Re: NASA Live Stream
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2018, 02:22:28 PM »
J-Man and Tom
But that's the thing. Those who assert things about "most FE'ers" (and who don't immediately jump to the "just watch some youtube videos" defence) seem to only be able to produce 1 or 2 names to back their claims. I propose that your sample size is woefully inadequate.
That's fair, but I'm on a Flat Earth forum so I can only base it on the people I encounter here.
If this place isn't representative then where is?

There was Pickel who thought the holocaust was a fraud...
I have a bit more time for you and Dither (who I think is sadly deluded but at least he admits it's a faith and doesn't try and pretend he understands science like Tom does.)
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: NASA Live Stream
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2018, 02:28:33 PM »
There was Pickel who thought the holocaust was a fraud...
She was an obvious troll. We get our share of those.

That's fair, but I'm on a Flat Earth forum so I can only base it on the people I encounter here.
If this place isn't representative then where is?
I don't know. However, I don't think that describing a large group of people by the actions of an individual is ever a good idea. Of course, it's a tempting one, and I've fallen into the trap of stereotyping many times before. My suggestion would be to treat individuals as individuals.
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Re: NASA Live Stream
« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2018, 02:42:20 PM »
That's fair, but I'm on a Flat Earth forum so I can only base it on the people I encounter here.
If this place isn't representative then where is?
I don't know. However, I don't think that describing a large group of people by the actions of an individual is ever a good idea. Of course, it's a tempting one, and I've fallen into the trap of stereotyping many times before. My suggestion would be to treat individuals as individuals.
True, but in personal experience at least, those more level headed have so far been the exception as opposed to the rule. P-Brane, Jeran, Tom Bishop, J-Man, Intikam, Shifter, jroa, Space Cowgirl, InFlatEarth, Treep, Dithers, dutchy, totallackey, Danang, realNarcberry, John Davis, th3rm0m3t3r0, Parallax. Of those 18, there's around 5 I would put in that category. I'm also relatively certain I've missed a few names that don't belong in that category.

That said, I still try my best to do as you say. But the rope I hand out is much shorter than it used to be.

Re: NASA Live Stream
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2018, 11:31:23 AM »
Now im really confused, i was strongly leaning towards flat earth theory but after seeing this live stream of earth now i dont know what to believe. A lot of points made a lot of sence on flat earth theory but this has made me question everything.

It cant be CGI its a stream, can it?

here is the video


I understand your concerns but it is obviously CGI. It's just another plot by nasa to convert us to Globeheads. Stay Strong Brother- Keith

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: NASA Live Stream
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2018, 11:57:45 AM »
...  it is obviously CGI. It's just another plot by nasa to convert us to Globeheads.

Why is it "obvious"?

Given that it takes Hollywood studios months to generate the SFX to go into their blockbusters, dontcha find it a bit improbable that NASA and the other ISS agencies (you do know what the 'I' stands for, don't you?) would be able to churn this out every day, day after day....?
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Offline StinkyOne

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Re: NASA Live Stream
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2018, 12:14:10 PM »
Now im really confused, i was strongly leaning towards flat earth theory but after seeing this live stream of earth now i dont know what to believe. A lot of points made a lot of sence on flat earth theory but this has made me question everything.

It cant be CGI its a stream, can it?

here is the video

I understand your concerns but it is obviously CGI. It's just another plot by nasa to convert us to Globeheads. Stay Strong Brother- Keith

Do you really think NASA gives a crap about FEers? I mean honestly, you're a tiny minority of the population and most people think you are idiots. They wouldn't go through the expense of faking a live feed. That would cut into their profits and expose them to getting caught as it would require an effects studio to pull it off.
I saw a video where a pilot was flying above the sun.
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Re: NASA Live Stream
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2018, 04:37:48 PM »
Do you really think NASA gives a crap about FEers? I mean honestly, you're a tiny minority of the population and most people think you are idiots. They wouldn't go through the expense of faking a live feed. That would cut into their profits and expose them to getting caught as it would require an effects studio to pull it off.
This is similar to a point I made some time back when I found that NASA publish a website which tells you exactly when you can see the ISS from your location, wherever that is. Something easily verifiable, if you know what you’re doing and can be bothered.

