I'm confused: How have we gotten it wrong for so long?
« on: March 06, 2018, 02:51:08 AM »
If I understand correctly, the promotion of the Round earth model was done by NASA, " This likely began during the Cold War's 'Space Race', in which the USSR and USA were obsessed with beating each other into space to the point that each faked their accomplishments in an attempt to keep pace with the other's supposed achievements." (This is straight from the Flat Earth wiki.) If this is the case then why has the round earth model widely accepted for thousands of years? NASA nor the US existed until long after the majority of people believed the earth was round...

Offline retlaw

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Re: I'm confused: How have we gotten it wrong for so long?
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2018, 05:29:45 AM »
Antarctic Treat
Signed by then all.

Re: I'm confused: How have we gotten it wrong for so long?
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2018, 05:32:44 AM »
Antarctic Treat
Signed by then all.
Doesn't explain thousands of years of RE belief, which was the question.

I believe most FE would posit the people who convinced everyone of a round Earth were just wrong but convincing, in the same way RE tend to call Rowbotham a snake oil salesmen.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: I'm confused: How have we gotten it wrong for so long?
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2018, 08:35:34 AM »
We have believed many things that are completely incorrect for excessively long times. Religion, atomic theory, Newtonian mechanics, to name just a few. There really is nothing unusual or notable about humans getting things wrong for thousands of years.
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Re: I'm confused: How have we gotten it wrong for so long?
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2018, 02:04:31 PM »
Actually agree, what is unusual and notable is us realising we were wrong about the earth being flat thousands of years ago and THEN reverting.

Our model has evolved from geocentric to heliocentric based on observations of movements of celestial bodies.
Then as telescopes improved we realised that ours is only one of many galaxies and more recently we've been able to detect planets going round distant stars.
And we've entered the space age so any lingering doubt about the shape of the earth has long since gone.

Over the last couple of millennia we have gone from thinking we lived on a flat earth which was the centre of the universe and everything went around to us to realising that we live on a fairly unremarkable planet orbiting a fairly unremarkable star in a fairly unremarkable galaxy.

What IS unusual and notable is that some people want to cling to that belief that we are special and that we live on a flat earth and everything goes around us. Even though it doesn't match any observations. Maybe some psychological thing going on about wanting to feel special. Any significance we have can only come from religious beliefs, not cosmology or astronomy.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

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Offline nickrulercreator

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Re: I'm confused: How have we gotten it wrong for so long?
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2018, 02:13:24 PM »
What IS unusual and notable is that some people want to cling to that belief that we are special and that we live on a flat earth and everything goes around us. Even though it doesn't match any observations. Maybe some psychological thing going on about wanting to feel special. Any significance we have can only come from religious beliefs, not cosmology or astronomy.

It's odd. I never understood how one could get being special from a flat earth. If the Earth was flat, and you couldn't go too far on the ice wall because you'd freeze or whatever, or there's an impenetrable dome, then we're essentially trapped here. No opportunity for exploration. No chance of expanding our knowledge beyond what we can interact with. No chance of expanding our species, and other species, to other worlds. No chance of finding life outside Earth, because there is no "outside." It's rather sad. You're confined to this world, and this world alone, if the Earth matches the claims of FEs. You're the only intelligent species in existence. You're alone in a vast world. There would never, and can never be any other outside life, just the life on Earth.

Would it not be better to live in the world that REs claim exist (such as myself)? All of those problems I said above disappear.
This end should point toward the ground if you want to go to space. If it starts pointing toward space you are having a bad problem and you will not go to space today.

Re: I'm confused: How have we gotten it wrong for so long?
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2018, 02:36:47 PM »
The flip side of that is the feeling that we are the most important thing in the universe, we are set apart and special.
Which actually, I think we are. But I happen to believe that Genesis is telling me deeper truths than the exact age of the universe or the shape of the earth.
I don't believe the Bible is to be read like a science book.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

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Offline nickrulercreator

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Re: I'm confused: How have we gotten it wrong for so long?
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2018, 03:45:22 PM »
The flip side of that is the feeling that we are the most important thing in the universe, we are set apart and special.
Which actually, I think we are. But I happen to believe that Genesis is telling me deeper truths than the exact age of the universe or the shape of the earth.
I don't believe the Bible is to be read like a science book.

