dave on December 26, 2015, 10:33:37 AM
That's what I assumed, then they started talking about a Republic which was apparently separate from the Republic but backed by it?
Rebels.

Republic is separate from the Rebels.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: rooster on December 26, 2015, 02:15:54 PM
Did you even watch the movie, GS?
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on December 27, 2015, 09:45:02 AM
I reiterate the points from my opening post:

The biggest problem I had was that I didn't understand the stakes because the sides weren't explained properly. At first I thought that The First Order had simply picked up the Empire's reins, then a Republic is mentioned which is apparently different from both the Resistance and GO, whilst secretly supporting the former's guerilla war. So, is the Galaxy now like Korea with the Republic and FO in control of different parts at an uneasy peace? 

If so, surely the FO's Death Star ripoff would re-ignite a shooting war?  Surely a galaxy-spanning Republic wouldn't have their entire fleet sat in one star system? Why didn't they throw their support fully behind the Resistance? I feel that these were plot holes which would have been easily fixed with a few lines of dialogue and maybe a map of the state of the Galaxy somewhere near the beginning.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: rooster on December 27, 2015, 01:11:07 PM
FO isn't in control of anything. They're just blowing shit up. Yes, I'm pretty sure it will reignite a war.

None of these are plot holes per se. Just things that haven't been expanded on yet. This movie was mostly focused on the main characters as opposed to the political climate. Aren't there books being written for these movies too?
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Lord Dave on December 27, 2015, 07:52:50 PM
They probably learned from the prequels to ignore politics.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Saddam Hussein on December 27, 2015, 08:15:42 PM
It would only have taken a few extra lines in the opening crawl to clear up what the First Order and the Republic are.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Lord Dave on December 27, 2015, 09:53:10 PM
It would only have taken a few extra lines in the opening crawl to clear up what the First Order and the Republic are.

Agreed.  But maybe they don't know yet?  They said "Hey, let's just pretend we know and figure it out later..."
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Снупс on December 27, 2015, 11:44:43 PM
I liked the movie a lot, but Boyega was really flat. They just kind of played on "loud black man" stereotypes for him.

Also, maybe we aren't supposed to completely know what the first order is yet?
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: beardo on December 28, 2015, 03:18:57 AM
He really didn't strike me as a man who lived his whole life being trained as a Stormtrooper. Sure, we've seen Stormtroopers engage in chit-chat, but I've always been under the impression that Imperial soldiers are supposed to be highly diciplined, no-bullshit sort of people, yet Finn turned out to be just a regular dude.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on December 28, 2015, 08:44:55 PM
They probably learned from the prequels to ignore politics.

All it would have needed was a brief scene where Leia walks into a Rebellion control room (why is she in the rebellion, not a senior figure in the Republic is another question I'd like answered.) where there's a great big hologram map of the galaxy up withthe extent of the Republic in blue and the FO in red.

Or "Say, why can't the Republic help us deal with these FO nutters?"
"They're stretched too thin as it is, when the Empire fell, the FO held a lot of planets loyal to the old regime. All they can do is send us the odd ship."
"Well then, we better get suited up and start shooting TIE-fighters!"
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Particle Person on December 29, 2015, 12:27:23 AM
I Googled "First Order" and Google showed me my two most recent Steam purchases. W0W
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Saddam Hussein on December 29, 2015, 01:23:37 AM
This article explains it:

http://www.vox.com/2015/12/21/10634568/star-wars-the-force-awakens-spoilers-republic-first-order
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on December 29, 2015, 01:10:52 PM
Cheers for the article, it's similar to what I was able to piece together by the end of the movie.

This is such typical J.J.Abrams lazy writing - introduce some major plot element for the 'cool' factor, fail to provide any in-movie explanation for it, and rely on other writers in tie-in media to plug his plot holes for him.

As soon as I started wondering about the FO and the Republic, I knew that the answer would be something like: "Well, to understand it you need to read the fifteen different tie-in novels, comic-books, games, and prog-rock albums." which doesn't excuse crappy writing.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: rooster on December 29, 2015, 01:34:49 PM
As soon as I started wondering about the FO and the Republic, I knew that the answer would be something like: "Well, to understand it you need to read the fifteen different tie-in novels, comic-books, games, and prog-rock albums." which doesn't excuse crappy writing.
I think that's Disney's fault, not Abrams'. It's a business.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on December 29, 2015, 02:06:31 PM
As soon as I started wondering about the FO and the Republic, I knew that the answer would be something like: "Well, to understand it you need to read the fifteen different tie-in novels, comic-books, games, and prog-rock albums." which doesn't excuse crappy writing.
I think that's Disney's fault, not Abrams'. It's a business.