If they are faking all this they do seem to be going out of their way to make it hard for themselves by doing things like that and providing live streams.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: NASA Live Stream
« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2018, 07:12:55 AM »
That's hilariously similar to the line of thought of RE'ers who come here and tell us how we should run the Society or promote FET - clearly we're doing it wrong, despite the fact that it works spectacularly and led to an exponential growth of the FE movement worldwide.

Clearly, they found a way to make what they do work well and be convincing to the uninquisitive. It doesn't matter much what you think would make more sense.
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Re: NASA Live Stream
« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2018, 07:44:02 AM »
I think if you're going to look at these live streams and look for the ISS in the sky when they say it's going to be overhead then you're fairly inquisitive.
And shouting "FAKE!" at everything which doesn't fit your world view doesn't make you inquisitive, it's just denial.
And you really need to stop conflating a growth in interest in the society (which is mostly people pointing and laughing) with growth in the society itself.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Re: NASA Live Stream
« Reply #29 on: April 26, 2018, 07:47:02 AM »
I think if you're going to look at these live streams and look for the ISS in the sky when they say it's going to be overhead then you're fairly inquisitive.
It's the intellectual equivalent of believing in what Uri Geller is telling us because he totally showed us his abilities.

And shouting "FAKE!" at everything which doesn't fit your world view doesn't make you inquisitive, it's just denial.
It's a good thing I'm not doing that, then.

And you really need to stop conflating a growth in interest in the society (which is mostly people pointing and laughing) with growth in the society itself.
Perhaps you need to stop assuming that you have a better insight into the growth of the Flat Earth movement than members of the movement itself? Again, your thoughts and feelings are extremely insignificant in this case, since you're hardly in touch with many FE'ers.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2018, 07:48:38 AM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: NASA Live Stream
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2018, 08:10:22 AM »
I think if you're going to look at these live streams and look for the ISS in the sky when they say it's going to be overhead then you're fairly inquisitive.
It's the intellectual equivalent of believing in what Uri Geller is telling us because he totally showed us his abilities.

Not really. Geller does what he does, I have a problem with him because he pretends his tricks are him really doing stuff.
But the analogy in this case would be Geller volunteering to come to my house and bend a spoon of my choosing without him touching it.
If he can really do stuff "by the power of his mind" then he could do that, right?
But he can't. I know he can't, he knows he can't. So he's not going to do that.
Why would he go out of his way to make life difficult for himself? Stick to staged stunts on telly, fella.

If NASA are going to maintain a pretence of space travel then pretending to collaborate with a bunch of other countries to build the ISS, have numerous people pretend to live there for periods of time and making loads of videos of them doing so, creating a fake live stream, publishing a website which tells you exactly when you can see the ISS for yourself. It does all seem to be making it life difficult for themselves. It's not like people are crying out for these things. I'm actively interested in space travel and I don't sit watching the live stream or watch the videos from the ISS or go into my back garden to see it as it flies overhead. I'm sure some people do but why they would go to the hassle of creating all this "fake" content for a relatively small audience, content which can be scrutinised and, in the case of the times the ISS flies overhead personally verified...well, it does all seem like they're making lives far harder for themselves in keeping up the pretence.

And point taken about the growth of the FES but I honestly don't think I know anyone who genuinely believes it - I know some conspiracy theory nuts but even this is a step too far for them, probably a whole flight of steps. Quite simply because it doesn't stand up to any scrutiny. The fact that pretty much the first question in your FAQ is "is this site a joke" indicates you realise that most people regard this with a certain amount of amusement.
[I did search for your "sinking ship" evidence on the other place, by the way, you can search posts unless you sign up]
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: NASA Live Stream
« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2018, 08:16:38 AM »
It's the intellectual equivalent of believing in what Uri Geller is telling us because he totally showed us his abilities.

No, it isn't. Geller has never controlled an illusion viewable by the whole wide world, repeatedly, every 90 minutes, over a number of years. Not only does the ISS appear on schedule, bang on time, every time, but it also never fails to show up, and can sometimes e seen twice in one evening. It shows no deviation of course from that published in advance. It shows no behaviour that would suggest it to be an illusion, trick, or something other than an orbital craft orbiting at roughly 17k mph.

If it were an illusion, it would be an absolutely miraculous one.




And shouting "FAKE!" at everything which doesn't fit your world view doesn't make you inquisitive, it's just denial.
It's a good thing I'm not doing that, then.

