Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017) - contains spoilers
« on: December 16, 2017, 04:46:18 PM »
*Spoilers covered up*

I went to see this yesterday, with some trepidation, I might add. I've been burned by the Star Wars franchise many times with Jar Jar, overdone CGi, weird story-lines and perversions of the original narrative.

As the yellow text scrolled up an the beginning, I could feel my scrotum scrunching my balls up. Why do I allow them to raise my hopes and then piss on them time and time again? I've never really enjoyed any of the remakes. Why would this one be different?

Well, actually it was. It is by far the most true to the original I have seen. The story line was pretty solid, we were back to muppets instead of CGI characters, it held onto the original elements of the saga rather than the Disney bastardisations, the new ships matched the old ships, the Jedi powers weren't straight up weird (but for one but that is a spoiler - Laia floating about space), and it just felt like an old school star wars. It had a little more humour written in, but that didn't ruin it. 

It is the first one since the 80's that I would say "Go and see, it won't upset you".

« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 01:20:04 AM by Baby Thork »
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017)
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2017, 10:31:04 PM »
I was worried at the beginning that they may try and do homage to Empire Strikes Back like The Force Awakens did for A New Hope. I was very pleased when it went its own way and I really enjoyed how they developed Ben and Rey. Some of Finn’s story felt a bit like extra fat that could be trimmed but I loved the circumstances the Resistance fleet was in.

I totally agree the humor was fun and not too much and I really enjoyed Luke’s story as well.
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Offline honk

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017)
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2017, 12:25:29 AM »
I'm not going to use spoiler tags in a dedicated thread. For "Just Watched," it's fair enough, but everyone clicking on this one ought to know what they're getting into. I hereby issue an official

spoiler warbling
I loved the part of this movie that focused on Rey, Luke, and Kylo. It's familiar because of the original trilogy, but twists things around enough to feel fresh by the end. I'm glad they killed off Snoke, and I find the outrage on reddit over him being "wasted" both baffling and amusing. Snoke was only ever a plot device to begin with, a necessary villain who had to exist simply because the First Order existed. Having Kylo now be in charge makes the most sense narratively, and it'll no doubt make for a great dynamic with Rey in the next movie.

You know what didn't make sense narratively? Wasting a huge amount of screen time in the second act on a wild goose chase that not only proved to be a resounding failure, but ended up delivering the intel to the First Order that led to the Resistance being all but wiped out. What the fuck? Why would you write this into a movie? All Finn, Poe, and Rose had to do was nothing, fucking nothing, and the Resistance would have escaped with their new base intact and a few hundred members left, rather than literally just a few. And why didn't Leia, or the lady who took charge after her, tell them that, rather than just keeping silent and letting them believe that there was literally no hope? I've seen some people argue that it was entirely intentional and tied into the movie's themes of failure and desperation, but the thing is, it's never even acknowledged that everything bad that happens in the final act is literally all the heroes' fault. Why couldn't the First Order have found out what the Resistance was up to by other means? It's such a tiny thing, but it would have made the rest of the movie so much easier to accept.

Or maybe the First Order shouldn't have found out about the Resistance's plans at all. The throne room scene, coupled with Finn and Rose's escape from the Star Destroyer, really ought to have been the climax of the movie. I didn't like that it felt the need to follow that up with a retread of the Battle of Hoth.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017)
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2017, 12:55:52 AM »
I totally agree with this. Aristotle was not wrong about the unities of time, place and action making for good drama. Keep it in the pressure cooker!

I know there are rumors that the slave children are the protagonists in Johnson’s follow up trilogy, but that still doesn’t justify shoehorning them in to a deflating and time wasting digression.

I thought the Rey, Ben, Snoke and Luke story was superb and the fleet story up to the sidetrack was good. Poe mutinying? Heck yeah! That was awesome!  Clandestine mission to disrupt the tracker? It’s a little like disabling the death star tractor beam, but I’m on board. If they had just found a way to make that work; hell, make Rose the code breaker and I think the final battle would not have seemed like so much extra.

On the battle, too bad they didn’t have the cojones to kill Finn there, because that would have been cool. Luke’s battle was awesome and the payoff was so much better than if he had actually survived the over the top barrage.

