Re: How Far Away is the Horizon?
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2018, 01:17:53 PM »
In the figure above, the horizon is at H. The sun appears to set at W, which is further away than H.  H is where the earth's surface stops appearing to rise to eye-level, but beyond that, object appear to sink into a convergence zone behind it.
Is there a way of calculating how far W is?
Tom previously said that the horizon was "the merging of perspective lines". So I assumed that meant you couldn't see anything beyond that, maybe I misunderstood.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: How Far Away is the Horizon?
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2018, 01:24:47 PM »
Is there a way of calculating how far W is?

I don't know. I edited my previous post to mention that the same calculation for H doesn't seem to work for W.

Tom previously said that the horizon was "the merging of perspective lines". So I assumed that meant you couldn't see anything beyond that, maybe I misunderstood.

Read Ch. 14 of Earth Not a Globe. Rowbotham explains why that isn't how perspective works. Things don't all converge to a point (line). Object above the eye line (or that are taller than eye-level) converge along that eye-level line, but at a greater distance away, which is why you see the mast of a ship even after the hull disappears.  Or the top arc of the sun even though the bottom is gone from view.

H is where the surface stops rising to eye-level and levels off to a flat plane. Everything beyond that converges somewhere along that plane, top down.

« Last Edit: June 08, 2018, 01:28:36 PM by Bobby Shafto »

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: How Far Away is the Horizon?
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2018, 01:32:04 PM »
There are problems with that ^,  which is why I was hesitant to interpret ENAG explanation with that mathematical formulation.

But this is Q&A so I won't challenge it here. Tom answered the question, so that's good enough for me, in this venue.

Offline hexagon

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Re: How Far Away is the Horizon?
« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2018, 01:56:02 PM »
In the figure above, the horizon is at H. The sun appears to set at W, which is further away than H.  H is where the earth's surface stops appearing to rise to eye-level, but beyond that, object appear to sink into a convergence zone behind it.
Is there a way of calculating how far W is?
Tom previously said that the horizon was "the merging of perspective lines". So I assumed that meant you couldn't see anything beyond that, maybe I misunderstood.

You calculate it in the same way as you calculate the position of H. Instead of putting the distance between eye level and sea level into the formula , you put the distance between eye level and the top of the mast into the formula.

And the formula is d = x/tan(1°/60), where d is the distance to the point where something x above or below the eye level appears to be at eye level due to the effect of perspective. 
« Last Edit: June 08, 2018, 01:59:42 PM by hexagon »

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: How Far Away is the Horizon?
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2018, 04:24:41 PM »
Is there a way of calculating how far W is?
Tom previously said that the horizon was "the merging of perspective lines". So I assumed that meant you couldn't see anything beyond that, maybe I misunderstood.

You calculate it in the same way as you calculate the position of H. Instead of putting the distance between eye level and sea level into the formula , you put the distance between eye level and the top of the mast into the formula.

And the formula is d = x/tan(1°/60), where d is the distance to the point where something x above or below the eye level appears to be at eye level due to the effect of perspective.
I thought so too, but that means a 3000-mile high sun would be nearly 10.3 million miles away when seen setting along the horizon.

Re: How Far Away is the Horizon?
« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2018, 05:17:19 PM »
That was pretty much my point!
If Tom accepts those calculations then I don’t understand how a sun 3,000 miles above the plane of the earth could merge into the horizon at a distance of 12,000 miles (if that is the distance claimed, it is certainly not millions of miles away).
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Re: How Far Away is the Horizon?
« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2018, 07:15:36 PM »
Is there a way of calculating how far W is?
Tom previously said that the horizon was "the merging of perspective lines". So I assumed that meant you couldn't see anything beyond that, maybe I misunderstood.

You calculate it in the same way as you calculate the position of H. Instead of putting the distance between eye level and sea level into the formula , you put the distance between eye level and the top of the mast into the formula.

And the formula is d = x/tan(1°/60), where d is the distance to the point where something x above or below the eye level appears to be at eye level due to the effect of perspective.
I thought so too, but that means a 3000-mile high sun would be nearly 10.3 million miles away when seen setting along the horizon.
But all things experience perspective. The sun sets, because we are at and passing beyond the horizon line for the sun. So wouldn't that mean we should apply the formula to a height of 3000 miles and see how far the sun sees us from to know how far it must be to set? This seems logical to me if I understand FE's explanations correctly. Alternatively, does the sun being at 700 miles (Rowbotham's number) make it's distance work out better?