.. you must admit, though, there are plenty of your fellow members and believers outwith this society who do.


And you really need to stop conflating a growth in interest in the society (which is mostly people pointing and laughing) with growth in the society itself.
Perhaps you need to stop assuming that you have a better insight into the growth of the Flat Earth movement than members of the movement itself? Again, your thoughts and feelings are extremely insignificant in this case, since you're hardly in touch with many FE'ers.

Do you have membership numbers, growth rates, or any other stats?
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Re: NASA Live Stream
« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2018, 08:37:42 AM »
But the analogy in this case would be Geller volunteering to come to my house and bend a spoon of my choosing without him touching it.
That would be analogous to me taking an item of my choosing to NASA (I'll let you in on the fact that it would be a banana, for the sake of an old inside joke) and demanding that they put it in a polar orbit. I doubt they'd entertain me.

well, it does all seem like they're making lives far harder for themselves in keeping up the pretence.
I just don't care what it seems like to you. Just like I don't care much when RE'ers are trying to tell us how to run FES because it seems to them like we're doing it wrong.

The fact that pretty much the first question in your FAQ is "is this site a joke" indicates you realise that most people regard this with a certain amount of amusement.
That's irrelevant. We had to answer the question because (even with the FAQ) we receive hundreds of messages asking if we're trolling. That's kind of how the FAQ works. The fact that most people think the Earth is round, or that they won't consider any alternatives, has nothing to do with the fact that this majority is rapidly shrinking.

.. you must admit, though, there are plenty of your fellow members and believers outwith this society who do.
I won't entertain the idea of taking responsibility for the actions of others. You're welcome to take up your issues with the individuals concerned.

Do you have membership numbers, growth rates, or any other stats?
I will not disclose anything that's not already abundantly public. I value my trust relationship with other members of this group, and with other groups. All I can suggest is that you stop ignoring the publicly-available evidence - widespread media coverage of newcomers to the FE scene, or the Economist's analysis of the movement's growth in America would be a good start. I'm not exactly making a controversial statement here - it's just one you'd really rather not have to deal with.

Forbes also recently reported on a YouGov poll - make of that what you will. It also contradicts my understanding that Flat Earthers are not overwhelmingly religious.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2018, 08:48:51 AM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: NASA Live Stream
« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2018, 08:45:16 AM »
You'd agree that the YouGov poll covered an exclusively American base, though, wouldn't you ... ?
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Re: NASA Live Stream
« Reply #34 on: April 26, 2018, 08:47:33 AM »
You'd agree that the YouGov poll covered an exclusively American base, though, wouldn't you ... ?
Yes, by design. It was directly aimed at Americans.
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Re: NASA Live Stream
« Reply #35 on: April 26, 2018, 09:38:52 AM »
But the analogy in this case would be Geller volunteering to come to my house and bend a spoon of my choosing without him touching it.
That would be analogous to me taking an item of my choosing to NASA (I'll let you in on the fact that it would be a banana, for the sake of an old inside joke) and demanding that they put it in a polar orbit. I doubt they'd entertain me.

Well no, because in your example you - the sceptic - are the one challenging NASA to do something. If you went up to Geller with a spoon he'd probably bend it for you using "the power of his mind" (read "slight of hand"). If you said he couldn't touch it though, then he wouldn't. Because he can't.

Your example would work better as an analogy if NASA came to you and said "hey, I hear you've always wanted to put a banana in polar orbit. We'll get right on that for you". It is NASA providing these live streams. NASA providing the website telling you where you can see the ISS (have you checked to see if you can? I haven't because I don't feel the need to, if you're a sceptic then this is easily testable). NASA keep putting people up there and shooting video of them in weightless conditions. They're not doing it in response to any great public clamour for this.
Why would they bother doing all that?

And I think you're massively over-stating the acceptance of flat earth believe, there's a lot of interest in it, I'm interested, but that's not the same thing.
From that Economist article

Quote
On November 9th, 500 “flat-Earthers” assembled in North Carolina for the first annual Flat Earth International Conference.

500  :D. And while we're here, a load of Americans believe in aliens visiting earth too. Americans are not renowned for critical thinking.
A high percentage of 6 year olds believing in Santa Claus is not an indication of the abilities of 6 year olds to think rationally or the validity of the theory that there's a fella coming down their chimneys to deliver presents every Christmas.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: NASA Live Stream
« Reply #36 on: April 26, 2018, 09:47:43 AM »
Quote
On November 9th, 500 “flat-Earthers” assembled in North Carolina for the first annual Flat Earth International Conference.

