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Offline Rama Set

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Should Mods Be Held to Higher Standard
« on: December 16, 2013, 06:58:01 PM »
In light of Rooster's recent thread in S & C, I wanted to have a general conversation about the behavior of mods.  I have always felt that a moderator should be setting an example for the other posters on the site.  They ostensibly exist not only to enforce the rules, but also to be the mediator between the administrators rules and the people who post.  As such, I feel their understanding and application of the rules should be of a greater magnitude than anyone on the site.  I definitely believe that you cannot ask someone to respect rules you yourself do not obey, but this belief is obviously not ubiquitous and I wanted to know what the feelings on the site are towards possibly creating a moderator's code of conduct?
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Offline Shane

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Re: Should Mods Be Held to Higher Standard
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2013, 07:18:58 PM »
That's one problem i had with PPs post, that a mods posting and moderation are two separate issues, i disagree. I too believe mods should set an example. I have no problems with jroa, or any mod right now, but i don't like that mentality
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Should Mods Be Held to Higher Standard
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2013, 07:23:46 PM »
And a mods posting intersects quite nicely with their duties if/when they break rules and do not moderate themselves. That is why I think they have to be held to a higher standard, because if they are not self-moderating then they are failing at their job.

I am not trying to say a mod should feel their role is onerous, just that if they take the role on they should obviously take the application of whatever rules are in place very seriously, and I believe that applies to their own posting.
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Re: Should Mods Be Held to Higher Standard
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2013, 08:28:23 PM »
I did suggest a while ago that admins can't mod. Then mods make the decisions and admins are arbitrators only once a mod screws up.

Who moderates the admins? Well I haven't a solution to that. That's kind of the point of the Zetetic council. To stop any individual becoming unaccountable.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 08:32:57 PM by Thork »

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Offline markjo

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Re: Should Mods Be Held to Higher Standard
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2013, 08:36:45 PM »
Who moderates the admins? Well I haven't a solution to that. That's kind of the point of the Zetetic council. To stop any individual becoming unaccountable.
Does that mean that mods and/or admins should be excluded from the Zetetic Council so as to prevent a conflict of interest in this regard?
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Should Mods Be Held to Higher Standard
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2013, 08:38:14 PM »
if they take the role on they should obviously take the application of whatever rules are in place very seriously, and I believe that applies to their own posting.
They should. That doesn't mean they will always succeed. It is virtually impossible to view one's own posts objectively - that's partially why we have multiple moderators. If one of them fails to obey the rules, there are others to put him back in order. A moderator breaking a rule now and then is no grounds to immediately demand to demod them - that would only be reasonable if their moderation was at fault.

They are still human beings, and they are still allowed the same amount of grace as anyone else. Applying a stricter standard to them would likely violate and restrict their freedom of expression. They shouldn't need to worry about breaking rules any more (nor any less) than anyone else here.

possibly creating a moderator's code of conduct?
One already exists and is being enforced. I feel it's fair as it is, and point 5 covers this situation. The same rules apply equivalently to all members. This means you, me, jroa, even Baby Jesus. Mods are expected to follow rules and will be disciplined if they fail, just like anyone else. Not more, not less.

Does that mean that mods and/or admins should be excluded from the Zetetic Council so as to prevent a conflict of interest in this regard?
Yes, we already said admins will not take council seats, by our own decision. The fact that people are still nominating us is, well, their own issue.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 08:47:02 PM by pizaaplanet »
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Should Mods Be Held to Higher Standard
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2013, 09:03:17 PM »
I definitely do not think that Mods need to be utter paragons, to be sure.  That being said, if Mods do not show the same grace, then they cannot expect the same treatment in return.

Thanks for the reply pizaa, my concerns are satisfied.
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Offline Tau

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Re: Should Mods Be Held to Higher Standard
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2013, 02:23:23 AM »
With great power comes great responsibility and whatnot. The mods are generally the most respected members of the forum. They should have to be respectable, moreso than others. Certainly it shouldn't be too strict, but if a mod starts acting like EJ it should be grounds for demodding. Anything stricter than that is probably unnecessary. We do want people to actually take the job, remember.
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Offline Roundy

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Re: Should Mods Be Held to Higher Standard
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2013, 02:34:19 AM »
I definitely agree that mods should be held to the same standards they expect of others.  Even higher, actually.  I am actually a model example.  Sure, I kid around sometimes, but on the old site, when I first became a mod my posting habits changed.  It was maybe not entirely visible (because you really only see what's there and gloss over what isn't) but I noticed it.  There have been times that I wanted to post something inappropriate, but didn't out of respect for the position I was entrusted with.  It was a sacrifice a small part of me always regretted, but just the same that I felt it only right that I make.
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Re: Should Mods Be Held to Higher Standard
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2013, 02:56:45 AM »
In light of Rooster's recent thread in S & C, I wanted to have a general conversation about the behavior of mods.  I have always felt that a moderator should be setting an example for the other posters on the site.  They ostensibly exist not only to enforce the rules, but also to be the mediator between the administrators rules and the people who post.  As such, I feel their understanding and application of the rules should be of a greater magnitude than anyone on the site.  I definitely believe that you cannot ask someone to respect rules you yourself do not obey, but this belief is obviously not ubiquitous and I wanted to know what the feelings on the site are towards possibly creating a moderator's code of conduct?
Some bitches need to relax. This is a forum about the Earth being flat. Chill the fuck out, it's not srs bzns. The mods should be able to post however they want: I don't want them to stifle their posting because someone might get butthurt at a comment. If the moderators are actually making the site shittier, like banning legitimate users, moving funny awesome posts by a very sexy celebrity to CN, or going full Hara, then we can bitch about it. Until then, accept that FES isn't filtered through your personal social and cultural lenses before being presented to you. Some people will say some things you don't agree with, and it's okay if that happens. Hell, you're even allowed to respond to it.
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Offline Roundy

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Re: Should Mods Be Held to Higher Standard
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2013, 02:59:46 AM »
Some bitches need to relax. This is a forum about the Earth being flat. Chill the fuck out, it's not srs bzns.

