Re: Free Will disproved
« Reply #40 on: November 14, 2018, 10:36:17 AM »
I would actually like to flip this and ask you to prove to me that I have control over the quantum activities that take place in my brain. Because I don't think that even if the universe were nondeterministic, it would prove free will because we couldn't exert our will at the quantum level.

Free will isn't you saying "I have control over everything", which is impossible. Free will is based on the notion that you have no fate and that your destination was not predetermined. You are never in 100% control over your own life, but you're never in 0% control, either. Determinism only exists at 0% control. Indeterminism is everything greater than 0%. This is very easy to falsify, assuming you can show that probability is not actually a part of the universe.

This is why saying "no one has free will" is so much harder to prove. You have to prove that you can determine someone else's actions in advance, in such a way that they can never avoid that action. e.g. imagine a scenario where I tell you that you'll have a salad for dinner tomorrow, and no matter what you do, you MUST have a salad for dinner tomorrow. That is a lack of free will. However, if I tell you that you'll have a salad for dinner tomorrow, and then you don't, then that must be free will.
I am defining free will as being a person's ability to make decisions and actions without relying on anything but themselves to commit them. If you say that we have free will because of the improbability of activity at the quantum level, then we have as much free will as a rock, because it is the exact same activity. I also take issue with this because if I cannot exert my will on quantum particles, at least those in my brain, then I am still not in control of my actions because they are determined from activities that I also don't have control over.

I also disagree that the only way we can determine if free will is not true is if we can predict someone else's actions. The analogy of the salad confuses the idea of fate with determinism. If you tell someone that they will have salad for dinner tomorrow then you do it because you want to test free will, and they either decide to have salad or not to have salad based on whether or not they want to prove you wrong. Whether or not they want to prove you wrong is based on the social environment they grew up in, they are in currently, and the biological factors of their brain.

If I have no control over the particles that determine the activities in my brain which determine my actions, then how am I in control of anything?

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Free Will disproved
« Reply #41 on: November 14, 2018, 01:51:17 PM »
I would actually like to flip this and ask you to prove to me that I have control over the quantum activities that take place in my brain. Because I don't think that even if the universe were nondeterministic, it would prove free will because we couldn't exert our will at the quantum level.

Free will isn't you saying "I have control over everything", which is impossible. Free will is based on the notion that you have no fate and that your destination was not predetermined. You are never in 100% control over your own life, but you're never in 0% control, either. Determinism only exists at 0% control. Indeterminism is everything greater than 0%. This is very easy to falsify, assuming you can show that probability is not actually a part of the universe.

This is why saying "no one has free will" is so much harder to prove. You have to prove that you can determine someone else's actions in advance, in such a way that they can never avoid that action. e.g. imagine a scenario where I tell you that you'll have a salad for dinner tomorrow, and no matter what you do, you MUST have a salad for dinner tomorrow. That is a lack of free will. However, if I tell you that you'll have a salad for dinner tomorrow, and then you don't, then that must be free will.
I am defining free will as being a person's ability to make decisions and actions without relying on anything but themselves to commit them.

Then by that definition you have no free will. You will never be able to make decisions relying only on yourself.

Re: Free Will disproved
« Reply #42 on: November 14, 2018, 01:58:06 PM »
I would actually like to flip this and ask you to prove to me that I have control over the quantum activities that take place in my brain. Because I don't think that even if the universe were nondeterministic, it would prove free will because we couldn't exert our will at the quantum level.

Free will isn't you saying "I have control over everything", which is impossible. Free will is based on the notion that you have no fate and that your destination was not predetermined. You are never in 100% control over your own life, but you're never in 0% control, either. Determinism only exists at 0% control. Indeterminism is everything greater than 0%. This is very easy to falsify, assuming you can show that probability is not actually a part of the universe.