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Re: How Far Away is the Horizon?
« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2018, 07:42:47 PM »
2.4 million miles for a 700-mile high sun.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: How Far Away is the Horizon?
« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2018, 07:52:25 PM »
If that FE formula for distance to H is right, Guadalupe Island should be visible from 800' Mt Soledad on the clearest of days since it lies well short of 520 miles.

Safe to say that, if true, the actual horizon has never been seen from Mt Soledad.  Or any 800' location for that matter. It would break the record for terrestrial earth-to-earth sighting.

Edit: in fact, I can't be sure I've ever seen a "true" horizon given the FE formula. At 100', H works out to be 65 miles. I ought to be able to see San Clemente island at that elevation, but I never have. I've seen on clear days from 400' and higher, but never from nearer the beach or the bluffs.

If you're limited by the atmosphere from ever seeing a "true horizon " above 100', it's little wonder why it seems to always be at eye level.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2018, 09:17:20 PM by Bobby Shafto »

Re: How Far Away is the Horizon?
« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2018, 08:39:41 PM »
2.4 million miles for a 700-mile high sun.
Ough. Yeah, there's no way this can be correct, as it wouldn't allow the sun to set anymore than standard theory does. It would either never set, or vanish into the haze of the atmosphere well before it reached the horizon.

Re: How Far Away is the Horizon?
« Reply #30 on: June 08, 2018, 09:55:11 PM »
The other big problem is that you know the sun is overhead somewhere else on earth when it sets for you. So the earth would have to be millions of miles across.

Max_Almond

Re: How Far Away is the Horizon?
« Reply #31 on: June 08, 2018, 10:10:29 PM »
When you calculate the angles to the north star you also end up with an earth at least 1.7 million miles in radius.

Maybe the answer is simpler than we think: maybe the Earth is that size. Why haven't we considered that?

Offline edby

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Re: How Far Away is the Horizon?
« Reply #32 on: June 09, 2018, 06:28:52 PM »
The other big problem is that you know the sun is overhead somewhere else on earth when it sets for you. So the earth would have to be millions of miles across.
Unless it has a sort of lampshade, as in some variants of FE.

Re: How Far Away is the Horizon?
« Reply #33 on: June 09, 2018, 08:29:00 PM »
The angle calculation doesn't matter if it has a lampshade. It would have to wink out of sight while still significantly above the horizon, barring weird bendy light.

Offline edby

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Re: How Far Away is the Horizon?
« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2018, 12:59:42 PM »
The angle calculation doesn't matter if it has a lampshade. It would have to wink out of sight while still significantly above the horizon, barring weird bendy light.
Isn't that explained by Flat Earth perspective? I.e. you see the sun setting, but that is the same way as you see a plane 'disappear over the horizon' whereas the plane is really overhead for someone.

On its own this doesn't explain why it goes dark when it 'sets'. But if you add the lampshade you have a perfect explanation.

Offline hexagon

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Re: How Far Away is the Horizon?
« Reply #35 on: June 11, 2018, 07:27:33 AM »
Is there a way of calculating how far W is?
Tom previously said that the horizon was "the merging of perspective lines". So I assumed that meant you couldn't see anything beyond that, maybe I misunderstood.

You calculate it in the same way as you calculate the position of H. Instead of putting the distance between eye level and sea level into the formula , you put the distance between eye level and the top of the mast into the formula.

And the formula is d = x/tan(1°/60), where d is the distance to the point where something x above or below the eye level appears to be at eye level due to the effect of perspective.
I thought so too, but that means a 3000-mile high sun would be nearly 10.3 million miles away when seen setting along the horizon.

I know... The problem is, there is no formula in EnaG, not even sum numbers or estimates given. I guess, he never thought about the consequences of his model.

It's a model for what he experienced in his daily life, nothing more. And in daily life it works more or less. And then he extrapolated this qualitatively to situations like sunrise/sunset without doing the math.