Eh. The chance that we're the only life in the universe is essentially nothing. 200 billion stars in our galaxy, and 200 billion galaxies in the universe that we're able to see (meaning there is probably more). Nearly all stars have at least 1 planet and, if I recall correctly, 1-in-5 have an earth-like planet in their habitable zone. That leaves a lot of opportunity for other intelligent life out there.
This end should point toward the ground if you want to go to space. If it starts pointing toward space you are having a bad problem and you will not go to space today.

Re: I'm confused: How have we gotten it wrong for so long?
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2018, 04:03:37 PM »
The flip side of that is the feeling that we are the most important thing in the universe, we are set apart and special.
Which actually, I think we are. But I happen to believe that Genesis is telling me deeper truths than the exact age of the universe or the shape of the earth.
I don't believe the Bible is to be read like a science book.

Eh. The chance that we're the only life in the universe is essentially nothing. 200 billion stars in our galaxy, and 200 billion galaxies in the universe that we're able to see (meaning there is probably more). Nearly all stars have at least 1 planet and, if I recall correctly, 1-in-5 have an earth-like planet in their habitable zone. That leaves a lot of opportunity for other intelligent life out there.
The unknown in all that, and it's quite a big unknown, is how probable is:
1) Life starting
2) Given the above, life developing to the point of intelligence.

You just said 'life' so let's just consider the first of those...honestly, we have no real way of knowing this. We know it has happened at least once in the universe, but given a planet in the Goldilocks zone does life start every time? One in 100? One in a million? Or is it so improbable that even it happening once is pretty lucky?

I don't think we have any way of determining this and thus we don't know how likely it is we're alone.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

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Offline nickrulercreator

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Re: I'm confused: How have we gotten it wrong for so long?
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2018, 01:16:34 AM »
The unknown in all that, and it's quite a big unknown, is how probable is:
1) Life starting
2) Given the above, life developing to the point of intelligence.

You just said 'life' so let's just consider the first of those...honestly, we have no real way of knowing this. We know it has happened at least once in the universe, but given a planet in the Goldilocks zone does life start every time? One in 100? One in a million? Or is it so improbable that even it happening once is pretty lucky?

I don't think we have any way of determining this and thus we don't know how likely it is we're alone.

For 1, like you said, there's no real way of knowing this. We DO know that life requires water, which we have detected in all 3 forms on bodies other than Earth, even outside the solar system, so we know that other planets can support the growth of life. We can be certain though that, with the amount of habitable, water-bearing planets there are or could be based on calculations, life is probably not solely found on Earth. Some scientists believe Enceladus, one of Saturn's moons, could have microbial life, and there's a good chance of that. Definitely check out the wiki page's part on habitability: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enceladus#Potential_habitability
This end should point toward the ground if you want to go to space. If it starts pointing toward space you are having a bad problem and you will not go to space today.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: I'm confused: How have we gotten it wrong for so long?
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2018, 03:10:28 PM »
Would it not be better to live in the world that REs claim exist (such as myself)? All of those problems I said above disappear.
Unlike RE'ers, we do not much care for what sounds nice, what world would be better to live in, or what makes us feel warm and fuzzy inside. We care only about what is true, and what can be empirically measured and observed.
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Offline nickrulercreator

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Re: I'm confused: How have we gotten it wrong for so long?
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2018, 05:42:12 PM »
Would it not be better to live in the world that REs claim exist (such as myself)? All of those problems I said above disappear.
Unlike RE'ers, we do not much care for what sounds nice, what world would be better to live in, or what makes us feel warm and fuzzy inside. We care only about what is true, and what can be empirically measured and observed.

As do I. I'm just saying, those FEs that I regularly see claiming a flat Earth is more special and better than round Earth have really got it wrong. There are plenty of FEs out there that follow FE because it's what their "god" says is reality, and choose to believe that they're super special and this world was made for them (it wasn't).
This end should point toward the ground if you want to go to space. If it starts pointing toward space you are having a bad problem and you will not go to space today.