This is why saying "no one has free will" is so much harder to prove. You have to prove that you can determine someone else's actions in advance, in such a way that they can never avoid that action. e.g. imagine a scenario where I tell you that you'll have a salad for dinner tomorrow, and no matter what you do, you MUST have a salad for dinner tomorrow. That is a lack of free will. However, if I tell you that you'll have a salad for dinner tomorrow, and then you don't, then that must be free will.
I am defining free will as being a person's ability to make decisions and actions without relying on anything but themselves to commit them.

Then by that definition you have no free will. You will never be able to make decisions relying only on yourself.
Yep.

Re: Free Will disproved
« Reply #43 on: November 14, 2018, 05:05:08 PM »
I would actually like to flip this and ask you to prove to me that I have control over the quantum activities that take place in my brain. Because I don't think that even if the universe were nondeterministic, it would prove free will because we couldn't exert our will at the quantum level.

Free will isn't you saying "I have control over everything", which is impossible. Free will is based on the notion that you have no fate and that your destination was not predetermined. You are never in 100% control over your own life, but you're never in 0% control, either. Determinism only exists at 0% control. Indeterminism is everything greater than 0%. This is very easy to falsify, assuming you can show that probability is not actually a part of the universe.

This is why saying "no one has free will" is so much harder to prove. You have to prove that you can determine someone else's actions in advance, in such a way that they can never avoid that action. e.g. imagine a scenario where I tell you that you'll have a salad for dinner tomorrow, and no matter what you do, you MUST have a salad for dinner tomorrow. That is a lack of free will. However, if I tell you that you'll have a salad for dinner tomorrow, and then you don't, then that must be free will.
I am defining free will as being a person's ability to make decisions and actions without relying on anything but themselves to commit them.

Then by that definition you have no free will. You will never be able to make decisions relying only on yourself.
Can I ask you for your full definition of free will?

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Offline J-Man

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Re: Free Will disproved
« Reply #44 on: November 14, 2018, 06:54:35 PM »
I just ate a bowl of soup while doing my billing. Nothing told me to have vegetable soup with cheese and crackers. No one told me the going rate for my services to bill my clients. I thought about the outcomes and made decisions on both. The soup was good, the billing came out great, I will be around another month for sure. We reap what we sow. The silly thoughts about did we think to see or breathe are nonsense. God built our bodies for auto pilot. We start out being fueled by dark energy and if one finds the Lord (the light) our energy changes to pure refined nitro powered energy.

Our "will" is guided by these forces and "free" until such time, your ass burns hotter than molten steel.
What kind of person would devote endless hours posting scientific facts trying to correct the few retards who believe in the FE? I slay shitty little demons.

Re: Free Will disproved
« Reply #45 on: November 14, 2018, 07:11:46 PM »
I just ate a bowl of soup while doing my billing. Nothing told me to have vegetable soup with cheese and crackers. No one told me the going rate for my services to bill my clients. I thought about the outcomes and made decisions on both. The soup was good, the billing came out great, I will be around another month for sure. We reap what we sow. The silly thoughts about did we think to see or breathe are nonsense. God built our bodies for auto pilot. We start out being fueled by dark energy and if one finds the Lord (the light) our energy changes to pure refined nitro powered energy.

Our "will" is guided by these forces and "free" until such time, your ass burns hotter than molten steel.
Is our will guided by these forces or is it free? When you decided to have vegetable soup how many other options did you have? Were the options limited? How likely was it already that you would pick vegetable soup? Did you have control over which or how many clients you had to bill? Did you have a choice of whether or not to bill them and, if so, were you more likely to bill or not bill them? Whether or not you were likely to bill them is predetermined by how much you rely on it, which is determined by your need for food and shelter, which is not in your control.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2018, 07:14:53 PM by Imheretoo »

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Offline J-Man

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Re: Free Will disproved
« Reply #46 on: November 14, 2018, 08:10:13 PM »
Being guided is akin to sailing or say surfing. The wind is directional but your rudder control takes you to your desired outcome. Same with surfs up, you trim the board directionally. You've already made the decision to sail or surf.