He did exactly the same thing with the first Star Trek reboot. The plot didn't make a lick of sense unless you'd read at least a summary of the tie-in comic book. Lost made plotholes a feature, not a bug. I haven't seen much else of his work, but it seems to be a recurring feature of the work I have seen.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: rooster on December 29, 2015, 04:15:35 PM
He didn't write Star Trek....
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Rama Set on December 29, 2015, 04:57:09 PM
Furthermore, the plot of Star Trek was very understandable.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Saddam Hussein on December 30, 2015, 04:08:14 AM
While I too have blamed Abrams before for some of the shit that happened in Lost, he actually had a pretty limited role in that show.  The person who really deserves the blame is his frequent collaborator, Damon Lindelof, who was the showrunner.  Lindelof doesn't exactly have a great track record when it comes to sci-fi.  He produced (but didn't write) the first nu-Trek, and he wrote (in part) the second nu-Trek, Cowboys and Aliens, Prometheus, World War Z, and most recently, Tomorrowland, providing the wonderful director Brad Bird with his first critical flop.  These are all movies in which pretty much everyone agreed that the biggest weakness was the writing.  Still, Lost did have a lot of good things going for it, and more recently, Lindelof has been the showrunner of the critically-acclaimed, rooster-approved The Leftovers, so maybe his talent is just better suited for television?  I'll grant that he at least tries, which is more than I can fucking say for the other two frequent collaborators of Abrams, the shit-shoveling hacks-for-hire Alex Kurtzman and Roberto Orci.  Fuck those two, seriously.  Their filmography reads like a fucking criminal indictment.  The IslandThe Legend of Zorro.  The Transformers series.  The Amazing Spider-Man 2.  And, you guessed it, both nu-Trek movies.  Orci in particular is an unpleasant shithead who's taken to the Internet before (http://www.dailydot.com/fandom/star-trek-into-darkness-writer-rude-fans/) to insult people criticizing those films, and it's been convincingly argued (http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2013/09/11/how-star-trek-into-darkness-is-a-crypto-truther-conspiracy-movie) that his nutty conspiratard beliefs may have played a role in how confusing and nonsensical Into Darkness's plot was.  He was briefly tapped to direct the third nu-Trek, too.  Just saying, sometimes people blame Abrams for things that are really the fault of his lousy writers.

Anyway, Abrams didn't write either of the nu-Treks, but he did have a hand in writing TFA, so I'd say he's a reasonable choice of person to blame for the oversight.  I certainly don't think that they were mandated by Disney to keep the FO vague.  What would be the point of that?
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: rooster on December 30, 2015, 01:50:52 PM
Anyway, Abrams didn't write either of the nu-Treks, but he did have a hand in writing TFA, so I'd say he's a reasonable choice of person to blame for the oversight.  I certainly don't think that they were mandated by Disney to keep the FO vague.  What would be the point of that?
For the cash cow, m8. All the comics, books, spin offs, etc. They probably wanted this movie to focus more on the main characters and leave open questions about the rest of the galaxy for tie-ins.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Pongo on December 30, 2015, 07:20:06 PM
I liked the movie.  Here are my thoughts on this thread.

Nobody can speak Wookie -- it's a running joke in the Star Wars universe. But Rey being able to speak Wookie surprises neither her, Han Solo, nor Chewbacca himself.

Didn't Lando, C-3PO, and Yoda all speak wookie?

And Kylo Ren must be the worst Dark Side villain with a light saber. He should've decapitated Finn in a few seconds. He's a fucking janitor turned Stormtrooper.

Why does everyone think that combat training is outside the wheelhouse of a Stormtrooper?  Not to mention, Ren was wounded.  Possibly severely.

Luke never used his saber once on Dagobah.

That's patently wrong.

She also had zero force training yet mind controlled a storm trooper within minutes of even learning she could. 

She got stronger after each encounter with Ren.  I think she was on the learn-as-you-go plan.  Very Solo.

Not that Finn wasn't great, but I liked that it ended up being Rey who's presumably going on to become a Jedi and discover her destiny and all that.  She felt like a much better fit.

No qualms with anything Saddam has to say.  Just want to point out that it's not ruled out that Finn isn't force sensitive.  "An awakening" doesn't necessarily imply a singular person.  In theory there could have been "an awakening" across the galaxy.  Now, I don't think Finn will be force sensitive, but we never know.

He didn't just save his kid, he threw his old master to his death and sacrificed his own life to do so.  Anyway, this redemption is not like Christianity where you have a ledger of sins that must be atoned for, it is something that happens in the heart.
Nah, that shit doesn't cut it for me. He killed sooooo many innocent people. Fuck you, Vader!

I don't think that turning over to the light side means that Vader now gets to go to Jedi Heaven or that it absolves him of his past evils.  I've always taken it to mean that he is now drawing his powers from the light side.  Simple as that.  If he were to stand trial, he would still be guilty, it's just that he's no longer evil (at the moment).

Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Saddam Hussein on December 30, 2015, 07:53:22 PM
Yeah, there was this scene on Dagobah:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=infZSKB5L9I

Of course, this provides probably the strongest evidence of all of how much the prequels fucked up by overemphasizing flashy combat and lightsaber acrobatics as being the main role of a Jedi.  You know you've gone way off-base when lines like "Your weapons...you will not need them," have been replaced with stupid shit like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LH2-Ha6PgpA
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: rooster on December 30, 2015, 07:56:14 PM
I don't think that turning over to the light side means that Vader now gets to go to Jedi Heaven or that it absolves him of his past evils.  I've always taken it to mean that he is now drawing his powers from the light side.  Simple as that.  If he were to stand trial, he would still be guilty, it's just that he's no longer evil (at the moment).
Dude, seriously. I was not talking about in movie shit. I was talking about how fans of the Star Wars series like Vader when he's an evil motherfucker.

Anyone who says they're a fan of the "dark side" is just a try-hard ass. They are modeled after Nazis and fucking murder millions of innocent people. If you seriously are a fan of that then you're crazy.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Pongo on December 30, 2015, 08:01:51 PM
I don't think that turning over to the light side means that Vader now gets to go to Jedi Heaven or that it absolves him of his past evils.  I've always taken it to mean that he is now drawing his powers from the light side.  Simple as that.  If he were to stand trial, he would still be guilty, it's just that he's no longer evil (at the moment).
Dude, seriously. I was not talking about in movie shit. I was talking about how fans of the Star Wars series like Vader when he's an evil motherfucker.

Anyone who says they're a fan of the "dark side" is just a try-hard ass. They are modeled after Nazis and fucking murder millions of innocent people. If you seriously are a fan of that then you're crazy.

