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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Should Mods Be Held to Higher Standard
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2013, 11:58:36 AM »
I think I have been misunderstood: I am not calling for mods to have any special principle or consequence applied to them when they follow the rules. However, there is a difference that, I think, everyone gets, when a mod breaks the rules. It might not matter to some, but it does matter to others and it is a logical and fair point of view. A mod who breaks the rules is extra culpable because they are not just another poster and to pretend otherwise is to ignore that they are the enforcer of the rules and seems absurd. As I have previously said, I am not interested in demanding they be perfect but you should prepare to deal with noobs who come along and think the mods do not have a leg to stand on because the mods are not more sophisticated than the average user when it comes to operating within the rules. I also have to object to the notion that this might be oppressive. Becoming a mod is not something that is forced upon anyone and to expect a greater level of responsibility from those who want a greater level of responsibility is totally natural.

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Offline markjo

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Re: Should Mods Be Held to Higher Standard
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2013, 02:20:22 PM »
Holding a mod to a higher standard is not oppressive.
It is too. See Roundy's testimony. His freedom of expression was restricted, and that's oppression.
No, not really.  Freedom of expression is restricted all the time.  Freedom of speech doesn't mean that you can yell "FIRE" in a crowded movie theater and freedom of expression doesn't mean that you can post porn in a public forum.  Being a mod shouldn't mean that you can be a dick whenever you want.
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Offline junker

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Re: Should Mods Be Held to Higher Standard
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2013, 03:03:14 PM »
Being a mod shouldn't mean that you can be a dick whenever you want.

I guess it is a good thing that nearly everyone is saying that mods should be held to the same rules as members, then.  You know, the only rule you had to accept when joining here.

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Offline Ghost Spaghetti

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Re: Should Mods Be Held to Higher Standard
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2013, 03:54:43 PM »
Wait, what happened?

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Should Mods Be Held to Higher Standard
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2013, 04:01:57 PM »

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Offline la xasop

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Re: Should Mods Be Held to Higher Standard
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2013, 04:10:39 PM »
I think it is a natural fact that mods are held to a different (not necessarily higher) standard than members. Since not every member would be selected for a moderator position, there is some standard by which they have been distinguished from the general member base.

However, this does not imply that their posting must always be exemplary. As PizzaPlanet said, what defines their competence as moderators is their moderation, not their posting. Furthermore, all of us are human and are prone to making mistakes. What is important is that moderators understand the rules, try their best to follow them, and set a good example for others. This is simply a case of them adhering to the standard that is expected of all posters, and will be easier to measure once we have rules.

I also want to clarify the purpose of the Manifesto. The Manifesto governs administration and moderation, not posting; the rules (when they are formalised) will govern posting. In this sense, the moderators are to be held to the same standard (defined by the rules) as everyone else when posting, but to a different standard (defined by the Manifesto) when moderating.

This will all be simpler and easier once we have rules. Please sit tight until then.
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Should Mods Be Held to Higher Standard
« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2013, 04:22:31 PM »
Thanks Parsifal, this was well said.  I want to reiterate again, that I never said that crucifying a mod for breaking the rules is appropriate.

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Offline Sean

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Re: Should Mods Be Held to Higher Standard
« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2013, 04:56:17 PM »
I feel like to regular members, mods are just dudes who also can bam, but to noobs are viewed as representatives of the society more so than regular members, thus their behavior should be viewed more critically, but that's just me.
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Offline rooster

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Re: Should Mods Be Held to Higher Standard
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2013, 06:04:38 PM »
To me it seemed like it always depended on the site. On some forums the mods aren't even normal posters and are just moderators and thus are naturally held to a higher standard.

I think the line between poster and moderator can blur when it seems unprofessional. If a noob shows up and is ridiculed/insulted by a mod then they may view this as a site that doesn't take itself seriously and may not want to come back. Honestly, I was tempted to just leave for good after being mocked and not taken seriously by jroa for the second time. He's had complaint threads before on the other site by newer members who thought that his behavior was not appropriate for a moderator. If a moderator is someone that has trouble following the rules, then what is the standard? And how much say does the common forum poster have in this decision? If someone has a few legitimate complaints made by different people then shouldn't their status be reconsidered?
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 06:06:34 PM by rooster »

Re: Should Mods Be Held to Higher Standard
« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2013, 07:10:59 PM »
This is one of the things a council could decide on.

I do think mods should stick to the rules and represent the rules they're meant to uphold. If they're not then they shouldn't be a mod.

Would it be acceptable for a police officer to commit crimes?




Offline Gayer

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Re: Should Mods Be Held to Higher Standard
« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2013, 07:21:27 PM »
I don't say fuck off to as many people as I'd like to so I guess I hold myself to a slightly higher standard but I think that as long as we do our best to obey the rules (taking into account basic human error as pointed out already) and don't be dicks (as we all agreed to when we joined here) then thats a good enough standard.

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Offline la xasop

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Re: Should Mods Be Held to Higher Standard
« Reply #31 on: December 17, 2013, 07:23:37 PM »
He's had complaint threads before on the other site by newer members who thought that his behavior was not appropriate for a moderator.

I'm not willing to hold misdemeanours on the old forum against anyone here. Their behaviour on this site will speak for itself.

If a moderator is someone that has trouble following the rules, then what is the standard? And how much say does the common forum poster have in this decision? If someone has a few legitimate complaints made by different people then shouldn't their status be reconsidered?

If someone has trouble consistently following the rules, then they should not be a moderator. I would define a "legitimate complaint" to be a complaint either regarding posting that goes against the rules, or moderating that goes against the Manifesto; it is the non-conformance to the rules that is a problem, not the complaints themselves.

Now, what makes things difficult in this particular case is the fact that we don't yet have finalised rules, which makes it hard to point out why someone is in violation of them. I've left the rules draft open for comment for about 24 hours now, so I'll take people's suggestions on board and post some finished rules very soon. In the future, we can then use the established rules as grounds to measure people's behaviour. I'm not going to reconsider jroa or anyone else's status as a moderator before making it clear to them what is expected.

If there are specific behaviours that you object to, please post your comments in the rules draft thread and I will do my best to write the final rules to suit everyone.
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Offline rooster

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Re: Should Mods Be Held to Higher Standard
« Reply #32 on: December 17, 2013, 07:38:07 PM »
If someone has trouble consistently following the rules, then they should not be a moderator.
This satisfies me and is really all I wanted to hear.

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Online Pete Svarrior

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Re: Should Mods Be Held to Higher Standard
« Reply #33 on: December 17, 2013, 07:45:26 PM »
This is one of the things a council could decide on.
No, it's not. The council has nothing to do with the administration of this site. This has been agreed when the very principle has been laid out.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
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Re: Should Mods Be Held to Higher Standard
« Reply #34 on: December 17, 2013, 08:40:49 PM »
This is one of the things a council could decide on.
No, it's not. The council has nothing to do with the administration of this site. This has been agreed when the very principle has been laid out.

This is why the role of the council needs clarifying.

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Offline Ghost Spaghetti

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Re: Should Mods Be Held to Higher Standard
« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2013, 09:22:44 AM »

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Offline rooster

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Re: Should Mods Be Held to Higher Standard
« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2013, 12:01:48 PM »