1601

Arts & Entertainment / Re: Star Wars: Episode VII (cast list released!)

« on: April 18, 2015, 03:58:16 PM »

Wow, this conversation seems awfully familiar. Oh wait.

Hey guys, I have an idea. Why not wait until the film comes out and go see it and then criticise the movie they're actually making instead of the one you think they're making based on a 2-minute trailer?

1602

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: New South Wales state election 2015

« on: April 18, 2015, 01:22:34 AM »

It turns out that all my predictions were correct, except that the minor party that got the last seat was Animal Justice. Since I preferenced them before Greens, that'll be where my vote went to. I wasn't expecting that, but I am pleased with the result, and I feel like I made a difference this election (given how close many other minor parties were to that seat).

1603

Suggestions & Concerns / Re: Membership

« on: April 15, 2015, 10:57:44 AM »

That thread you linked was dated 22 June 2014.

As you well know, you killed that thread and others like it with your talk of reunification that culminated 3 weeks later in the following thread set up by you
http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=1722.0
And that was because Wilmore showed up a week before that moaning about the wiki page being edited.

Once that occurred, obviously all talk of membership certificates etc ceased as we had no idea what Daniel would have control over. Tom had done some good work to that point looking at certificates, the T-shirt thing died and it took another 6 months to sort, I'm now saying we should sort this too. you seem to have a great memory for what I say but a very poor one for the plans you tried to push through.

In the interest of keeping this thread on topic, I'd ask you not to throw around unfounded accusations. It was your choice not to work towards improving this site back in July, something which might have influenced the forum's members (remember, we put this to a vote; I wasn't "pushing" anything) towards your point of view by demonstrating that we are capable of functioning independently as a society, rather than just as a forum. We did nothing to stop you.

Rather than acting like we're blocking your every contribution, why not try actually making a contribution and seeing if it gets blocked?

And this site is like the old site in as much if you or pizaaplanet are required to change something and you don't want to ... it ends there. So its important not to rush off and do things and expect you to implement them.

No, please stop presenting your blatantly false opinion as fact. Both myself and pizaaplanet have made it clear that we are here to serve the community, not to make decisions for them. That's why every major decision (bar one that I can recall) affecting this site has been put to a vote, and we would do the same in the absence of broad agreement here.

In order to vote on something, though, you first need a proposal to consider. It doesn't take all that much time to put together a brief plan, and if the community doesn't like it, we (meaning the community, not "myself and pizaaplanet") are much more likely to amend than veto it. If you're worried about your time being wasted, would it be of any comfort to know that I have spent my own time on several things we ended up not using, or getting rid of later?

So again, lets see what other people think membership should be ... free?, includes a pack of things you pay for?, what might go into such a pack?, anonymous?, public listing?, wording of certificates?, etc before I rush off having made these decisions on behalf of everyone only to get told it aint happening cos people object.

We've already seen what other people think last June. I have no idea why you think starting again from scratch is going to produce different results. There's only so long you can talk about the same issue over and over before you need to just do something about it.

1604

Suggestions & Concerns / Re: Membership

« on: April 15, 2015, 12:01:34 AM »

I'd first just like to know we can do this. Last time we tried it got vetoed.

No, it didn't. You just said "hey guys let's do membership" and then abandoned the thread without doing anything about it:

http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=1710.0

This thread seems awfully familiar, now that I re-read that one.

I can't set about executing a plan without you and pizaaplanet saying yes to it

That's where you're wrong. This isn't a dictatorship like the old site; we don't want to get in the way of people making contributions to the society just because they don't have our endorsement. Look at the Reddit page, for example; that was set up without our knowledge, is run completely independently of us, and we still link it from the homepage (after we later found out about it).

On the other hand, we can't give our endorsement to a plan that doesn't exist. If you want me to say I support this idea in principle, then sure, it sounds great. But until I see an actual plan, I'm going to assume you're blowing more hot air.

If we can do memberships and it will be taken seriously and we put a community approved plan in place, I will endeavour to action parts of it. In the mean time can you f-off out of the thread so we can get some opinions?

