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Messages - Bikini Polaris

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Answer #1. This is due to terrain. We're talking about geography, here, not curvature of the Earth. This is evidenced by Totallackey's contribution of the topo map of the area in question. No Flat Earther ever tried to argue that there are no hills or mountains on the Earth. Texas is relatively flat, but there are rolling hills everywhere.

I admit that I was hasty to conclude something without appreciating the terrain. But, by the same token, how can we say that the apparent horizontal flatness (I see that too!) is not hiding a curvature with a certain terrain configuration?

Answer #2. Though I don't see that at all in this photo, this is due to perspective, distance and the vanishing point/line. The same way that light poles appear to rise to the horizon/vanishing line while getting shorter and smaller. Clouds do the same thing as they disappear into the distance, but they shrink and move 'down' toward the horizon.

That wide white horizontal band on the background doesn't look to me as clouds vanishing due to perspective.

My points work better on the sea (as Tumeni pointed out), when I see a clear horizon on the sea I see the horizon abruptly changing into sky and clouds diving down faster than perspective. That of Texas is an interesting photo but maybe something more like frozen lakes give more clarity to the matter of flatness.


As far as I understand in the wiki they criticize Soundly's photos of Pontchartrain because, they say, if curvature was indeed *so* apparent, our planet would be quite small. I like that comment because it acknowledges the fact that you cannot just watch and see a round earth.

However, frontal curvature is somehow obvious when you start looking at it. In the picture you can notice three evidences:

- The abrupt stop of the horizon details (shouldn't they slowly disappear on a flat earth?)
- The fast downward decline of clouds.
- The cluster of buildings on the left popping out of nowhere, as if their base was hidden.

Flat Earth Community / Re: If you could who would it be.
« on: February 26, 2020, 10:49:43 AM »
Put it another way; if any of TFES who routinely contribute to these forums was offered the chance to go, would they accept?

Baby Thork?


Flat Earth Media / Re: Frozen Lake Proves Flat Earth
« on: February 24, 2020, 10:22:19 AM »
I like this experiment because it is pretty neat. There are hard numbers and quite clear images. Now let me write as a counterpart to FE. In the experimental settings the experimenters (both in the lake and Rowbotham) carry out a visual observation and then make a comparison with their own understanding of RET, concluding their own thesis. But that understanding is apparently a geometrical sphere without any atmosphere, where light travels in straight paths. Indeed other REs, in their understanding of RET, complain that such effects could be due to refraction, for we can notice in the frozen lake video that lights are blurredd and flickering, and their shape is not restored with the zoom, but this refraction should bother less if the camera was actually put higher on the ground (rather than lower). This kind of refraction wasn't understood by Rowbotham, and it is explained well in this video:

Flat Earth Community / Re: Death of Mike Hughes
« on: February 24, 2020, 09:47:49 AM »
An incredibly brave man who died pursuing his dreams. But hopefully it is learned that experimenters will think to their own safety first.

Flat Earth Theory / Re: I think you're wrong. Discuss if you dare
« on: February 21, 2020, 09:54:41 AM »
And you can actually see more water 'above' the farthest waves when it's zoomed all the way in; indicating MORE waves further beyond the camera's capability to zoom and detect.

I'm sorry but I can't, those waves are in good contrast painted against the sky, their edges are well defined. Above them there appears to be only the sky. Also, the boat doesn't get down the horizon as it's zoomed in, as I would expect if more waves in the background were coming out. But I'm not saying that's a proof of anything, I'm on the "visual proofs are useless" camp, I'm just pointing out that's not what I would expect to see in a totally flat sea surface, i.e. I would expect a repeating fractal structure.

Flat Earth Theory / Re: I think you're wrong. Discuss if you dare
« on: February 19, 2020, 09:35:11 PM »
(Note the ridiculously FLAT horizon from one side of the shot to the other and you can skip to 44 seconds if you like.)

Note the ridiculously crisp cutting line made by the horizon, *as if* it was going to frontally dive down.

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Infinite Earth and zeteticism
« on: February 16, 2020, 09:27:19 PM »
That would be a good topic to look into for an article. You should help us look into it.

Philosophy scholar and professor Daniel Tanguay, at the University of Ottawa seems to think that the Zetetic Philosophy is a valid philosophy:

The search term "zetetic philosophy" seems to bring up much other interesting commentary in other works as well.

I can help with an article shortly explaining Pyrrhonian skepticism, that is the very first known zeteticism.

I also found Marcellot Truzzi Zetetic Scholar, that is more tuned to what I see in FEs:

But overall a direct criticism of the Zetetic Cosmology would be needed.