I find the bawing over Luke being embittered to be as ridiculous as the outrage over Snoke. It’s like they want to preserve Luke Skywalker as an idea rather than letting him real human journeys.

Overall, I liked it a lot despite its faults and thought it was a more than adequate sequel to FA. Can’t wait to see what’s next.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017)
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2017, 01:04:54 AM »
@honk

They are the only things that bother you?

Laia being frozen in space, her blood boiling from the cavitation before her cells solidify, and then magically opening her frozen solid eyelids, moving her moist eyes to focus on the ship and floating in like Peter Pan. That was a very stupid scene.

The whole Rey/Finn romance and being reunited at the end. I know they really really want a multi-racial love story, but its just stupid. She'd have been better off having a Padme/Anakin style relationship with Kylo. Could have been way more complex and full of intrigue and torn emotion than being into the dumb Storm Trooper. as mentioned he didn't even do anything in this episode. He's just there to allow the liberal left to rub black men with white women into the faces of conservatives. They even kill rose off (a better character), to clear the way for the Finn/Rey thing that is just implausible.

Why don't any of the dark side ever come back as ghosts? Top Jedi's always do. Why didn't Snoke come back and haunt the living crap out of Kylo?

Why do the red guards then fight Kylo after Snoke is dead? What are they fighting for? That's got to be career limiting. Who do they think is going to take over? The wet ginger guy or the space wizard?

Why did the purple-haired woman who stays on the fleeing rebel ship have to be a hero? She's like every dumb female middle manager I've ever met. Threatened by anyone else making a suggestion, defensive, happy not to tell anyone else what her plans are and incompetent. And that was fine. That's a personality type I can get on board with. But yet again, politics ... no woman can ever be portrayed as having character flaws. Really she is a secret hero that knows best and saves the day. Why? She's a bit part character.

The anime penguin/puffin things. Merch. I get it, but they were a little over used.

Luke's new superpower of being somewhere he isn't. What is the point of being somewhere else so that you can't be harmed, when doing so kills you from the effort anyway? Why not just fight Kylo in person and die like a man, instead of pretending to be there and dying of exhaustion on a rock? Its the same outcome. You delayed Kylo and still lost and died. Also Kylo clearly has a bit of a blind spot for feeling Luke's presence. Doesn't he possess all the Jedi skills, or just a select bunch that give him convenient vulnerabilities?

I don't think Benicio del Toro's character needed to stammer. It was an unnecessary character flaw. Over acting if you like.

They have incredible technology in this galaxy. Why hasn't chewbacca got google translate on his mobile? He's like Sooty ... only Rey can understand him. In fact Chewy would make a great partner for Rey. Big strong wooky, plenty of fur to hold on to, warm to cuddle at night, the tall strong silent type and would tick the Disney multi-racial relationship box. I'll be he stinks when it rains, but love can see through stuff like that.

Anyway, despite lots of plot holes but you get them in all starwars films, this was still the best 'new' one I've seen.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 01:19:03 AM by Baby Thork »
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017) - contains spoilers
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2017, 01:59:28 AM »
Leia story... meh. It was not great but not worth dwelling on.

There is no love story with Rey and Finn. Ben and Rey were still connected after all...

The red guys were fanatics, so they fought to avenge their fallen lord. Pretty standard trope.

Luke became one with the force after that because he learned what he needed to not from over exhaustion.

Benicio gonna Benicio. Love him or leave him.

Lots of people understand chewy. Who doesn’t?

I didn’t like her character either but the ship thing was awesome.

Maybe Snoke will come back.
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Offline Ghost Spaghetti

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017) - contains spoilers
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2017, 10:28:21 AM »
So I loved TLJ.

I loved the confidence in it, unlike TFA which seemed to be desperate for senpai to notice it, drowning in self-reference and ripoff homage, TLJ took those same expectations and presumptions and subverted them. The hot-headed rogue doesn't save the day by flying by seat-of-his-pants, in fact his recklessness is the driving force behind the fuck-up cascade. The legendary hero doesn't appear out of nowhere to save the day. Killing the Big Bad doesn't end the struggle. The villain doesn't do a face-heel-turn when presented with the chance to walk away from his path of evil.