I'm not sure what you want opinions on that isn't just a restatement of what you said in this thread's previous incarnation (linked above).

1605

Suggestions & Concerns / Re: Membership

« on: April 14, 2015, 11:22:47 PM »

Can membership be put back on the table?

I'm sure it can. Why don't you do some research, come up with a plan, and then ask us for thoughts, instead of expecting us to do all the work?

1606

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: New South Wales state election 2015

« on: April 14, 2015, 02:46:54 AM »

The Legislative Council result is due to be announced tomorrow. Looking at the initial count, we can expect at least 9 Coalition, 6 Labor and 2 Greens councillors, of 21 seats up for election. That leaves 4 seats unaccounted for.

With Labor being very close to getting 7 seats, I predict redistribution of preferences will give us a 7th Labor councillor and 3 minor party reps. There are numerous minor parties with 0.1-0.2 of a quota, which makes it difficult to predict which minor parties those will be. I guess we'll find out tomorrow.

Edit: I've just looked over the results again, and both Shooters and Fishers and CDP look to have over 0.5 of a quota, so we'll most likely get one from each of them. The remaining minor party with the highest number of votes is No Land Tax. I suppose they can't possibly be worse than CDP, but I'm hoping for an Outdoor Recreation win. My first preference, the Future Party, has no chance.

1607

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Same Sex Marriage as such, anywhere.

« on: April 14, 2015, 12:07:14 AM »

Oh I see what you are saying.  I still don't want my adults sleeping with 9 year olds, but that is another issue entirely.

Yes, that's exactly my point. Read my previous sentence for context:

I do believe there should be some protection against taking advantage of the young and mentally challenged who are unable to give informed consent, but I also don't see any reason to couple such protections with marriage.

1608

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Same Sex Marriage as such, anywhere.

« on: April 13, 2015, 02:06:07 PM »

A de facto relationship between a 45-year-old adult and a 9-year-old child is no less immoral than a married relationship, and should be treated equally under the law.

I don't think you can make a blanket statement like that.  Seeing as a 9 year-old is not fully developed mentally, physically and emotionally, and children are much more susceptible to manipulation and coercion that adults are, on average, most relationships between a 9 year old and a mature adult are not analogous to a relationship between two adults.

I wasn't comparing it to a relationship between two adults; I was comparing it to a marriage between the same two people, which could hypothetically become legal if marriage were completely deregulated.

1609

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Same Sex Marriage as such, anywhere.

« on: April 13, 2015, 01:54:28 PM »

I voted for the state not being in the business of regulating marriage, but I'd also like to qualify that. I do believe there should be some protection against taking advantage of the young and mentally challenged who are unable to give informed consent, but I also don't see any reason to couple such protections with marriage. A de facto relationship between a 45-year-old adult and a 9-year-old child is no less immoral than a married relationship, and should be treated equally under the law.

1610

Suggestions & Concerns / Re: IRC kills the forum, so lets kill IRC

« on: April 12, 2015, 11:16:22 PM »

I don't like coding. Its not a hobby for me, its always been a means to an end ... usually financial.

In this case, the end is a change you want made that nobody else does. When your viewpoint is in the minority, it's up to you to either convince others or do the work yourself.

When you read 'suggestions and concerns', why are you surprised to receive my suggestions and my concerns?

In this case, your suggestions and concerns are rash and counterproductive. They're rash because you made this thread after a single day of lower activity, without waiting to see if it was a running trend or a once-off. They're counterproductive because you're asking us to undo the work we've been doing to improve the site, without contributing anything of your own.

Well-founded, productive suggestions are welcome; incremental improvements most of all, since they are easiest to implement and measure the effectiveness of. This thread is none of those things.

1611

Suggestions & Concerns / Re: Reorganizing The Zetetic Council: Yay or Nay

« on: April 12, 2015, 11:06:44 PM »

It is definitely time to reorganise the council, starting with elections. We initially said we'd look for new councillors after maybe 3-6 months and then have individuals step down and replace people one at a time so there was continuity and yet fresh blood.