Well, Dude, seriously, when you inexplicably and ambiguously switch context with your replies people don't realize that and assume that you're talking about the topic at hand.


PS: Please don't take that comment out of context, I was actually talking to someone else, about something else, that has nothing to do with you, Rooster, switching topics mid thread.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: rooster on December 30, 2015, 08:08:16 PM
I don't think that turning over to the light side means that Vader now gets to go to Jedi Heaven or that it absolves him of his past evils.  I've always taken it to mean that he is now drawing his powers from the light side.  Simple as that.  If he were to stand trial, he would still be guilty, it's just that he's no longer evil (at the moment).
Dude, seriously. I was not talking about in movie shit. I was talking about how fans of the Star Wars series like Vader when he's an evil motherfucker.

Anyone who says they're a fan of the "dark side" is just a try-hard ass. They are modeled after Nazis and fucking murder millions of innocent people. If you seriously are a fan of that then you're crazy.

Well, Dude, seriously, when you inexplicably and ambiguously switch context with your replies people don't realize that and assume that you're talking about the topic at hand.


PS: Please don't take that comment out of context, I was actually talking to someone else, about something else, that has nothing to do with you, Rooster, switching topics mid thread.
I never switched context. I think someone just assumed I meant in world... and I corrected them on it already.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Pongo on December 30, 2015, 08:17:24 PM
I'm game for conceding the point in the interest of getting back on topic.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Lord Dave on December 31, 2015, 10:30:08 AM
Yeah, there was this scene on Dagobah:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=infZSKB5L9I

Of course, this provides probably the strongest evidence of all of how much the prequels fucked up by overemphasizing flashy combat and lightsaber acrobatics as being the main role of a Jedi.  You know you've gone way off-base when lines like "Your weapons...you will not need them," have been replaced with stupid shit like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LH2-Ha6PgpA
Luke did do a flip...

And I always took the "Your weapons... you will not need them" as "You're going to have a mind trip.  There is nothing that can hurt you there."
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Rushy on January 01, 2016, 02:46:02 AM
Ren was powerful enough to force stop a blaster bolt mid-flight; why didn't he just force choke Finn to death? Finn had no force powers and would have no defense against that attack.

There were multiple parts in there movie in which Finn should have died but didn't and had other characters save his ass. He is the new Jar-Jar.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Lord Dave on January 01, 2016, 08:14:32 AM
Ren was powerful enough to force stop a blaster bolt mid-flight; why didn't he just force choke Finn to death? Finn had no force powers and would have no defense against that attack.

There were multiple parts in there movie in which Finn should have died but didn't and had other characters save his ass. He is the new Jar-Jar.

Is that really a measure of powerful?  How much "power" do you think is required to stop a low mass bolt of plasma?  Especially if Size Matters Not.  The only power it really requires is prediction and any force user who can block blaster bolts with a lightsaber could predict this and stop it.

As for force choking:  He was angry and injured.  Yes he could have just force chocked him, but I suspect he was just "GGGRRRR!" *swing*.  Heck, he could have force pushed him against a tree.  And unless I'm remembering wrong, that fight wasn't long but it certainly was enough time for Ren to get back up.

And I wouldn't call him the new Jar-Jar.  Finn may be a hero who constantly gets saved, but at least he's not getting out of trouble with very stupid things.  In fact, he's usually the one who gets his ass kicked quickly despite being at least competent in combat. 

Also, I think this movie shows enough evidence that storm trooper aim is poor due to the helmet.  Once removed, their aim improves dramatically.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on January 01, 2016, 03:23:12 PM
Furthermore, the plot of Star Trek was very understandable.

It was, but there were gaping plot-holes, mostly to do with the bad guy and his motivations -- why he waited twenty-odd years to attack Vulcan, etc.

But this isn't a conversation about Trek.

Maybe Saddam is right and I am blaming the wrong guy, but whether it's Abrams himself or the people he has writing/ producing with him, there are a lot of very familiar tropes which seem to emerge from anything that J.J. touches.

Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Roundy on January 03, 2016, 05:38:35 PM
I'm not reading through this entire thread to see what others have had to say.  I saw it yesterday and I enjoyed it.  If FES is the reflection of the rest of the internet that it has tended to be in the past then I am sure some people are complaining that it's too much like the original movie, or that there's too much pandering to the fanbase.

Both arguments are stupid.

I enjoyed it.  I thought the new characters were engaging and I liked the actors playing them.  It was a good story.  Even if it did borrow a little heavily from the original movie, the original movie borrowed heavily from myth, spaghetti westerns, and pulp serials itself, so who cares?  I appreciated that the look of the originals was recaptured by shooting on 35mm film and that those ridiculous digital effects that cluttered the prequels were minimized.  They were never going to please everybody, and certain people (Saddam, for example, or Thork I'm sure) were probably looking for things to nitpick the whole time they were watching the movie.  That's fine; everybody thinks they're a critic.  I left the theater satisfied and looking forward to seeing where they're going with the story and that's what matters to me.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Saddam Hussein on January 03, 2016, 07:35:12 PM
>doesn't bother reading the thread

>assumes I disliked it

okay dude
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Pongo on January 03, 2016, 07:52:07 PM
I just watched Episode IV and its soooooooo unrealistic that Luke completely believes in the force after like 30 min and then a few hours later uses these skills (THAT HE JUST LEARNED!!!!) to blow up the Death Star. I hope this doesn't set the tone for any future sequels.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Roundy on January 04, 2016, 08:11:53 AM
>assumes I disliked it

When did I do that?  All I really said was that you would have looked for things to nitpick about it, and I have like eight years of history backing me up on that.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: beardo on January 04, 2016, 08:36:06 AM
sadaam nitpicks everything
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Saddam Hussein on January 04, 2016, 01:32:17 PM
>assumes I disliked it