500  :D
How often do you attend conferences? 500 is just about the capacity of many events venues. This happens to correlate with the fact that the conference tickets sold out. More people couldn't attend, quite literally, because they weren't allowed to.

Once again, you are suffering from cognitive dissonance. You want to claim that the number is small, so you'll perceive it as small regardless of what it was.
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Devils Advocate

Re: NASA Live Stream
« Reply #37 on: April 26, 2018, 09:53:25 AM »
A vast majority of Americans believe Presley did in fact die in 1977. A Gallup poll conducted in 1997 found only 4% of Americans thought Presley was alive, while 93% of those surveyed were certain he was dead. http://time.com/4897819/elvis-presley-alive-conspiracy-theories/

I know this is from 1997 but still 4% of the US population back then was significantly more than 500 people...for context

Re: NASA Live Stream
« Reply #38 on: April 26, 2018, 10:28:10 AM »
Once again, you are suffering from cognitive dissonance. You want to claim that the number is small, so you'll perceive it as small regardless of what it was.
That's sweet. Have you seen me say that on here about others and you're doing a slightly grown up "you know you are, you said you are?"  :D
I'm well aware of cognitive dissonance. I actually do want the number to be small because I think it's sad if a lot of people are unable to think rationally or clearly, but if the number was large - statistically speaking - then I wouldn't deny that. I've seen no evidence of that in the UK although admittedly I tend not to go round asking people.

I can believe that belief in a flat earth is growing in America. There's a guy in the White House who wouldn't know the truth if it punched him in the face.
People believing crazy things and belief in that crazy thing increasing is not evidence that the thing isn't crazy. I don't think "the tide is turning" though or that it will ever become a mainstream belief because it is clearly wrong and doesn't stand up to any scrutiny.

In the UK there was a load of stuff about the MMR vaccine being linked with Autism - the whole thing was based on some flawed research and whipped up by the media. Parents were literally refusing to allow their children to be vaccinated and the result is a big rise in the incidence of measles

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/feb/19/who-warns-over-measles-immunisation-rates-as-cases-rise-400-across-europe

A lot of people believed a wrong thing, that didn't mean it was a valid thing to believe.
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Offline hexagon

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Re: NASA Live Stream
« Reply #39 on: April 26, 2018, 11:12:47 AM »
If you do the same as the Economist and do bit research on Google trends, it's really quite interesting. From 2004 to roughly 2014 the interest in "flat earth" was steadily decreasing. Since then it increased by a factor of about 10. The search interest in "flat earth society" followed the trend for "flat earth" in a 1:1 fashion until 2014. But interestingly the increase since then for "flat earth society" is much lower, about a factor 1.5.

This is for general web search. If you look for searches on YouTube, "flat earth" showed also there an increase in 2014, but since last summer the interest is steadily decreasing, down to 43% from the maximum last year. It's now back on the level as around 2015/16.

For me that shows, that there is indeed an increasing curiosity in the term "flat earth", but it is not really substantial. There is no real increase in engagement into the subject. To watch a video on YouTube cost you much more time than a quick google search looking for an explanation of this term. Also the curiosity leads not in the same way to a kind of institutional interest in something like a flat earth society.

It is also interesting to see, that this mainly a US phenomenon. E.g. the interest ratio between the USA and Russia is 100:3, to the most European countries it is below 100:10. Another thing is, what triggered the interest. And there it seems, that a huge part goes back to some celebrities whose names are the most related search expression to "flat earth".     

Doesn't sound like a tide for me...

And I'm also happy to see that the big US universities outnumber the interest in "flat earth" by orders of magnitude... And even my own, comparable small University, generates at least a search interest that is in the same range as that for "flat earth". It's also nice to see, that we get every year more new physics, astronomy, geography, and so on students than people participating on flat earth meetings in the homeland of this "movement". By the way, the yearly meetings of the American Physical Society are joined by more than 10000 scientist every year. And the APS has also numbers regarding membership, it's almost 50000 people... That's a movement...   
« Last Edit: April 26, 2018, 11:15:28 AM by hexagon »