Re: Free Will disproved
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2018, 01:21:49 PM »
Predictability and free will are not mutually exclusive.

You have the freedom to choose.  You can see two or more options and, through a series of processes in your brain, make a choice.

Lack of free will would mean you have no way of choosing.  That you can give the same person the same choice and they'd decide the same thing.  This is not always true.

And while a person's choice may be predictable with (alot) of information, chemistry, models, what-not the end result is that they could choose between two options.  They could acknowledge two options and weigh them both rather than dismissing  all but one instantly.



To simplify:
Have you ever struggled with a decision?  Not known what to decide?
Then you have free will.

Re: Free Will disproved
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2018, 01:33:45 PM »
Predictability and free will are not mutually exclusive.

You have the freedom to choose.  You can see two or more options and, through a series of processes in your brain, make a choice.

Lack of free will would mean you have no way of choosing.  That you can give the same person the same choice and they'd decide the same thing.  This is not always true.

And while a person's choice may be predictable with (alot) of information, chemistry, models, what-not the end result is that they could choose between two options.  They could acknowledge two options and weigh them both rather than dismissing  all but one instantly.



To simplify:
Have you ever struggled with a decision?  Not known what to decide?
Then you have free will.
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Offline supaluminus

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Re: Free Will disproved
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2018, 02:46:05 PM »
I am saying that all of that is just stuff happening and that you listen to it, as if you were watching a movie.

Well, like I said before, it's an interesting thing to think about, but the best information we have right now agrees with the idea that "you" are that "stuff" happening. Everything that makes your consciousness what it is - whether conscious or subconscious - is "you" acting and reacting and so forth. You may not always be 100% in control of everything, you may even find yourself manipulated through one means or another... but that doesn't mean you don't have willpower, and that doesn't mean that "you" aren't in control. All it means is that you don't have complete control, because you're not just a thinking creature, you're an amalgamation of organisms all working towards a common survival mechanism, and that's a much more base, instinctive level of "consciousness." You are no more in control of that aspect of you than you are your own heartbeat - and granted, some people can even control that, to an extent.
When an honest man discovers that he is mistaken, either he will cease being mistaken...

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Re: Free Will disproved
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2018, 03:26:30 PM »
I am saying that all of that is just stuff happening and that you listen to it, as if you were watching a movie.

Well, like I said before, it's an interesting thing to think about, but the best information we have right now agrees with the idea that "you" are that "stuff" happening. Everything that makes your consciousness what it is - whether conscious or subconscious - is "you" acting and reacting and so forth. You may not always be 100% in control of everything, you may even find yourself manipulated through one means or another... but that doesn't mean you don't have willpower, and that doesn't mean that "you" aren't in control. All it means is that you don't have complete control, because you're not just a thinking creature, you're an amalgamation of organisms all working towards a common survival mechanism, and that's a much more base, instinctive level of "consciousness." You are no more in control of that aspect of you than you are your own heartbeat - and granted, some people can even control that, to an extent.
Yeah, you're right. I would rather not be the skeptic that is unconvinced by anything. Not that I am 100% convinced, but with Occam's Razor applied, it is more simple to just say that we are the stuff. I do still feel like I listen to the thoughts and have no control over them, but besides that there is no reason to think that I am separate from it.

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Offline Roundy

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Re: Free Will disproved
« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2018, 11:08:34 PM »
I know this is an old topic but I just stumbled upon this article and it articulates my own reasoning for rejecting free will better than I probably could so I wanted to share it.


https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/apr/27/success-isnt-free-will-luck-determines-everything-oliver-burkeman
Electro-Theologist, Poet, Philosopher, Musician, Etymologist, Egyptologist, Astro-Theologist, Geocentrist, Flat Earther, and Collector of Rare Books.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Free Will disproved
« Reply #25 on: May 01, 2018, 11:43:16 PM »
The idea of luck is actually contrary to determinism. In fact, the idea that things are determined by luck is inherently paradoxical. Luck is a probabilistic quality, and therefore you could never make accurate determinations of an outcome if luck ever came into play. A universe without free will is a universe with no luck at all.