I offered to step down 3 months ago and yet no elections for a replacement was made. I don't feel it is the corpses duty to organise their own funeral, so if someone can sort a vote to replace me, I will step down with grace.

That both doesn't solve the general problem and isn't directly related to the topic. Start a new thread if you want to make this about you.

I abstain from the vote, and have no comments, except to say that I'm glad to see progress is being made on this front.

1612

Suggestions & Concerns / Re: IRC kills the forum, so lets kill IRC

« on: April 12, 2015, 11:04:01 PM »

Actually, Thork, since you are a developer, why not implement the change you're requesting and send us a pull request on GitHub? I can even provide you with a staging forum on my server to test your changes on, if that helps.

It still won't guarantee we'll accept the change, but we're a lot more likely to take you seriously if you show willingness to do some of the work instead of just complaining.

1613

Suggestions & Concerns / Re: IRC kills the forum, so lets kill IRC

« on: April 12, 2015, 10:57:21 AM »

Blanko, please no low-content posting in S&C.

Thork, your opinion is noted, but ultimately people can use whatever medium they like to have discussions. If we got rid of IRC, someone else could just go set up a third-party chat room somewhere and it would have the same result, except then we couldn't moderate it. Robbing Peter to pay Paul doesn't work on the Internet.

Besides, IRC isn't nearly as active as you seem to think it is, and the sorts of things that get talked about aren't the kinds of things that are discussed on the forum (except perhaps in The Lounge, A&E and CN). I suspect that what you're observing is just a natural lull in activity that would have happened anyway.

1614

Arts & Entertainment / Re: The Pink Floyd discography listen-through

« on: April 11, 2015, 10:45:49 AM »

Roger Waters
Amused to Death
Studio CD


Recorded: 1988-1992
Released: 7 September 1992

Band

Roger Waters (bass, synth, guitar)
Jeff Beck (guitar)
Geoff Whitehorn (guitar)
Andy Fairweather Low (guitar)
Tim Pierce (guitar)
B.J. Cole (guitar)
Steve Lukather (guitar)
Rick DiFonso (guitar)
Bruce Gaitsch (guitar)
Patrick Leonard (keyboards, programming)
John "Rabbit" Bundrick (organ)
James Johnston (bass)
Randy Jackson (bass)
John Pierce (bass)
John Patitucci (bass)
Graham Broad (drums)
Denny Fongheiser (drums)
Jeff Porcaro (drums)
Brian Macleod (snare, hi-hat)
Steve Sidwell (cornet)
Luis Conte (percussion)

Additional vocalists

Marv Albert
Katie Kissoon
Doreen Chanter
N'Dea Davenport
Natalie Jackson
P.P. Arnold
Lynn Fiddmont-Linsey
Jessica Leonard
Jordan Leonard
Don Henley
Jon Joyce
Stan Farber
Jim Haas
Rita Coolidge
Alf Razzell

Also featuring Guo Yi and the Peking Brothers (dulcimer, lute, zhen, oboe, bass).

All tracks authored by Roger Waters.

Track listing

1. The Ballad of Bill Hubbard (4:19)
2. What God Wants (part I) (6:00)
3. Perfect Sense (part I) (4:16)
4. Perfect Sense (part II) (2:50)
5. The Bravery of Being Out of Range (4:43)
6. Late Home Tonight (part I) (4:00)
7. Late Home Tonight (part II) (2:13)
8. Too Much Rope (5:47)
9. What God Wants (part II) (3:41)
10. What God Wants (part III) (4:08)
11. Watching TV (6:07)
12. Three Wishes (6:50)
13. It's a Miracle (8:30)
14. Amused to Death (9:06)

Review

I'm quite ambivalent when it comes to this album. On the one hand, it has the direct, biting lyrics Roger used to deliver without fail in the '70s, and the addition of Jeff Beck on guitar injects these songs with a dimension of musicianship that has been missing ever since The Wall. On the other hand, Roger seems to have developed little as a musician, only occasionally producing a song that couldn't be mistaken for something straight off Wish You Were Here or The Wall. Still, I would rate this as being Roger's best solo album yet, and most certainly better than The Wall.