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Are plane tickets real?
« on: February 16, 2020, 02:11:21 PM »
Significantly weakened… You mean proven incorrect?

One thing that you have to understand is that PROOF is impossible. To me PROOF means 0% chance of error.
You could say here this picture of the blue sky is PROOF the sky is blue.
But there is a very small chance that there is a flaw with the camera
There is small chance there could be a flaw in the evolution of our optical cortex/retina which makes our brain turn the incorrect color blue.
The photo could be photo shopped
Someone could have dumped a big cloud of blue dye/dust in the sky just before the picture was taken
Sometimes the sky is red and orange.

So it's no PROOF. It's evidence.

At the same time, outside the mathematical world, there do not exist 100% precise statements. The earth is round is just a hugely rough approximation of its shape. The same for a flat earth. The same for train schedules, the same for everything. But often evidence roughly excludes other possibilities, so that the freedom to be in some way is very much limited too.

Flat Earth Theory / Re: I'm a RE'r and have some questions!
« on: February 16, 2020, 01:56:54 PM »

I think in the more biblical models nothing revolves around the earth. I think everything is above the earth.

I don't really understand what the firmament is but basically the entire universe is above the earth.

I respectfully disagree. A downward movement of the Sun, as described in great length in the Bible, implies that the Sun sets below the Earth, not above.

I would see your view point if there were not a good half dozen verses explaining that the earth can't move or the earth does not move or the earth will never move

I'm not discussing that, I agree that for the Bible the Earth doesn't move. But at the same time for the Bible the Sun moves in a vertical way, plus setting under the horizon and rising from below the horizon.

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Infinite Earth and zeteticism
« on: February 15, 2020, 04:46:53 PM »
Rowbotham doesn't have a problem with talking about hypothetis', the book is full of them. He teaches that things beyond our ability of direct study is a matter of belief, and should be treated as such, rather than one option declared as true.

Are there other sources commenting on Zeteticism? It would be nice to see other philosopher's views and criticisms on that, since following a single source is quite far from being scientific and quote close to being a cult.

Flat Earth Theory / Re: I'm a RE'r and have some questions!
« on: February 15, 2020, 11:56:54 AM »
What if you were standing on your head, wouldn't the movement be upwards for a sunset? God takes into account the general perspective of the reader.

It's still a vertical movement w.r.t. the horizon. The Bible clearly states that the Sun makes a clear path:

Psalm 19:6 It rises at one end of the heavensand makes its circuit to the other; nothing is deprived of its warmth.

So the movement is a clear vertical one: rise and set and a circuit above our heads.

I think in the more biblical models nothing revolves around the earth. I think everything is above the earth.

I don't really understand what the firmament is but basically the entire universe is above the earth.

I respectfully disagree. A downward movement of the Sun, as described in great length in the Bible, implies that the Sun sets below the Earth, not above.

By the same token, a fixed Earth is totally consistent with what the Bible says, without any interpretation needed.

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Are plane tickets real?
« on: February 14, 2020, 08:22:28 PM »
I read some of the threads and I think y’all take this “prove it” thing too far. For example, I have never actually been to Europe, therefor I don’t know it actually exists. If you showed me pictures of it ....

If the sceptic truly wants to "question everything" (another line which appears frequently) then they would never get anything done in their day, for they'd never get beyond questioning their breakfast, and anything which preceded it.

Spot on. Technically FEs aren't "sceptics" but "Pyrrhonists", that is they doubt literally everything and reach a methodological "suspension of judgement". One can see that from the fact that FEs accept different contradictory, and sometimes unprovable, statements at the same time, without questioning them and without sharing values but only few things they believe false. That's the reason the FE community is basically a divided one. In Philosophy being a Pyrrhonist poses many (unresolved) difficulties, not last the problem that if you cannot believe in anything you couldn't even be Pyrrhonist in the first place. So, in general, being Pyrrhonist is not a great achievement, being it a relatively easy and safe, but questionable, play. Back to the plane ticket problem, it extends to a whole running global society where nationally independent businesses run without exploiting the real flat geometry of the planet and losing so much money, because you know, the NASA conspiracy from the sixties..

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Iran's Space Suit is a Halloween Costume
« on: February 14, 2020, 08:24:48 AM »
As far as we know, Iran failed to send satellites in space; the US, but probably other countries too, are worried it succeeds in doing that for military reasons. Sending humans is a totally different story, being largely useless and super-expensive to do (and also risking human lives).