Anyone that thinks free will doesn't exist is free to tell me the deterministic equations for quantum mechanics. The moment you give me those, I'll believe you, until then, as far as we know, the universe is indeterministic. Again, you're free to prove otherwise by proving the universe is deterministic at a quantum level. Free will is a scientific concept that can falsified, but it hasn't yet, and I'm willing to bet none of you here have even tried to do so.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2018, 11:46:50 PM by Rushy »

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Re: Free Will disproved
« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2018, 11:11:06 PM »
If you are the one thinking right now, then tell me what your next thought is going to be. It can't be done. Because the voice in your head that you confuse to be your own thoughts is outside of your control. The thoughts (voice) come in and out of your perception. And any action you ever take is either decided on by the voice in your head, which is outside of your control, is an impulse, which by definition is outside of your control, or a combination of the two. And in each of those cases, it is always greatly influenced by input from the outside world, which is definitely outside of your control.

By this logic, the idea of free will is shown to be an illusion. Thoughts? Do you have a different idea of what free will is? Is there a reason to think that perception of the body is different than perception of the rest of the world?

Surely you're just differentiating between the conscious and the sub-conscious? Sure I don't know my next thought sometimes... But often I think ahead and then ramble in my inner monologue to catch up. If faced with a yes/no decision I'm pretty sure I make it thus I have the choice and therefore I have free will

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Free Will disproved
« Reply #27 on: May 05, 2018, 06:00:12 PM »
If you are the one thinking right now, then tell me what your next thought is going to be. It can't be done. Because the voice in your head that you confuse to be your own thoughts is outside of your control. The thoughts (voice) come in and out of your perception. And any action you ever take is either decided on by the voice in your head, which is outside of your control, is an impulse, which by definition is outside of your control, or a combination of the two. And in each of those cases, it is always greatly influenced by input from the outside world, which is definitely outside of your control.

By this logic, the idea of free will is shown to be an illusion. Thoughts? Do you have a different idea of what free will is? Is there a reason to think that perception of the body is different than perception of the rest of the world?

Surely you're just differentiating between the conscious and the sub-conscious? Sure I don't know my next thought sometimes... But often I think ahead and then ramble in my inner monologue to catch up. If faced with a yes/no decision I'm pretty sure I make it thus I have the choice and therefore I have free will

You would perhaps be surprised to learn that simple decision making happens in such a way that you are not aware of how you each that decision.
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Free Will disproved
« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2018, 06:12:31 PM »
Making decisions is one of the most energy intensive things your mind can do, and it will generally try to avoid doing it at all, or to avoid distracting the conscious mind with the act itself. If this were not the case, your conscious mind would have to spend the vast majority of its time on decisions rather than actions

The subconscious continues to deliberate decisions even when the conscious mind is not. This is why you can sometimes go to sleep undecided on something and wake up as if the decision never existed and you know exactly what to do.

It's also why decision fatigue exists, and why salesmen will try to goad you into making lots of small decisions in a short period of time, so that your ability to make large decisions is greatly diminished.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2018, 06:16:36 PM by Rushy »

Re: Free Will disproved
« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2018, 06:27:56 PM »
There is no free will, God chose and created all things:

Your Lord creates what He wills and chooses; not for them was the choice.  Exalted is God and high above what they associate with Him.  28:68, Qur'an

And you do not will except that God wills.  Indeed, God is ever Knowing and Wise.  76:30, Qur'an

Indeed, all things We created with predestination.  54:49, Qur'an
Follow those who do not ask for any payment, and they are rightly guided. [36:21, Qur'an]

Re: Free Will disproved
« Reply #30 on: August 20, 2018, 02:11:15 AM »
Couldn't this be fairly easily resolved depending on what your definition of "you" is? I wouldn't consider my thoughts, even subconscious ones that happen, to be different from "me". I may not be aware of the thoughts or chemical reactions going on, but they are what make up "me".