The main underlying concept of the album is the idea that television is a double-edged sword; that as powerful a medium it can be for good, so too is it a powerful weapon of evil. Accompanying that are the usual Roger Waters themes of war, religion, commercialism and globalisation, and the damage each one can do to society. The lyrics are very heavy on symbolism; throughout the album, "the monkey" is used to represent the young and innocent part of ourselves which is gradually diminished by all of these influences; in What God Wants (part III), it is said that "the monkey in the corner [is] slowly drifting out of range".

The opening track, very unusually for a Roger Waters album, is instrumental. It does have the voice of Alfred Razzell, a World War I veteran, taken from a documentary in which he recounts being forced to abandon a fellow soldier, Bill Hubbard, in no-man's land. However, there are no sung lyrics, and the music is very reminiscent of the start of Shine On You Crazy Diamond, with full-bodied synth chords and Jeff Beck performing a guitar solo over the top.

In very typical Waters style, the opening instrumental abruptly cuts, with the sound of a television changing channels, to a sample of a young boy saying "I don't mind about the war, that's one of the things I like to watch, if it's a war going on". This heralds the start of What God Wants, a three-part song which, by dealing with both the harmful nature of religion (part I) and commercialism (part II), draws a connection between the two, in that both are revered and worshipped by many people incapable of thinking outside those paradigms.

Perfect Sense serves to deliver a back story for the aforementioned monkey symbol. It begins with the very dawn of civilisation ("the monkey sat on a pile of stones, and he stared at the broken bone in his hand"); a reference to 2001: A Space Odyssey, from which Roger wanted to include the famous "stop, Dave" monologue at the beginning of the song. Stanley Kubrick, however, refused permission for Roger to sample the film, and so it was replaced with a backwards message expressing Roger's frustration with the situation.

Continuing with the story being told in Perfect Sense, the monkey is revealed to have been presented with a series of confusing lectures and given "command of a nuclear submarine and [sent] back in search of the Garden of Eden". What Roger seems to be saying here is that as young minds grow and mature, they are preyed upon by the commercial giants, especially in terms of propaganda shown on television as they grow up. The second part of Perfect Sense addresses this point far more directly, claiming that everything that has happened "makes perfect sense, expressed in dollars and cents, pounds, shillings and pence".

The Bravery of Being Out of Range and Late Home Tonight are a return to the self-indulgent, war-oriented Roger we know and love. The former is a commentary on the bravery (of lack thereof) shown by the US military when they bomb targets that can't possibly fire back with anything capable of reaching the people in charge, with a direct reference (though not by name) to George H. W. Bush, then president of the USA. The latter tells a more personal story of the 1986 US air strike against Libya, with Roger as narrator taking on the perspective of various individuals (one not directly involved in the strike, but watching it on TV; one pilot involved in the strike; and one victim).

Too Much Rope is where this album begins to show its true potential. Until now, Roger's voice has been a mere shadow of what it was on The Wall and Pros and Cons, but his performance on this track, while still noticeably worse than his prime, is far better than I remembered from my last listening. It's no Hey You, but he manages to hit some pretty powerful high notes here. Likewise, while the composition isn't mind-blowing, it's one of the few songs on the album that manages to set itself apart from Roger's earlier work with Floyd. Definitely a high point.

Watching TV is another high point, and my overall favourite track. Musically, it's very unusual for Roger, bordering on country rock. Indeed, the vocals are sung in harmony by Roger and Don Henley (of Eagles fame), itself one of very few instances I can recall where Roger harmonises with anyone for the lead vocal. But lyrically, I would rate this song as among Roger's best work.