One can interrupt ones breathing pattern by will but the normal mechanics of this is predetermined by forces of light which are very real. Go dark and your face will turn very blue.
What kind of person would devote endless hours posting scientific facts trying to correct the few retards who believe in the FE? I slay shitty little demons.

Re: Free Will disproved
« Reply #47 on: November 14, 2018, 08:20:58 PM »
Being guided is akin to sailing or say surfing. The wind is directional but your rudder control takes you to your desired outcome. Same with surfs up, you trim the board directionally. You've already made the decision to sail or surf.

One can interrupt ones breathing pattern by will but the normal mechanics of this is predetermined by forces of light which are very real. Go dark and your face will turn very blue.
So, please correct me if I'm wrong, I think that you are arguing for the case that while our actions can be influenced by outside forces, ultimately you have the final say on decisions that you make. My point is that, after meditating and observing my own mind, I've found that my thoughts arise of their own accord, so I concluded that because I don't have control which thoughts I have then I can't say that I have control over the actions that they commit.

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Offline J-Man

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Re: Free Will disproved
« Reply #48 on: November 14, 2018, 08:28:43 PM »
Being guided is akin to sailing or say surfing. The wind is directional but your rudder control takes you to your desired outcome. Same with surfs up, you trim the board directionally. You've already made the decision to sail or surf.

One can interrupt ones breathing pattern by will but the normal mechanics of this is predetermined by forces of light which are very real. Go dark and your face will turn very blue.
So, please correct me if I'm wrong, I think that you are arguing for the case that while our actions can be influenced by outside forces, ultimately you have the final say on decisions that you make. My point is that, after meditating and observing my own mind, I've found that my thoughts arise of their own accord, so I concluded that because I don't have control which thoughts I have then I can't say that I have control over the actions that they commit.
No, all you're doing is letting go of the rudder control or closing your eyes as you glide down the wave. You've given decision making ability away.
What kind of person would devote endless hours posting scientific facts trying to correct the few retards who believe in the FE? I slay shitty little demons.

Re: Free Will disproved
« Reply #49 on: November 14, 2018, 08:33:10 PM »
I just ate a bowl of soup while doing my billing. ...  The soup was good, the billing came out great, I will be around another month for sure.
The fact you have been reduced to eating vegetable soup for dinner makes me doubt this.

I think the issue you are all wrestling with is one of chaos theory.

Lets suppose you intend to go to the shop for a can of coke. Its not far.

You could take the car, or walk.
You could elect to put on a jumper first.
Finding a jumper might make you bump into a lady who wants to talk. Had you just gone straight there you may have missed her.
She talked about her son and his fiancee going to Spain. His face reminds you of a potato.
You think a bit about maybe taking a holiday of your own.
You walk into the shop and you end up buying a can of coke and 4 pounds of King Edward potatoes.

Little things happen and they effect the outcome of how you might think about something later. And its no more predictable than what the weather will be on Christmas day. You might expect snow. You might also expect to be furious if in 5 years you find your wife cheating ... but you might instead by that time be sick of her shit and glad she gave you a good enough reason to finally divorce her. We don't know what will happen to us in the future in any moment, and so we don't know what we will think about a particular thing at some point in the future.

But when that time arises, you'll have a thought and you can act on it or not. The future is not set, and neither are your opinions. That's free will.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Free Will disproved
« Reply #50 on: November 14, 2018, 08:35:52 PM »
I just ate a bowl of soup while doing my billing. Nothing told me to have vegetable soup with cheese and crackers. No one told me the going rate for my services to bill my clients. I thought about the outcomes and made decisions on both. The soup was good, the billing came out great, I will be around another month for sure. We reap what we sow. The silly thoughts about did we think to see or breathe are nonsense. God built our bodies for auto pilot. We start out being fueled by dark energy and if one finds the Lord (the light) our energy changes to pure refined nitro powered energy.