There were problems with it. Leia's magic spacewalk, the casino bit - while I see what they were trying to do - could probably have stood to either have been shortened or left until episode IX. The whole film could probably have stood to be trimmed by about half an hour, but all that being said, I enjoyed it more than TFA and would probably put it alongside Rogue One in terms of enjoyment.


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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017) - contains spoilers
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2017, 02:01:18 PM »
Laia being frozen in space, her blood boiling from the cavitation before her cells solidify, and then magically opening her frozen solid eyelids, moving her moist eyes to focus on the ship and floating in like Peter Pan. That was a very stupid scene.

The Force is all around us, bro. Leia could use it to sustain her life functions and propel herself through space as surely as Yoda could raise an X-wing from a swamp. My own issue with that scene was simply that its execution was silly and overwrought. Things like her goofy outstretched pose. It could have worked nicely if it had been a bit more subtle and elegant.

Quote
The whole Rey/Finn romance and being reunited at the end. I know they really really want a multi-racial love story, but its just stupid. She'd have been better off having a Padme/Anakin style relationship with Kylo. Could have been way more complex and full of intrigue and torn emotion than being into the dumb Storm Trooper. as mentioned he didn't even do anything in this episode. He's just there to allow the liberal left to rub black men with white women into the faces of conservatives. They even kill rose off (a better character), to clear the way for the Finn/Rey thing that is just implausible.

Rose was injured, not killed, and the only Rey/Finn romance going on is the one in your head. I do agree with you that Finn is pretty bland as a character and didn't really feel like he belonged in a prominent role here. Circumstance didn't push him to the forefront like in TFA, and he doesn't have a strong personality like Han or Poe that would let him take charge.

The hot-headed rogue doesn't save the day by flying by seat-of-his-pants, in fact his recklessness is the driving force behind the fuck-up cascade.

Which is never addressed or acknowledged within the movie - in fact, it's casually brushed off with a smiling "Oh, you," leading me to question just how intentional it really was. I feel like they just made it up as they went along. Part of the blame also lies with Holdo and her lack of communication. It's one thing to not share every detail of a plan with subordinates, it's another to repeatedly refuse to indicate that there even is a plan, or even challenge the assumption that there's nothing to be done but wait to die. Like, even in the middle of the mutiny, she can't bring herself to explain that there's a very good reason behind what she's doing? It's an idiot plot.
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Offline Fortuna

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017)
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2017, 03:17:42 AM »
You know what didn't make sense narratively? Wasting a huge amount of screen time in the second act on a wild goose chase that not only proved to be a resounding failure, but ended up delivering the intel to the First Order that led to the Resistance being all but wiped out. What the fuck? Why would you write this into a movie?

This ruined the entire movie for me. The fact that critics are overlooking this and giving it good scores is troubling.

The hot-headed rogue doesn't save the day by flying by seat-of-his-pants

That's what Star Wars is supposed to be though.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2017, 03:20:00 AM by Hollocron »
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017)
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2017, 12:59:19 PM »
You know what didn't make sense narratively? Wasting a huge amount of screen time in the second act on a wild goose chase that not only proved to be a resounding failure, but ended up delivering the intel to the First Order that led to the Resistance being all but wiped out. What the fuck? Why would you write this into a movie?

This ruined the entire movie for me. The fact that critics are overlooking this and giving it good scores is troubling.

Aside from it being a bloaty addition, it was an entertaining sequence. That it led to a major clusterfuck is thematically woven in to the movie so it shouldn’t be that mystifying. Don’t get me wrong, I didn’t like it either, but it didn’t ruin anything else for me.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017)
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2017, 03:25:24 PM »
I was worried at the beginning that they may try and do homage to Empire Strikes Back like The Force Awakens did for A New Hope. I was very pleased when it went its own way and I really enjoyed how they developed Ben and Rey. Some of Finn’s story felt a bit like extra fat that could be trimmed but I loved the circumstances the Resistance fleet was in.

I totally agree the humor was fun and not too much and I really enjoyed Luke’s story as well.
Very much agree with the entirety of this post, especially in regard to character development, allowing me to develop some interest. I had zero interest in Rey, Finn, or Ren, in The Force Awakens.

I felt this movie was so much better than that movie.