When did I do that?  All I really said was that you would have looked for things to nitpick about it, and I have like eight years of history backing me up on that.

ur retartet but u donut even no it and i walnut tell u y

Also, your odd defense of the repeated elements in this film by pointing to the original trilogy's influences is ridiculous.  Pretty much every story in this day and age is going to be influenced by something, but most people - especially younger audiences - would have very little familiarity with spaghetti westerns and goofy capeshit serials.  There's no comparison between a movie being derivative of sources like those and a movie being derivative of one of the most successful movies of all time, which it also happens to be a direct sequel to.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Rama Set on January 04, 2016, 04:29:15 PM
>assumes I disliked it

When did I do that?  All I really said was that you would have looked for things to nitpick about it, and I have like eight years of history backing me up on that.

ur retartet but u donut even no it and i walnut tell u y

Also, your odd defense of the repeated elements in this film by pointing to the original trilogy's influences is ridiculous.  Pretty much every story in this day and age is going to be influenced by something, but most people - especially younger audiences - would have very little familiarity with spaghetti westerns and those goofy capeshit serials.  There's no comparison between a movie being derivative of sources like them and a movie being derivative of one of the most successful movies of all time, which it also happens to be a direct sequel to.

The point is that every plot and story is a derivative and the amount of original material does not directly correlate to the quality of the film.  You can have the simplest, most well-known story still be incredibly engaging, moving and entertaining.  You can have a complete rehashing of a story be even better than the original, something we accept readily in music but seem caught up on in film for some reason.

As I see it, the new star wars movie is not good because it has a really refreshing or original feeling plot, but because of the integrity of the character's and it's commitment to telling their story along with a beautiful design.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Roundy on January 04, 2016, 06:53:36 PM
>assumes I disliked it

When did I do that?  All I really said was that you would have looked for things to nitpick about it, and I have like eight years of history backing me up on that.

ur retartet but u donut even no it and i walnut tell u y

Also, your odd defense of the repeated elements in this film by pointing to the original trilogy's influences is ridiculous.  Pretty much every story in this day and age is going to be influenced by something, but most people - especially younger audiences - would have very little familiarity with spaghetti westerns and those goofy capeshit serials.  There's no comparison between a movie being derivative of sources like them and a movie being derivative of one of the most successful movies of all time, which it also happens to be a direct sequel to.

It is not uncommon for the same themes and motifs to continue popping up in the same series of stories.  Some would even say it's expected.  For a saga like this, that some elements from the original story would be repeated was absolutely inevitable. 

Like Rama Set said it's how they use those themes and motifs that matters, and I think the new movie was successful enough in its creation of engaging new characters (characters that really bear little resemblance beyond some very superficial comparisons to those in the original) that it worked.

My main criticism of the movie is that its story depends maybe a bit too much on coincidence on top of coincidence, but that's also been something of a mainstay of the movies in the past, and to some extent to films/storytelling in general, and once the story got rolling it didn't even seem to matter.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on January 04, 2016, 07:36:46 PM
I'm not reading through this entire thread to see what others have had to say.  I saw it yesterday and I enjoyed it.  If FES is the reflection of the rest of the internet that it has tended to be in the past then I am sure some people are complaining that it's too much like the original movie, or that there's too much pandering to the fanbase.

Both arguments are stupid.

I enjoyed it.  I thought the new characters were engaging and I liked the actors playing them.  It was a good story.  Even if it did borrow a little heavily from the original movie, the original movie borrowed heavily from myth, spaghetti westerns, and pulp serials itself, so who cares?  I appreciated that the look of the originals was recaptured by shooting on 35mm film and that those ridiculous digital effects that cluttered the prequels were minimized.  They were never going to please everybody, and certain people (Saddam, for example, or Thork I'm sure) were probably looking for things to nitpick the whole time they were watching the movie.  That's fine; everybody thinks they're a critic.  I left the theater satisfied and looking forward to seeing where they're going with the story and that's what matters to me.

I'm not going to read this whole post to see what you had to say, in fact, I'm going to assume that like some parts of the internet, you thought that it was the best film or the saga but you wished that they had white, male actors playing the lead roles.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Roundy on January 04, 2016, 07:47:28 PM
I'm not reading through this entire thread to see what others have had to say.  I saw it yesterday and I enjoyed it.  If FES is the reflection of the rest of the internet that it has tended to be in the past then I am sure some people are complaining that it's too much like the original movie, or that there's too much pandering to the fanbase.

Both arguments are stupid.

I enjoyed it.  I thought the new characters were engaging and I liked the actors playing them.  It was a good story.  Even if it did borrow a little heavily from the original movie, the original movie borrowed heavily from myth, spaghetti westerns, and pulp serials itself, so who cares?  I appreciated that the look of the originals was recaptured by shooting on 35mm film and that those ridiculous digital effects that cluttered the prequels were minimized.  They were never going to please everybody, and certain people (Saddam, for example, or Thork I'm sure) were probably looking for things to nitpick the whole time they were watching the movie.  That's fine; everybody thinks they're a critic.  I left the theater satisfied and looking forward to seeing where they're going with the story and that's what matters to me.

I'm not going to read this whole post to see what you had to say, in fact, I'm going to assume that like some parts of the internet, you thought that it was the best film or the saga but you wished that they had white, male actors playing the lead roles.

Did my lack of willingness to read a seven-page thread through bother you?  My apologies.  In fact I did cheat a little bit.  I read the first few posts, but I wasn't willing to spend the time it would take reading everything before giving my own opinion.

Anyway, chicks should always be love interests; it's just right.  But at least they made the black guy mostly ineffectual.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Lord Dave on January 04, 2016, 08:27:44 PM
On the plus side, I think we've stumbled onto something.