Our "will" is guided by these forces and "free" until such time, your ass burns hotter than molten steel.

Yes, answers are easy when you make them up, we know this.
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

Re: Free Will disproved
« Reply #51 on: November 14, 2018, 08:38:29 PM »
Being guided is akin to sailing or say surfing. The wind is directional but your rudder control takes you to your desired outcome. Same with surfs up, you trim the board directionally. You've already made the decision to sail or surf.

One can interrupt ones breathing pattern by will but the normal mechanics of this is predetermined by forces of light which are very real. Go dark and your face will turn very blue.
So, please correct me if I'm wrong, I think that you are arguing for the case that while our actions can be influenced by outside forces, ultimately you have the final say on decisions that you make. My point is that, after meditating and observing my own mind, I've found that my thoughts arise of their own accord, so I concluded that because I don't have control which thoughts I have then I can't say that I have control over the actions that they commit.
No, all you're doing is letting go of the rudder control or closing your eyes as you glide down the wave. You've given decision making ability away.
So do you think that there is a separate you that is in control of the thoughts and has the ability to give up this control? If so then where is it, what is it, and how do you know that it is there?

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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Re: Free Will disproved
« Reply #52 on: November 14, 2018, 09:46:06 PM »


If an animal is acting on instinct, is that free will?
When a tiger eats a monkey, I don't see that as a decision of free will rather than mindless nature. The decision to prey upon Monkey A instead of Monkey B is just an expression of nature like water flowing downhill.

As humans, I believe we can choose to mindlessly follow instinct. Some people have very little self awareness or mindfullness. They are simply reacting to their environment. We have the option to question our instinct and make choices.

The deterministic argument that all our choices are based mechanically on the sum reactions to our experiences still feels like free will to me. But instead of making those decisions in the moment, I made those decisions back when we still stardust and they are just now being manifested.



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Re: Free Will disproved
« Reply #53 on: November 14, 2018, 09:53:08 PM »


A wild animal can choose if it wants to kill something or not. Sometimes they choose not.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2018, 09:54:41 PM by Baby Thork »
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Re: Free Will disproved
« Reply #54 on: November 14, 2018, 09:58:45 PM »


If an animal is acting on instinct, is that free will?
When a tiger eats a monkey, I don't see that as a decision of free will rather than mindless nature. The decision to prey upon Monkey A instead of Monkey B is just an expression of nature like water flowing downhill.

As humans, I believe we can choose to mindlessly follow instinct. Some people have very little self awareness or mindfullness. They are simply reacting to their environment. We have the option to question our instinct and make choices.

The deterministic argument that all our choices are based mechanically on the sum reactions to our experiences still feels like free will to me. But instead of making those decisions in the moment, I made those decisions back when we still stardust and they are just now being manifested.
Then what is even the point of having the term free will? With this reasoning I have as much free will as a rock which has as much free will as any other particle. This reasoning also requires us to completely redefine our definition of a decision for the sole purpose of being able to apply it to inanimate objects. What is the point of this?

Re: Free Will disproved
« Reply #55 on: November 14, 2018, 10:01:06 PM »
If you can claim you have no free will, you can claim diminished responsibility.

It is not possible to build a civilisation with laws and order if you don't acknowledge free will. We have it ... it is called agency. And if you kill someone in cold blood you'll be punished for choosing to do so.
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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Re: Free Will disproved
« Reply #56 on: November 14, 2018, 10:08:31 PM »


If an animal is acting on instinct, is that free will?
When a tiger eats a monkey, I don't see that as a decision of free will rather than mindless nature. The decision to prey upon Monkey A instead of Monkey B is just an expression of nature like water flowing downhill.

As humans, I believe we can choose to mindlessly follow instinct. Some people have very little self awareness or mindfullness. They are simply reacting to their environment. We have the option to question our instinct and make choices.