This is exactly what comes to my mind. You say "God" is telling you what to do, and that is the "voice" in your head. I think everyone can relate to that experience, and that "voice" is so familiar isn't it? It's familiar because it is actually you! YOU are the voice in your head! That is what consciousness is.
"noche te ipsum"

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."  - Albert Einstein

Re: Free Will disproved
« Reply #31 on: August 20, 2018, 02:17:42 AM »
As far as free will goes, that's an entirely different discussion. It's a philosophical debate, really. You see, we can never really know whether free will exists or not, unless we can go back in time. Only then can you study the behaviors that would correlate with free will. Once a decision is made, it's made, and you can't go back in time, so you cannot study the opposite outcome unless there is a way to reverse the outcomes in the experiment - which would be to go back in time.
"noche te ipsum"

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."  - Albert Einstein

Re: Free Will disproved
« Reply #32 on: November 13, 2018, 08:31:38 PM »
If you are the one thinking right now, then tell me what your next thought is going to be. It can't be done. Because the voice in your head that you confuse to be your own thoughts is outside of your control. The thoughts (voice) come in and out of your perception. And any action you ever take is either decided on by the voice in your head, which is outside of your control, is an impulse, which by definition is outside of your control, or a combination of the two. And in each of those cases, it is always greatly influenced by input from the outside world, which is definitely outside of your control.

By this logic, the idea of free will is shown to be an illusion. Thoughts? Do you have a different idea of what free will is? Is there a reason to think that perception of the body is different than perception of the rest of the world?

Surely you're just differentiating between the conscious and the sub-conscious? Sure I don't know my next thought sometimes... But often I think ahead and then ramble in my inner monologue to catch up. If faced with a yes/no decision I'm pretty sure I make it thus I have the choice and therefore I have free will
When I said "thought" I generalized it to mean all forms of inner dialogue, not only the "loudest" voice in your head but also the one that rambles to catch up. I've found, after meditating for a while, that I can observe my thoughts arise from nothing. When faced with a yes/no decision, we FEEL as if we make it, but even if we think of it for a long time the thoughts are still out of your control.

Re: Free Will disproved
« Reply #33 on: November 13, 2018, 08:34:08 PM »
As far as free will goes, that's an entirely different discussion. It's a philosophical debate, really. You see, we can never really know whether free will exists or not, unless we can go back in time. Only then can you study the behaviors that would correlate with free will. Once a decision is made, it's made, and you can't go back in time, so you cannot study the opposite outcome unless there is a way to reverse the outcomes in the experiment - which would be to go back in time.
I disagree that we can't know without free will. The activity of mindfulness can allow us to observe the actions and limitations of our mind. Through this I've personally been able to observe the lack of control I have over my own thoughts. Not to mention the scientific method in relation to neurology, psychology, and other such related sciences.

Re: Free Will disproved
« Reply #34 on: November 13, 2018, 08:36:23 PM »
Couldn't this be fairly easily resolved depending on what your definition of "you" is? I wouldn't consider my thoughts, even subconscious ones that happen, to be different from "me". I may not be aware of the thoughts or chemical reactions going on, but they are what make up "me".

This is exactly what comes to my mind. You say "God" is telling you what to do, and that is the "voice" in your head. I think everyone can relate to that experience, and that "voice" is so familiar isn't it? It's familiar because it is actually you! YOU are the voice in your head! That is what consciousness is.
I do agree that there is no separation between "you" and the "voice" and that is where the problem is. Because there is not separation, one cannot demonstrate control over the other. The "voice" just happens on its own accord.

Re: Free Will disproved
« Reply #35 on: November 13, 2018, 08:39:46 PM »
The idea of luck is actually contrary to determinism. In fact, the idea that things are determined by luck is inherently paradoxical. Luck is a probabilistic quality, and therefore you could never make accurate determinations of an outcome if luck ever came into play. A universe without free will is a universe with no luck at all.