It starts out as a very personal, melancholy story about losing a loved one in the Tiananmen Square massacre, with the protagonist giving a very detailed, intimate description of the person. As the song goes on, it is gradually revealed that the source of grief (who is consistently referred to as "my sister") is actually a protester whose death happened to be captured on TV ("she's the one in fifty million who can help us to be free, because she died on TV"). It's an extremely effective way of communicating what is at once the powerful informative capacity of television and its tendency to encourage viewers to shut out all else from their mind while watching.

Three Wishes, while it is another powerful song, introduces a fantasy element that doesn't seem to belong on this album; it revolves around finding a genie, making three wishes, and then remembering a long lost one ("who you've just learned to miss") and being too late to bring them back. It's a Miracle brings us crashing back down to the album's theme of commercialism, with various aspects of modern globalisation (from McDonald's in Tibet to a benevolent doctor in Manhattan) being described as miraculous. Roger also can't seem to resist taking a shot at Andrew Lloyd Webber; "Lloyd Webber's awful stuff runs for years [...] then the piano lid comes down and breaks his fucking fingers", an event which is also claimed to be a miracle.

The final track, Amused to Death, brings a finality to the concept in a distinctively Waters-esque fashion. Despite another cheap shot (this time at Nick Mason's racing hobby), Roger brings the album's story to a close by describing the exhaustion of the resources which feed commercialism ("we ate our last few jars of caviar"), and hypothesising that aliens who stumble upon the dead human race huddled around their television sets would be baffled as to what had caused their extinction. Finally, a short sample of Alfred Razzell closes the album in the same vein as it is opened, with him relaying his own sense of finality upon seeing Bill Hubbard's name on a list of missing soldiers at a war memorial many years after the war was over.

This album is far from perfect, but given the extremely inconsistent nature of Floyd members' solo works, coupled with Roger's tendency to go way overboard in his self-indulgence, it turned out to be far better than I might have hoped for. The weaker points that don't add anything new to the catalogue (The Ballad of Bill Hubbard, The Bravery of Being Out of Range) are nicely balanced by the more distinctive, challenging numbers (Too Much Rope, Watching TV) to create an album that is pretty damn good, all things considered.

Roger himself has characterised this album as the third installment in a set with The Dark Side of the Moon and The Wall. I'm not sure I'd agree with that assessment, but it's good enough that if you enjoy those two, you really ought to give this a listen and make up your own mind.

1615

Status Notices / Re: Scheduled maintenance, 2015-04-11

« on: April 11, 2015, 07:04:34 AM »

Maintenance complete. Once again, thanks for flying Flat Earth Society.

1616

Status Notices / Re: Scheduled maintenance, 2015-04-11

« on: April 11, 2015, 07:00:10 AM »

Maintenance now underway. Hold onto your hats.

1617

Status Notices / Re: Scheduled maintenance, 2015-04-11

« on: April 11, 2015, 06:55:05 AM »

Beginning maintenance in five minutes.

1618

Arts & Entertainment / Re: Star Trek

« on: April 11, 2015, 02:22:06 AM »

Anyway, "Q Who" is probably where TNG really started to get interesting.  The first appearance of the Borg and it was actually excellent in almost every way... easily, I think, the best episode of the first two seasons.  You put "The Royale" above this, Parsifal? 

Oh, was that in season 2? I thought it was season 3. Q Who is a fantastic episode, yes, although since it comes after The Royale, I'd still say that The Royale is where TNG starts getting good.

I'm not sure how I'd compare them episode-for-episode. They're both great in very different ways.

1619

Suggestions & Concerns / Re: Web chat for IRC

« on: April 11, 2015, 01:44:25 AM »

Added to the homepage sidebar, added to the IRC thread in T&I, and announcement made (which now shows up on the homepage too!). Thanks for testing, everyone.

1620

Announcements / Web chat now available

« on: April 11, 2015, 01:42:49 AM »

A long-awaited feature, the ability to get onto our IRC channel using a web client, is now available. Simply navigate to https://irc.tfes.org/ in your web browser, enter a nickname, and you'll be chatting with us in real time.