The deterministic argument that all our choices are based mechanically on the sum reactions to our experiences still feels like free will to me. But instead of making those decisions in the moment, I made those decisions back when we still stardust and they are just now being manifested.
Then what is even the point of having the term free will? With this reasoning I have as much free will as a rock which has as much free will as any other particle. This reasoning also requires us to completely redefine our definition of a decision for the sole purpose of being able to apply it to inanimate objects. What is the point of this?

Some people don't seem to have free will. They simply are carried along by their emotions and instinct. I think we can choose free will or we can abandon it.

In Thork's video, we see animals making a choice. There are some who claim that animals are as aware and conscious as people. The problem is that I've met some people who were only dimly aware of their own existence and I've met some animals that seem very aware of themselves.

It makes sense. I'll enjoy the company of a smart animal over a dumb person any day (assuming the animal isn't a large predator thinking about lunch.)
Round Earther patiently looking for a better deal...

Re: Free Will disproved
« Reply #57 on: November 14, 2018, 10:09:06 PM »
If you can claim you have no free will, you can claim diminished responsibility.

It is not possible to build a civilisation with laws and order if you don't acknowledge free will. We have it ... it is called agency. And if you kill someone in cold blood you'll be punished for choosing to do so.
I disagree. I feel that this mixes the idea of virtue ethics with utilitarianism, and then just gives all credit to virtue ethics. You are not punished for killing someone because you chose to do something that is simply just bad. The punishment for committing crimes is based on the idea that if the person who commits the crime is punished, they will not do it again. It is also based on utilitarian ethics which state that things are right or wrong because they make good or bad things happen. Civilizations rely on this form of determinism in order to enforce laws, not free will.

Re: Free Will disproved
« Reply #58 on: November 14, 2018, 10:10:30 PM »


If an animal is acting on instinct, is that free will?
When a tiger eats a monkey, I don't see that as a decision of free will rather than mindless nature. The decision to prey upon Monkey A instead of Monkey B is just an expression of nature like water flowing downhill.

As humans, I believe we can choose to mindlessly follow instinct. Some people have very little self awareness or mindfullness. They are simply reacting to their environment. We have the option to question our instinct and make choices.

The deterministic argument that all our choices are based mechanically on the sum reactions to our experiences still feels like free will to me. But instead of making those decisions in the moment, I made those decisions back when we still stardust and they are just now being manifested.
Then what is even the point of having the term free will? With this reasoning I have as much free will as a rock which has as much free will as any other particle. This reasoning also requires us to completely redefine our definition of a decision for the sole purpose of being able to apply it to inanimate objects. What is the point of this?

Some people don't seem to have free will. They simply are carried along by their emotions and instinct. I think we can choose free will or we can abandon it.

In Thork's video, we see animals making a choice. There are some who claim that animals are as aware and conscious as people. The problem is that I've met some people who were only dimly aware of their own existence and I've met some animals that seem very aware of themselves.

It makes sense. I'll enjoy the company of a smart animal over a dumb person any day (assuming the animal isn't a large predator thinking about lunch.)
Do you think that people had free will when they were stardust, or that they have free will now and have the ability to give it up?

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Free Will disproved
« Reply #59 on: November 14, 2018, 10:16:35 PM »

A wild animal can choose if it wants to kill something or not. Sometimes they choose not.

You literally have no idea why an animal does what it does.


Some people don't seem to have free will. They simply are carried along by their emotions and instinct. I think we can choose free will or we can abandon it.

We can literally destroy peoples agency by destroying a part of their brain.  Our subjective perception of free will often does not match up with what is objectively happening in our brain.

Quote
In Thork's video, we see animals making a choice.

This is a narrative you are ascribing to the animal.  For all you know, it could be having purely a physiological reaction to a hormone.

Quote
There are some who claim that animals are as aware and conscious as people.

Many animals likely are.  There is little reason to think that we sit in some preferential tier of the consciousness hierarchy.
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.