Storm Troopers had terrible aim because of the helmet.  Once Finn got the bucket off, he was mowing down those troopers like he was a main cast member.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on January 04, 2016, 08:31:00 PM
Quote
Did my lack of willingness to read a seven-page thread through bother you?

No, but to comment on opinions you haven't read did.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Pongo on January 04, 2016, 09:10:21 PM
Quote
Did my lack of willingness to read a seven-page thread through bother you?

No, but to comment on opinions you haven't read did.

It's okay Chris, I'm sure Roundy read my posts.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Roundy on January 04, 2016, 09:16:04 PM
Quote
Did my lack of willingness to read a seven-page thread through bother you?

No, but to comment on opinions you haven't read did.

As I pointed out, I have read those opinions.  Just not necessarily in this thread.  I didn't single anybody out but Saddam and Thork, and even them only extremely abstractly based on their past actions (they will both look for things to argue about on any topic, we both know this I'm sure, Saddam in particular when it comes to mass media and even more in particular when it comes to fanboyish mass media), and not in regards to any specific opinions about the movie.

Anyway back for about twenty-four hours and already ruffling feathers!  Whoot!
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Thork on January 05, 2016, 12:04:17 AM
Inventor of the rage smiley!  >o<


You are not the inventor of the rage smiley! >o<
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Roundy on January 05, 2016, 04:35:21 AM
Inventor of the rage smiley!  >o<


You are not the inventor of the rage smiley! >o<

Prove it!  >o<
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: markjo on January 05, 2016, 04:50:14 AM
You guys realise that training in the movie-verse basically means understanding the force better, right? Not actual lightsaber training. Luke never used his saber once on Dagobah.
Incorrect.  In the movie, Luke used his light saber against Darth Vader in the tree cave.  Also, in the book version, Yoda tosses a bar into the air for Luke to cut into as many pieces as he can.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Rama Set on January 05, 2016, 05:51:49 AM
You guys realise that training in the movie-verse basically means understanding the force better, right? Not actual lightsaber training. Luke never used his saber once on Dagobah.
Incorrect.  In the movie, Luke used his light saber against Darth Vader in the tree cave.  Also, in the book version, Yoda tosses a bar into the air for Luke to cut into as many pieces as he can.

Seeing as Vader was not on Dagobah, it is not unreasonable to think that the lightsaber was also a vision.  It is also aside from the matter of his training.  In the movie, he was never trained with his lightsaber on Dagobah.

Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: beardo on January 05, 2016, 06:25:58 AM
How do you know?
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Vindictus on January 05, 2016, 06:55:41 AM
It was, but there were gaping plot-holes, mostly to do with the bad guy and his motivations -- why he waited twenty-odd years to attack Vulcan, etc

Off topic, but wasn't he waiting for Spock? Not a plot hole.

You guys realise that training in the movie-verse basically means understanding the force better, right? Not actual lightsaber training. Luke never used his saber once on Dagobah.
Incorrect.  In the movie, Luke used his light saber against Darth Vader in the tree cave.  Also, in the book version, Yoda tosses a bar into the air for Luke to cut into as many pieces as he can.

The tree cave wasn't real, you numpty. Besides which, the purpose of the saber was as a plot device (to reveal luke's face). Also books are not canon.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Roundy on January 05, 2016, 07:00:05 AM
I kind of feel like it should be pointed out that unless Luke's training took half an hour we couldn't have possibly seen it in its entirety.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Vindictus on January 05, 2016, 07:21:30 AM
I kind of feel like it should be pointed out that unless Luke's training took half an hour we couldn't have possibly seen it in its entirety.

This whole line of arguing comes from me defending Rey and her ability to beat Ren, despite being less trained with a saber.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Lord Dave on January 05, 2016, 07:25:37 AM
I kind of feel like it should be pointed out that unless Luke's training took half an hour we couldn't have possibly seen it in its entirety.

Luke learned how to lift rocks and had the "Talk".  What more is there to the Force?  He never even finished his training or returned to Yoda before the last time in RotJ and yet not only became a Jedi but was powerful enough to defeat Vader.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: beardo on January 05, 2016, 07:57:34 AM
I kind of feel like it should be pointed out that unless Luke's training took half an hour we couldn't have possibly seen it in its entirety.

This whole line of arguing comes from me defending Rey and her ability to beat Ren, despite being less trained with a saber.
Ren was severely injured and too angry to properly concentrate. That's why he lost.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Vindictus on January 05, 2016, 08:39:42 AM
I kind of feel like it should be pointed out that unless Luke's training took half an hour we couldn't have possibly seen it in its entirety.

This whole line of arguing comes from me defending Rey and her ability to beat Ren, despite being less trained with a saber.
Ren was severely injured and too angry to properly concentrate. That's why he lost.

Yes, that's the side of the argument I took.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on January 05, 2016, 11:00:36 AM
Quote
Off topic, but wasn't he waiting for Spock? Not a plot hole.


Prime!Spock lives in his ice-cave for years before Nero attacks Vulcan and Young!Spock has been serving in Starfleet for years (I was going to say Long enough to be put in charge of the Flagship, but since Starfleet gives Kirk command of it for being a stowaway, maybe Young!Spock picked up his uniform the day before yesterday)

Either way, the reason Nero really waits is so that Kirk and Co. can stop him in the Enterprise but there isn't a satisfactory reason to have him twiddling his thumbs for nigh-on 20 years unless you've read the comic tie-in.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Saddam Hussein on January 05, 2016, 12:43:40 PM
I already talked about the tree cave scene!  Which was real.  Obviously Vader wasn't really there, but Luke did bring his lightsaber in there, and he did use it.  I don't really have a problem with supposing that some of Yoda's training might have involved use of a lightsaber, but it's pretty clear from both what we saw and what Yoda said that it wouldn't have been the focus.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on January 05, 2016, 07:26:21 PM
There's plot holes everywhere. It's called "mystery".