Re: I'm confused: How have we gotten it wrong for so long?
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2018, 06:39:41 PM »
We care only about what is true, and what can be empirically measured and observed.
Unless that shows the earth isn't flat, obvs.
This is my problem with you lot, you claim to base your views on empirical observations and measurements but that only seems to extend to those observations (like an apparently flat horizon) which reinforce your views.
Experiments or observations which show your model to be bunk are explained away or flat out denied.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Re: I'm confused: How have we gotten it wrong for so long?
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2018, 07:34:57 PM »
Would it not be better to live in the world that REs claim exist (such as myself)? All of those problems I said above disappear.
Unlike RE'ers, we do not much care for what sounds nice, what world would be better to live in, or what makes us feel warm and fuzzy inside. We care only about what is true, and what can be empirically measured and observed.
Please provide details of your measurements that show the shape of the earth.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: I'm confused: How have we gotten it wrong for so long?
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2018, 11:26:39 PM »
Unless that shows the earth isn't flat, obvs.
And this is my problem with you lot. You unduly focus on the outcome rather than methodology. When a terrible RET experiment is denied due to being terrible, you handwave it away, because "it's just FE'ers denying RET experiments again". When the same people push against terrible FET experiments or proposals, you miraculously don't notice. Funny, that!
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Offline xenotolerance

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Re: I'm confused: How have we gotten it wrong for so long?
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2018, 03:21:19 AM »
every flat Earth experiment or proposal is terrible by definition. the Earth is not flat

so, was the halfhearted response to Mr NickRulerCreator's proof that the Tesla livestream was real, supposed to be denying a terrible experiment due to it being terrible?

Re: I'm confused: How have we gotten it wrong for so long?
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2018, 07:12:39 AM »
Unless that shows the earth isn't flat, obvs.
And this is my problem with you lot. You unduly focus on the outcome rather than methodology. When a terrible RET experiment is denied due to being terrible, you handwave it away, because "it's just FE'ers denying RET experiments again". When the same people push against terrible FET experiments or proposals, you miraculously don't notice. Funny, that!
What have you measured and observed?

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: I'm confused: How have we gotten it wrong for so long?
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2018, 07:55:46 AM »
... We care only about what is true, and what can be empirically measured and observed.

In that case, would you either; specify those things which you have personally measured and observed, or cite references to measurement or observation by others which come under this heading?

Doesn't have to be a long list, just your two or three which best illustrate your case.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 08:00:27 AM by Tumeni »
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Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
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Nearly?

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: I'm confused: How have we gotten it wrong for so long?
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2018, 08:10:37 AM »
When a terrible RET experiment is denied due to being terrible, you handwave it away, because "it's just FE'ers denying RET experiments again". When the same people push against terrible FET experiments or proposals, you miraculously don't notice.

Most often, I see FE'ers doing the hand-waving.

One FE'er points a P900 at something they insist should be "behind the curve", and in that moment hand-waves away the hundreds of orbital craft which have gone around and are still going around the globe, the hundreds of humans, just like them, who have personally orbited the same globe, the 21 who have journeyed to the Moon and back, seeing the Earth from 240k miles out, the imagery from the multiple weather satellites which give a different view of the globe every few minutes or so, the work by folks such as the Space Geodesy Facility, the International Laser Ranging Service, who monitor those orbital satellites, those who formulated the WGS84 standard, etc etc

That's a lot to hand-wave away on the premise that their £400, point-and-shoot consumer-grade camera tells no lies.... 
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Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

Re: I'm confused: How have we gotten it wrong for so long?
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2018, 10:54:14 AM »
Unless that shows the earth isn't flat, obvs.
And this is my problem with you lot. You unduly focus on the outcome rather than methodology. When a terrible RET experiment is denied due to being terrible, you handwave it away, because "it's just FE'ers denying RET experiments again". When the same people push against terrible FET experiments or proposals, you miraculously don't notice. Funny, that!
I'm not clear what you mean here. Can you provide examples?

The infamous Bishop Experiment is objectively bad. It's very much in the Rowbotham style of him just saying "this is what I saw".
There's no documentation or proof of where he was, the angle he was looking at, equipment used and so on.
He just says "this is what I saw". Why is that good enough? He doesn't accept that level of "proof" from anyone else.
Also, he claims to be able to repeat the experiment any time he wishes. But when someone posts a video of a building occluded by the curve of the earth he just says it's "waves".
Really? But waves are never an issue in his experiment?
Come on, you have to admit this is pretty shoddy.

I have suggested experiments you lot can do to measure the distance of the sun. If it's as close as you suppose then some observations and triangulation could show that.
My suggestion about this has always been met with a stony silence apart from one dude who did say that he'd seen this done and would provide the evidence. Never heard from him again.

I've suggested Tom do some experiments around shadows to see if he can produce long shadows like you see at sunset in any other way than by having a light source PHYSICALLY (not "by perspective") close to the ground. He's not taken me up on that idea either.

For people who claim to be so bothered about empirical evidence you seem remarkably reticent to actually do any experiments.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.