Anyone that thinks free will doesn't exist is free to tell me the deterministic equations for quantum mechanics. The moment you give me those, I'll believe you, until then, as far as we know, the universe is indeterministic. Again, you're free to prove otherwise by proving the universe is deterministic at a quantum level. Free will is a scientific concept that can falsified, but it hasn't yet, and I'm willing to bet none of you here have even tried to do so.
I would actually like to flip this and ask you to prove to me that I have control over the quantum activities that take place in my brain. Because I don't think that even if the universe were nondeterministic, it would prove free will because we couldn't exert our will at the quantum level.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2018, 08:43:33 PM by Imheretoo »

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Offline RonJ

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Re: Free Will disproved
« Reply #36 on: November 13, 2018, 08:53:51 PM »
I believe that your thoughts are like the software running in a computer.  It would be nice to take all my thoughts and load them into a new body because the one I'm in is old and has been in way too many wrecks.  Maybe someday that will be possible.  You probably do have 'free will' but everything is probabilistic.  Just because you want to do something doesn't guarantee that it will immediately happen.  However, if you keep trying the odds will favor your eventual success.  You probably know about Tom Campbell and 'My Big Toe'.  The older I get the more I can actually believe that we are just avatars in a video game being played by unknown entities.  That thought doesn't shock me too much and means that everything will get more interesting later on. 
For FE no explanation is possible, for RE no explanation is necessary.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Free Will disproved
« Reply #37 on: November 13, 2018, 09:43:06 PM »
I would actually like to flip this and ask you to prove to me that I have control over the quantum activities that take place in my brain. Because I don't think that even if the universe were nondeterministic, it would prove free will because we couldn't exert our will at the quantum level.

Free will isn't you saying "I have control over everything", which is impossible. Free will is based on the notion that you have no fate and that your destination was not predetermined. You are never in 100% control over your own life, but you're never in 0% control, either. Determinism only exists at 0% control. Indeterminism is everything greater than 0%. This is very easy to falsify, assuming you can show that probability is not actually a part of the universe.

This is why saying "no one has free will" is so much harder to prove. You have to prove that you can determine someone else's actions in advance, in such a way that they can never avoid that action. e.g. imagine a scenario where I tell you that you'll have a salad for dinner tomorrow, and no matter what you do, you MUST have a salad for dinner tomorrow. That is a lack of free will. However, if I tell you that you'll have a salad for dinner tomorrow, and then you don't, then that must be free will.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2018, 09:46:16 PM by Rushy »

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Free Will disproved
« Reply #38 on: November 13, 2018, 10:24:11 PM »
Free Will is also used to describe the agency you have in your actions and what is in dispute these days is to what degree our perception of our agency matches with the objective truth of our agency.
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Offline Snupes

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Re: Free Will disproved
« Reply #39 on: November 14, 2018, 01:51:12 AM »
Couldn't this be fairly easily resolved depending on what your definition of "you" is? I wouldn't consider my thoughts, even subconscious ones that happen, to be different from "me". I may not be aware of the thoughts or chemical reactions going on, but they are what make up "me".

Well sure, your thoughts and actions come from "you" (I'd hate for you to think I'm suggesting something supernatural is happening; I think I was making it clear that my use of "God" was more or less a placeholder for whatever physical principle is actually behind it), but they come reflexively, not as a result of any conscious act of will. You no more control your thoughts than you control the circulation of your blood or your knee's movement when struck by a mallet; in both cases, the actions are still coming from "you", in exactly the same sense as you mean, but there's no conscious act of will causing them. We are but machines after all.

Hi, wow, I'm a little late. I never saw this.

Anyway, sure, my point is that I am my subconscious, and that that's me making the decisions whether or not I'm aware of them. So, yeah, basically what you said in your second to last sentence. But I don't think that's a lack of free will at all, simply me not being consciously 100% aware of the decisions I make or when I make them.

Am I missing something obvious here? This seems too simple an answer.
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i also took an online quiz that said i was a giraffe.  and i guess you're dumb enough to believe that i must be because the internet said so.