Just grow up and accept that you'll never understand everything.

This is the only story type I expect gaping plot-holes is something like this where there are more holes than plot by design:
(http://static1.squarespace.com/static/51e7119ae4b01c2e6a200e01/t/54eb9f23e4b03ce768b59926/1424727845212/)
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Pongo on January 05, 2016, 09:01:25 PM
I kind of feel like it should be pointed out that unless Luke's training took half an hour we couldn't have possibly seen it in its entirety.

This whole line of arguing comes from me defending Rey and her ability to beat Ren, despite being less trained with a saber.
Ren was severely injured and too angry to properly concentrate. That's why he lost.

Probably hangry if truth be told.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Saddam Hussein on January 11, 2016, 05:00:06 PM
Abrams talking about the common criticism of TFA being overly-derivative:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/race/awards-chatter-podcast-jj-abrams-853171

He does make some good points, mainly that the characters were different enough to make the movie feel fresh, despite its familiar plot.  It's interesting how he repeatedly downplays the importance of the dumb Starkiller thing, almost as if he agrees that it was unnecessary.  I wonder if Disney insisted that he include it.

In other news, remember this, ahem, "leak"?

https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/comments/2nyd64/rumor_potential_4chan_episode_vii_leak_possible/
https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/comments/2o4hhp/rumor_potential_4chan_episode_vii_leak_part_2/

If this is legit, then there's a very good chance the film will end up being actually good.

lol@bullshit
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Roundy on January 11, 2016, 09:36:53 PM
He does make some good points, mainly that the characters were different enough to make the movie feel fresh, despite its familiar plot.

Oh, you don't say. 

Quote
It's interesting how he repeatedly downplays the importance of the dumb Starkiller thing, almost as if he agrees that it was unnecessary.  I wonder if Disney insisted that he include it.

Certainly possible, but unreasonable to assume.  My take on his comments on the Starkiller thing is that while it does go back to the well, it's used to further the story and the development of the characters in a fresh and invigorating way.

Quote
'cause we all know it's gonna blow up. What you really care about is what's gonna happen in the forest between these two characters who are now alone."
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Saddam Hussein on January 12, 2016, 12:35:50 AM
But it's not really used to further the story or develop the characters, at least not the planet-destroying part of it.  Han and Finn went there to rescue Rey, not to destroy or sabotage it.  The fact that it's about to destroy the Resistance's base is at best just peripheral to the main conflict with the characters, and at worst a distraction.  They could have taken that part out with only minor changes to the third act, and they probably should have.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Roundy on January 12, 2016, 12:58:00 AM
They could have taken that part out with only minor changes to the third act, and they probably should have.

But why?  Is it bad storytelling to set what is meaningful to the main story against the backdrop of a larger conflict?  The story isn't *just* about Finn and Rey and Kylo Ren.  That there's a war going on is fairly important, and it would have been more of a mistake to just gloss over that.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: DuckDodgers on January 12, 2016, 04:17:46 PM
Han and Finn went there to rescue Rey, not to destroy or sabotage it.
There was a scene where the Resistance was detailing how to destroy the base and they needed to findicate a way to drop the shields to allow the X-wings to attack the oscillator.  The only reason Finn was sent was the fact that he was previously stationed at the base and said he could drop the shields, Han flew him there because no one else is crazy enough to drop out of hyperspace within the atmosphere of a planet to get through the sub-light shields. Han doesn't even know Finn is exaggerating his story until they are about ready to enter the base and drop the shields.  He even makes a comment that people are counting their lives on Finn being able to do what he said he could. This is evidenced by them handling the shield before going after Rey. To say they had no intention of sabotaging Starkiller Base is absolutely wrong.  That was the main reason for them to go there.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: rooster on January 12, 2016, 04:18:54 PM
Gah Saddam, did you even watch the movie?!
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Saddam Hussein on January 13, 2016, 04:24:11 AM
But why?  Is it bad storytelling to set what is meaningful to the main story against the backdrop of a larger conflict?  The story isn't *just* about Finn and Rey and Kylo Ren.  That there's a war going on is fairly important, and it would have been more of a mistake to just gloss over that.

The war itself is fine, but they didn't need to cram yet another planet-destroying superweapon into the series, especially when there wasn't enough time to really do it justice.  The base that the final battle was set in could have been used for, well, anything else.  Training and indoctrinating stormtroopers.  Manufacturing weapons.  Spying on the Resistance.  The threat of planetary destruction has been done to death by now, and I'm concerned that they'll cheapen it if they rely on it too much.

There was a scene where the Resistance was detailing how to destroy the base and they needed to findicate a way to drop the shields to allow the X-wings to attack the oscillator.  The only reason Finn was sent was the fact that he was previously stationed at the base and said he could drop the shields, Han flew him there because no one else is crazy enough to drop out of hyperspace within the atmosphere of a planet to get through the sub-light shields. Han doesn't even know Finn is exaggerating his story until they are about ready to enter the base and drop the shields.  He even makes a comment that people are counting their lives on Finn being able to do what he said he could. This is evidenced by them handling the shield before going after Rey. To say they had no intention of sabotaging Starkiller Base is absolutely wrong.  That was the main reason for them to go there.