What puzzles me about conspiracies is that when one starts accepting crazy stories, literally any story can be made up contradicting any other... for example, how do we know that a fake astronaut suite is part of a misinformation plan to actually hide the fact that they are succeeding in their project but want to look weak? How do we know that in reality the Earth is round but the CIA created the Flat Earth theories to hide the fact that they know it? How do we know that we know what believe we know? :)

Flat Earth Theory / Re: I'm a RE'r and have some questions!
« on: February 14, 2020, 08:09:44 AM »
Joshua 10:13

And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

This passage does not say the sun stood still, the earth stood still too, and the moon stayed. This passage VERY clearly indicates that the movement of the sun and the moon in the sky is because the sun and moon are the ones moving not the earth. This is backed up by the many many passages specifically saying the earth does not move. Even if one of those passages is interpreted as some sort of a metaphor or parable there are still several others which are not.

How can the movement be only in the sky if it's written that the sun "hasted not to go down"? I know it's difficult or nearly impossible to universally interpret the Bible, but it clearly states in many passages that the sunset is created out of a downward movement of the sun.

Flat Earth Theory / Re: I think you're wrong. Discuss if you dare
« on: February 13, 2020, 06:14:53 PM »
How is that possible?? I know for a FACT that I was taught in school that the Universe began with a Big Bang...

...sending all matter exploding outward throughout space.

The Big Bang is more like a "big inflation" or also "big flash". No "matter" existed at the beginning, but it started to form when, as the space was inflating, the average temperature went down. Also, it is unknown how any matter actually exists, and scientists speculate some form of asymmetry which favors matter versus anti-matter.

The Big Bang is a theory that comes from the cosmic background radiation, this can be received also on ground by very sensitive telescopes. As usual, it's "just a theory", but it puts together many astronomical observations and is currently accepted as the only one we have about our universe.

Most people don't understand what is significant about these images of sunlight from behind clouds...

These images prove multiple 'observable' facts about our sun.

1. They show, beyond any shadow of a doubt, how close our sun is to us.

Still I cannot understand how many images of crepuscular rays show them parallel.

Flat Earth Community / Re: Media Resistance
« on: February 04, 2020, 10:40:26 PM »
Also at an altitude of 10,000 feet you can see hundres of miles in any direction on a clear day... no curvature is visible.

Frontal curvature is really apparent and measurable. The horizon dipping behind, the crisp clear line that ends and dips down, far clouds that go down and touch the horizon.

Regarding the OP, have you ever thought that maybe Flat Earth is fought for hiding another conspiracy and diverting people attention from lousy monetary policies and global warming?

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Revisiting Bedford Level Experiment
« on: February 04, 2020, 10:35:21 PM »
I still don't get how FEs interpret refraction and how they model it. Rowbotham clearly ignored it, but he doesn't represent all FEs. As far as I can't see the current state of this discussion is that the current theory of refraction assumes a Globe Earth in it, even though those assumptions could be "theoretically" ignored. But still this doesn't rule out that the Bedford canal apparent flatness could be well due to refraction, and this fits nicely with the common idea of FEs to ignore visual proofs.

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Revisiting Bedford Level Experiment
« on: January 13, 2020, 11:15:05 AM »
Trying to getting back to the OP:

1 - Refraction does exist for FEs and it may cause the sinking ship effect, see

2 - Rowbotham acknowledges the existence of the Sinking Ship effect, but adding that it's unpredictable and it doesn't prove RE.

3 - Rowbotham shows he doesn't understand air refraction and that, by the same token as 2, also the Bedford Level Experiment wouldn't necessarily prove FE.

4 - FET is still unable to provide formulas for that, and maybe it could be a totally unpredictable effect for FEs. Even though I'd be curious to know how in the mentioned link in 1 it's boldly stated:

Firstly, the reader should note that, if that curvature seen the photograph were actually the curvature of the earth, the image would suggest that earth is very small.

without any reference to any formula. The same sentence somehow shows that FET does indeed acknowledge that seeing that the earth is round is really difficult because it's so big.

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Revisiting Bedford Level Experiment
« on: January 09, 2020, 07:32:01 PM »
In the LIGO experiment which model of earth curvature (oblate spheroid or pearoid) did the building bods account for ? Did they just account for the fictional R = 6370km in such a delicate experiment ?

The LIGO setup is not floating on water, so I don't think it would prove anything. Maybe the closest thing to a visual proof (that REs would take as a disproof of their theory blablabla) would be to check the Bedford Canal supposed flatness at an increased height, where the temperature gradient wouldn't affect light so much.

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