Planes running into the earth
« on: January 29, 2018, 01:45:09 AM »
Hey I'm a new flat earth believer and I have a question I've been asked by my friends. So, if the earth is acceclerating upward at 9.8 m/s how come when planes fly they don't crash into the earth? Thanks

*

Offline nickrulercreator

  • *
  • Posts: 279
  • It's round. That much is true.
    • View Profile
Re: Planes running into the earth
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2018, 03:41:09 AM »
Hey I'm a new flat earth believer and I have a question I've been asked by my friends. So, if the earth is acceclerating upward at 9.8 m/s how come when planes fly they don't crash into the earth? Thanks

Obligatory note: I'm a RE.

It'd be the same reason they don't fall back to Earth as a result of gravity. The wings of a plane generate lift, keeping them aloft.
This end should point toward the ground if you want to go to space. If it starts pointing toward space you are having a bad problem and you will not go to space today.

*

Offline AATW

  • *
  • Posts: 6979
    • View Profile
Re: Planes running into the earth
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2018, 10:00:44 AM »
Would that work though? Lift is a force, gravity is a force. If the force of lift is greater than the force of gravity then you have liftoff.
But if the earth was simply accelerating upwards - the FE idea is that it is that acceleration which provides the force which we feel as gravity - then as soon as the plane left the ground it would no longer be pushed upwards by this acceleration so wouldn't the earth just accelerate back into it?
Wouldn't the only way to take off be to do so at a rate of acceleration greater than g?

My physics might be wrong here!
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

*

Offline juner

  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 10265
    • View Profile
Re: Planes running into the earth
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2018, 03:50:55 PM »
There is a reason it is called the Equivalence Principle.

This topic comes up every now and then, and it is the same answer every time (when discussing universal acceleration, anyway).

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 11110
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Planes running into the earth
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2018, 03:17:32 AM »
Would that work though? Lift is a force, gravity is a force. If the force of lift is greater than the force of gravity then you have liftoff.
But if the earth was simply accelerating upwards - the FE idea is that it is that acceleration which provides the force which we feel as gravity - then as soon as the plane left the ground it would no longer be pushed upwards by this acceleration so wouldn't the earth just accelerate back into it?
Wouldn't the only way to take off be to do so at a rate of acceleration greater than g?

My physics might be wrong here!

The earth is also pushing up the air.

*

Offline AATW

  • *
  • Posts: 6979
    • View Profile
Re: Planes running into the earth
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2018, 09:10:03 AM »
This is making my head hurt a bit but I think overall you're right, this would work.
Pretty much nothing else about your model does but I'll give you this one.  :D
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

JohnAdams1145

Re: Planes running into the earth
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2018, 01:11:56 AM »
I should disclaim that I know close to nothing about General Relativity. Tom Bishop is in the same boat.

Tom Bishop is right in this case; the equivalence principle applies. You can consider this from two perspectives, per the equivalence principle: Standing on the Earth makes us experience a normal force that accelerates us with the Earth (since UA posits that we are not accelerated by the invisible force that accelerates the Earth because we are "shielded" by its mass), or there is an invisible downward force that affects the atmosphere and everything shielded by the Earth, but not Earth itself or any of the celestial bodies we observe. The second perspective is what we normally think of as "gravity." Both of these models are indistinguishable and make the exact same predictions per the equivalence principle.

Of course, Round Earth people know numerous problems with this idea, but I'm not going to talk about those since this isn't the Debate forum.

Re: Planes running into the earth
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2018, 01:36:26 PM »
I want to ask that if Earth moves up with an acceleration in the z-axis, then:

1) What about x and y axis? Can't air just move out of the Earth?
2) What about the variation of g?

*

Offline AATW

  • *
  • Posts: 6979
    • View Profile
Re: Planes running into the earth
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2018, 01:44:59 PM »
I think the variation of g is caused, in their model, but some made up force like "Celestial Gravitation"?
As for the air, good question. I have no idea what keeps the atmosphere from flying off into space in their model if there's no gravity.
I know some FE models have a dome over the earth so maybe it's that.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

JohnAdams1145

Re: Planes running into the earth
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2018, 02:02:03 AM »
The atmosphere is shielded from UA in the same way that people on the surface are. UA posits that less-massive objects (including plants, the air, airplanes, etc) are "shielded" by more massive objects from the spontaneous acceleration force.

Applying the equivalence principle, UA says that objects near a massive object like the Earth experience a force in one particular direction, "downward" on Earth, unlike gravity, which pulls you toward the mass itself. As you get farther from the Earth's surface, the magnitude of this invisible force decreases. I recognize that this is not the UA presented on the wiki; however, before you accuse me of ignorance and/or misrepresentation, this model makes exactly the same predictions and assumptions as UA, per the equivalence principle. Essentially, FE proposes in UA a form of gravity that is normal to the flat surface of the Earth and constant that dies with increasing altitude without explaining its origins. Of course, it cannot be due to the interaction between masses, because they deny that (it would pull the Earth into a sphere after long enough).