I must have forgotten about that, but in my defense, there isn't much screentime devoted to showing them sabotaging the base, as the movie (wisely) focused on Rey's escape and the confrontation with Ren instead.  It really just goes to show how tacked-on that subplot was.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: rooster on January 13, 2016, 01:17:33 PM
There was a scene where the Resistance was detailing how to destroy the base and they needed to findicate a way to drop the shields to allow the X-wings to attack the oscillator.  The only reason Finn was sent was the fact that he was previously stationed at the base and said he could drop the shields, Han flew him there because no one else is crazy enough to drop out of hyperspace within the atmosphere of a planet to get through the sub-light shields. Han doesn't even know Finn is exaggerating his story until they are about ready to enter the base and drop the shields.  He even makes a comment that people are counting their lives on Finn being able to do what he said he could. This is evidenced by them handling the shield before going after Rey. To say they had no intention of sabotaging Starkiller Base is absolutely wrong.  That was the main reason for them to go there.

I must have forgotten about that, but in my defense, there isn't much screentime devoted to showing them sabotaging the base, as the movie (wisely) focused on Rey's escape and the confrontation with Ren instead.  It really just goes to show how tacked-on that subplot was.
So you don't remember Chewie and Han sticking all those explosives to the base? This would have been before Rey and Ren left the base.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: beardo on January 13, 2016, 02:31:26 PM
Saddam only remembers the parts he needs to remember in order to complain about it.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Pongo on January 13, 2016, 02:53:19 PM
I must have forgotten about that, but in my defense, there isn't much screentime devoted to showing them sabotaging the base, as the movie (wisely) focused on Rey's escape and the confrontation with Ren instead.  It really just goes to show how tacked-on that subplot was.

If I forgot the part of Forest Gump where he was in Vietnam, could I rightfully use my forgetting as a reason to justify that, that part of the movie was, "tacked-on?"
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Saddam Hussein on January 13, 2016, 03:33:15 PM
So you don't remember Chewie and Han sticking all those explosives to the base? This would have been before Rey and Ren left the base.

I do, but like I said, the movie doesn't spend much time dwelling on that, because it knows that what we care about are the characters, not the mission to destroy the base.

If I forgot the part of Forest Gump where he was in Vietnam, could I rightfully use my forgetting as a reason to justify that, that part of the movie was, "tacked-on?"

This isn't even remotely comparable to what I said.

Saddam only remembers the parts he needs to remember in order to complain about it.

Thanks for this.  It really added a lot to the discussion.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Rama Set on January 13, 2016, 03:35:13 PM
I do, but like I said, the movie doesn't spend much time dwelling on that, because it knows that what we care about are the characters, not the mission to destroy the base.
So in your mind, not dwelling on something is the equivalent of it being tacked on?
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: EnigmaZV on January 13, 2016, 10:13:51 PM
I think it was convenient that they just happen to blow up every planet in the solar system except for the one Leia was on.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: beardo on January 13, 2016, 10:43:01 PM
What I think is weird is that this movie shows Han fire Chewies bowcaster for his first time. They've been partners for more than half his life and they've never been in a situation where he might have needed to use it up until now?
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Lord Dave on January 13, 2016, 11:30:20 PM
I think it was convenient that they just happen to blow up every planet in the solar system except for the one Leia was on.

I think she was in a different system.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Saddam Hussein on January 15, 2016, 02:28:05 AM
On the notion of Snoke - I remember being really excited when I saw how huge he was, and then disappointed when I realized that it was just a hologram.  I'd love for him to turn out to actually be that size when we finally see him in person, although I sadly doubt it.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Rama Set on January 15, 2016, 02:39:54 AM
On the notion of Snoke - I remember being really excited when I saw huge he was, and then disappointed when I realized that it was just a hologram.  I'd love for him to turn out to actually be that size when we finally see him in person, although I sadly doubt it.

I liked it at first, then thought it was a bit much and was relieved when it was a hologram.  I thought it would have been a little too absurd for me to suspend my disbelief.  But I think they could make him like 12ft tall in person and it would be very impressive too.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Roundy on January 15, 2016, 02:41:18 AM
On the notion of Snoke - I remember being really excited when I saw huge he was, and then disappointed when I realized that it was just a hologram.  I'd love for him to turn out to actually be that size when we finally see him in person, although I sadly doubt it.

I'm afraid he's going to turn out to be, like, a dwarf when we see him in person.  It would be so cliched if they go that way.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Pongo on January 15, 2016, 03:11:14 AM
On the notion of Snoke - I remember being really excited when I saw huge he was, and then disappointed when I realized that it was just a hologram.  I'd love for him to turn out to actually be that size when we finally see him in person, although I sadly doubt it.

>Preparing to criticize a movie years before it comes out.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Blanko on January 19, 2016, 05:21:04 PM
Having finally seen this film, I wrote a review in Just Watched. Not gonna post it twice so here it is. (http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=700.msg86189#msg86189) If you want to discuss my review, do it in this thread instead of that one.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: EnigmaZV on January 19, 2016, 08:46:24 PM
I think it was convenient that they just happen to blow up every planet in the solar system except for the one Leia was on.

I think she was in a different system.

Couldn't have been. Our nearest star system is 4 light years away. Even if the  system was 4 times closer (the distance from the sun to the Oort Cloud) It would still take a year for the explosions to be seen.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Rama Set on January 19, 2016, 09:03:02 PM
I think it was convenient that they just happen to blow up every planet in the solar system except for the one Leia was on.

I think she was in a different system.

Couldn't have been. Our nearest star system is 4 light years away. Even if the  system was 4 times closer (the distance from the sun to the Oort Cloud) It would still take a year for the explosions to be seen.

True, but I think the first shot blew up the planet and it's 4(?) moons.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Blanko on January 19, 2016, 09:32:55 PM
Star Wars has always had a very skewed sense of distances. Realistically the starkiller base shots should take years to even find a target. But then again, ships can move between systems in hours at "light speed"...