Um, exsqueeze me?  How can a forum about something so important be anything but serious business?
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Offline markjo

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Re: Should Mods Be Held to Higher Standard
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2013, 03:31:58 AM »
The mods are generally the most respected members of the forum.
Why does it seem like that quote belongs in a Monster Fail thread?

The mods should be able to post however they want: I don't want them to stifle their posting because someone might get butthurt at a comment.
I agree.  The mods should be able to post however they want.  Just as long as it's within the established rules and guidelines of the forum.  As I recall, the one rule that everyone (including all of the mods) agreed to is to not be a dick.  Call me a prude, but I would contend that going out of one's way to butthurt someone could be considered being a dick.
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Offline Tau

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Re: Should Mods Be Held to Higher Standard
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2013, 03:48:45 AM »
The mods are generally the most respected members of the forum.
Why does it seem like that quote belongs in a Monster Fail thread?


Well, to the noobs anyway.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Should Mods Be Held to Higher Standard
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2013, 05:34:59 AM »
Why does it seem like that quote belongs in a Monster Fail thread?
Because you used to be a mod, and we all remember.

Sure, I kid around sometimes, but on the old site, when I first became a mod my posting habits changed.  It was maybe not entirely visible (because you really only see what's there and gloss over what isn't) but I noticed it.  There have been times that I wanted to post something inappropriate, but didn't out of respect for the position I was entrusted with.  It was a sacrifice a small part of me always regretted, but just the same that I felt it only right that I make.
This is exactly what we are preventing. Mods will not be oppressed as posters. Minor infractions will be just as fine (or not fine) coming from mods as from any other poster.

Yes, if someone goes full EJ, they'll get demodded. No, jroa offending someone once in a blue moon is not any bigger a deal than Yaakov offending a couple of people with his kill-all-Muslims controversies. In both cases, they have been warned and asked to pipe it down a bit. If they continue, we'll continue with the process. This shit is simple.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 05:52:36 AM by pizaaplanet »
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Should Mods Be Held to Higher Standard
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2013, 05:58:27 AM »
Holding a mod to a higher standard is not oppressive. In fact it is generally impossible to oppress those that hold the power. Asking them to self-police to a higher standard is one of the safeguards against abuse of power.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Should Mods Be Held to Higher Standard
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2013, 06:02:14 AM »
Asking them to self-police to a higher standard is one of the safeguards against abuse of power.
No, that's done through reviewing their moderation. That is where they hold power. They can't abuse power by being expected to follow the same set of posting rules as everyone else, because they have no additional power as posters.

Holding a mod to a higher standard is not oppressive.
It is too. See Roundy's testimony. His freedom of expression was restricted, and that's oppression.
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Offline Roundy

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Re: Should Mods Be Held to Higher Standard
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2013, 06:11:35 AM »
Holding a mod to a higher standard is not oppressive.
It is too. See Roundy's testimony. His freedom of expression was restricted, and that's oppression.

I guess... But it was self-imposed.  I was never chastised for posting a certain way, I just chose to take what I considered to be a more responsible approach.  Obviously if the admins decide that the mods can post fuck-all that they want to it is not my place to object; I'm perfectly comfortable with Parsifal and pizaaplanet making that particular judgment call themselves.  Their forum, their rules.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Should Mods Be Held to Higher Standard
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2013, 06:19:06 AM »
That's fair, Roundy, and I do think it's a nice thing to do. I just feel that it would be very unfair if we were to impose that upon others. If you want to be a shining example to the community, I'm sure you will be recognised and appreciated as such by all of us. However, as long as you're at least an about-average poster and a competent mod, you shouldn't expect anyone to question your moderation.
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Re: Should Mods Be Held to Higher Standard
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2013, 06:31:58 AM »
There's too much focus on making FES a fair, accountable democracy. It's not a democracy, and never has been. It's always been decided by the whims of our (ranging from benevolent to apathetic) administrators. I don't like all this talk of rights and nonsense.
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Offline Snupes

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Re: Should Mods Be Held to Higher Standard
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2013, 07:16:34 AM »
I don't think should really plays into the equation. Like PP said, as long as they follow the rules, they shouldn't necessarily have to post a certain way. That said, I, for example, am almost definitely not going to be pulling the same kinda bitchy arguments or just general rudeness as I might've used to—but, like Roundy, this is totally voluntary and self-imposed and has nothing to do with what I think a mod "should" be like. It's more about holding myself to a higher standard than thinking it's what I'm "supposed" to do.

That said, I think the most important thing is that mods still be casual and friendly. There is nothing worse than losing members to moderation, where suddenly they don't post as much and make themselves scarce and seem afraid to post regularly as they normally would. Being a mod doesn't make you special. The worst kinds of mods are the ones that get all huffy and develop egos because they have power and get to decide what's "right" and blahblah. That's my least favourite kind of mod.
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