It's wrong to talk about axes in isotropic space. Of course in FE, there is a preferred axis, the direction of UA, or the direction opposite it. Then the remaining two axes must simply lie in the orthogonal complement of the space spanned by the basis vector in that direction, but again the choices of directions of the two would be arbitrary, so long as they spanned the requisite space. Or you could just dispense with the remaining two axes, and use a curvilinear 2D coordinate system. But there would be a mathematical preference against a 3D curvilinear coordinate system, precisely because space wouldn't be isotropic under FE, and one straight axis would be physically defined. Essentially, UA would imply the existence of a universal compass. This is quite an assertion; there are various problems that could be elaborated on if anyone made a thread in FE Debate.

Of course, in RE, there is no "z-axis" or "y-axis" other than what you define them to be (I could point the z-axis toward the Sun or toward Tom Bishop's house, and both would be equally valid). The point in Galilean motion and special relativity is that all coordinate systems are equivalent, and general relativity generalizes this by describing the curvature of space using the stress-energy tensor (again absent coordinates).


The variation of g is taken by FE to be the result of "celestial gravitation" -- A standard RE rebuttal is that in essence, they have an invisible force that's just as inexplicable as gravity itself. So much for being simpler. Of course that doesn't explain why it varies almost exactly according to the amount of centripetal acceleration on a rotating sphere at 1.15 x 10^-5 Hz. No FE has written out a formula for "celestial gravitation" that describes the amount of force between two point particles. This is a complete dealbreaker for me, because it doesn't make specific predictions.


« Last Edit: February 02, 2018, 02:05:26 AM by JohnAdams1145 »

Re: Planes running into the earth
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2018, 04:52:33 PM »
The atmosphere is shielded from UA in the same way that people on the surface are. UA posits that less-massive objects (including plants, the air, airplanes, etc) are "shielded" by more massive objects from the spontaneous acceleration force.

Applying the equivalence principle, UA says that objects near a massive object like the Earth experience a force in one particular direction, "downward" on Earth, unlike gravity, which pulls you toward the mass itself. As you get farther from the Earth's surface, the magnitude of this invisible force decreases. I recognize that this is not the UA presented on the wiki; however, before you accuse me of ignorance and/or misrepresentation, this model makes exactly the same predictions and assumptions as UA, per the equivalence principle. Essentially, FE proposes in UA a form of gravity that is normal to the flat surface of the Earth and constant that dies with increasing altitude without explaining its origins. Of course, it cannot be due to the interaction between masses, because they deny that (it would pull the Earth into a sphere after long enough).

It's wrong to talk about axes in isotropic space. Of course in FE, there is a preferred axis, the direction of UA, or the direction opposite it. Then the remaining two axes must simply lie in the orthogonal complement of the space spanned by the basis vector in that direction, but again the choices of directions of the two would be arbitrary, so long as they spanned the requisite space. Or you could just dispense with the remaining two axes, and use a curvilinear 2D coordinate system. But there would be a mathematical preference against a 3D curvilinear coordinate system, precisely because space wouldn't be isotropic under FE, and one straight axis would be physically defined. Essentially, UA would imply the existence of a universal compass. This is quite an assertion; there are various problems that could be elaborated on if anyone made a thread in FE Debate.

Of course, in RE, there is no "z-axis" or "y-axis" other than what you define them to be (I could point the z-axis toward the Sun or toward Tom Bishop's house, and both would be equally valid). The point in Galilean motion and special relativity is that all coordinate systems are equivalent, and general relativity generalizes this by describing the curvature of space using the stress-energy tensor (again absent coordinates).


The variation of g is taken by FE to be the result of "celestial gravitation" -- A standard RE rebuttal is that in essence, they have an invisible force that's just as inexplicable as gravity itself. So much for being simpler. Of course that doesn't explain why it varies almost exactly according to the amount of centripetal acceleration on a rotating sphere at 1.15 x 10^-5 Hz. No FE has written out a formula for "celestial gravitation" that describes the amount of force between two point particles. This is a complete dealbreaker for me, because it doesn't make specific predictions.
As someone with basic knowledge in physics and maths, I didn't really understand the part where you talked about the coordinate system.
My knowledge is that you can choose ANY axis as x,y, or z, it really won't affect one's observation.
So, if the take the axis that this force (which funtions analogous to gravity), occurs in the z-axis (or x or y, doesn't really matter), then the other two axis are independent of whatever goes in the z-axis. Therefore, the air can still leak out.
Also, how exactly are they shielded?

Re: Planes running into the earth
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2018, 10:48:28 AM »
Hey I'm a new flat earth believer and I have a question I've been asked by my friends. So, if the earth is acceclerating upward at 9.8 m/s how come when planes fly they don't crash into the earth? Thanks
We are in the sphere and therefore the plane is also propelled upwards by 9.8m/s so they balance each other out. NASA may use the weather control of HAARP to force planes under thermals to compensate for any discrepancy.