I guess it's just one of those things you're not supposed to think about too much.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Lord Dave on January 20, 2016, 01:34:59 AM
Star Wars has always had a very skewed sense of distances. Realistically the starkiller base shots should take years to even find a target. But then again, ships can move between systems in hours at "light speed"...

I guess it's just one of those things you're not supposed to think about too much.

They explained that.  It traveled via hyperspace.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on January 20, 2016, 09:02:04 AM
I agree entirely with Blanko's review.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: rooster on January 20, 2016, 04:35:32 PM
Star Wars has never been one for science, which is why it's actually fantasy.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: EnigmaZV on January 20, 2016, 09:26:52 PM
They could have simply seen the beam go by (it was traveling FTL, so that's cool I suppose) and then one of the background characters could have informed Leia that they've lost contact with all the planets in X system, because FTL communication is a thing in Star Wars.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Thork on January 21, 2016, 12:48:58 PM
Star Wars VIII is now delayed until December 2017. :(

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-35368146
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Lord Dave on January 21, 2016, 01:09:55 PM
Star Wars VIII is now delayed until December 2017. :(

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-35368146 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-35368146)

The opening crawl for Episode VIII

"Two years after the destruction of Star Killer Base..."
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Saddam Hussein on January 21, 2016, 04:06:43 PM
On the notion of Thork's nonsense from the other thread:

Disney had to go down the interracial relationship route. There isn't a single eligible white guy in the universe. Only a black guy is virtuous and loyal and would stand up to the empire and is worth the leading lady's attention. Fuck Disney.

While Finn is obviously into Rey (and who can blame him, amirite?), it's not like they had a romantic relationship in this movie.  They might later on in the series, but until that happens, complaining about this seems awfully premature.  Maybe Finn and Poe will have the relationship instead!  A gay interracial romance!
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Rama Set on January 21, 2016, 04:30:32 PM
Thork can't stand when its not about the white guys.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Pongo on January 21, 2016, 04:58:30 PM
On the notion of Thork's nonsense from the other thread:

Disney had to go down the interracial relationship route. There isn't a single eligible white guy in the universe. Only a black guy is virtuous and loyal and would stand up to the empire and is worth the leading lady's attention. Fuck Disney.

While Finn is obviously into Rey (and who can blame him, amirite?), it's not like they had a romantic relationship in this movie.  They might later on in the series, but until that happens, complaining about this seems awfully premature.  Maybe Finn and Poe will have the relationship instead!  A gay interracial romance!

omg, don't talk about gay people around Ghost Spaghetti or he'll remind us again about how many gay friends he has.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Thork on January 22, 2016, 12:00:27 AM
On the notion of Thork's nonsense from the other thread:

Disney had to go down the interracial relationship route. There isn't a single eligible white guy in the universe. Only a black guy is virtuous and loyal and would stand up to the empire and is worth the leading lady's attention. Fuck Disney.

While Finn is obviously into Rey (and who can blame him, amirite?),
Depends on your taste in women. Bit horsey for me.
(http://cdn0.dailydot.com/cache/1f/05/1f05aaf6908e795dc36056cab1da067e.jpg)

it's not like they had a romantic relationship in this movie.  They might later on in the series, but until that happens, complaining about this seems awfully premature.  Maybe Finn and Poe will have the relationship instead!  A gay interracial romance!
She kisses him before she leaves to find Luke at the end. I don't think star wars are going to be able to pull off this trick again.
(http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/1/1c/Leia_luke_kiss.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/200?cb=20070114235637)
There is no way they are even half-brother/sister.

No, we're stuck watching a black guy pawing a white girl again. If we are going to be all liberal about it, why doesn't she end up with Chewy? He's tall, strong, reliable, single, no kids, an eligible Batchelor, and nice to cuddle at night. Why can't she end up blowing the wookie at the end of star wars viii?


Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Rama Set on January 22, 2016, 01:12:00 AM
Better yet, why even treat a potential romance as a political issue at all?

Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: garygreen on January 22, 2016, 02:24:45 AM
it bothers me to see white women with niggers

i'd respect you more if you'd actually say what you mean.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Saddam Hussein on January 22, 2016, 03:57:25 AM
Depends on your taste in women. Bit horsey for me.

(http://i.imgur.com/H3qDsBL.jpg)

Quote
She kisses him before she leaves to find Luke at the end.

She kissed his forehead.  It was affectionate, but not necessarily romantic.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Lord Dave on January 22, 2016, 07:04:26 AM
She kissed his forehead.  It was affectionate, but not necessarily romantic.

Star Wars VIII: The Friend Zone
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Rushy on January 24, 2016, 05:15:53 PM
Rey is a butch lesbo
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: beardo on January 24, 2016, 07:27:49 PM
giggity
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Shane on January 24, 2016, 07:31:18 PM
I would
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Lord Dave on January 25, 2016, 12:23:23 AM
Rey is a butch lesbo

So her and plasma will have a love story?
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Снупс on January 25, 2016, 07:23:12 AM
God I want it to be true
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: beardo on January 25, 2016, 11:22:57 AM
God I want it to be true
But neither of them are bishies!
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Saddam Hussein on February 18, 2016, 02:02:47 AM
It always bothered me how [clones] were treated the same as droids despite being living, breathing humans.
It's a fictional story. ???

Don't be that guy, Thork.  Of course it's all fiction.  That doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't react to the story and be invested in its world.
Title: Re: Star Wars ep 7 (with spoilers)
Post by: Thork on May 01, 2016, 11:56:08 PM
Ok, then enjoy the Karaoke version.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uD51cdLbZJc