My Star Wars list:
1) Revenge of the Sith
2) Empire Strikes Back
3) Return of the Jedi
4) The Last Jedi
5) Clone Wars
6) The Phantom Menace
7) Star Wars
8) The Force Awakens
« Last Edit: December 22, 2017, 09:07:10 PM by totallackey »

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017)
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2017, 11:18:48 PM »
You know what didn't make sense narratively? Wasting a huge amount of screen time in the second act on a wild goose chase that not only proved to be a resounding failure, but ended up delivering the intel to the First Order that led to the Resistance being all but wiped out. What the fuck? Why would you write this into a movie?

This ruined the entire movie for me. The fact that critics are overlooking this and giving it good scores is troubling.

Aside from it being a bloaty addition, it was an entertaining sequence. That it led to a major clusterfuck is thematically woven in to the movie so it shouldn’t be that mystifying. Don’t get me wrong, I didn’t like it either, but it didn’t ruin anything else for me.

That was the majority of the plot for the entire movie though. Aside from Rey’s little escapade to Luke’s Island:

“No I won’t help you. No. No. Nope. Get off of this island now. Okay I’ll help you.”

And then she trains for 5 minutes and suddenly is a Jedi who can take on multiple Imperial Guards.

Jarringly bad story, horrible continuity, mediocre acting. This one goes in the trash bin.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2017, 11:20:28 PM by Hollocron »
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017) - contains spoilers
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2017, 04:33:27 AM »
SPOILERS SPOLIERS SPOLIERS SPOLIERS

I liked TLJ a lot but the whole thing seems to scream "Billy, Don't Be A Hero"
Its unusual to find so many "WTF" moments in a Star Wars film.
This is just the filmmakers being clever and setting up plot points only to reverse them.
When they were all guns blazing at Luke did anyone guess he was a hologram?
I just thought "Wow, Luke's powerful now, must be really pissed off"

So I agree, the film was great, one of the best in the series, and also one of the most stupid and implausible.
But since the last major outing was about the lead up to "help me OB1" and had every character dying on a suicide mission with no chance of a sequel, well, what can we really expect...
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017)
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2017, 05:06:04 AM »
My Star Wars list:
1) Revenge of the Sith
2) Empire Strikes Back
3) Return of the Jedi
4) The Last Jedi
5) Clone Wars
6) The Phantom Menace
7) Star Wars
8) The Force Awakens

While we're on the subject of REEing about subjective opinions and critical dissonance, I'm going to take this time to argue that RotS was a bad movie that owed its relative success among critics and audiences largely due to people convincing themselves it was good just because it made some improvements over the last two movies. It still was a badly-written, badly-directed, badly-acted slog of excessive CGI and unlikable characters. And I hate its treatment of Jedi as flashy lightsaber ninjas with impossibly flawless fight choreography. (All the prequels did this, but RotS was arguably worst of all.) I know that if you've seen the Plinkett reviews of the prequels, you'll recognize where this is from, but it happens to be the most correct thing RLM have ever said. Yoda should not be bouncing around with a tiny fucking lightsaber so that he can fight someone. If Yoda wanted to take someone out, he could just wave his hand and put them into a coma. To keep saying, "No, everyone must take their lightsabers out and fly all over the place," is wrong wrong wrong, and I'm glad that TLJ, much like TFA, kept to the slower, more methodical lightsaber combat of the original trilogy, as well as limiting the lightsaber use in general.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017)
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2017, 08:01:15 AM »

That was the majority of the plot for the entire movie though. Aside from Rey’s little escapade to Luke’s Island:

“No I won’t help you. No. No. Nope. Get off of this island now. Okay I’ll help you.”

And then she trains for 5 minutes and suddenly is a Jedi who can take on multiple Imperial Guards.

That is a gross oversimplification.

Quote
Jarringly bad story, horrible continuity, mediocre acting. This one goes in the trash bin.

Matter of opinion but I can respect that, what does that even mean, nope, way better than Ep. 1-3.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017)
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2017, 08:08:28 AM »
While we're on the subject of REEing about subjective opinions and critical dissonance, I'm going to take this time to argue that RotS was a bad movie that owed its relative success among critics and audiences largely due to people convincing themselves it was good just because it made some improvements over the last two movies. It still was a badly-written, badly-directed, badly-acted slog of excessive CGI and unlikable characters. And I hate its treatment of Jedi as flashy lightsaber ninjas with impossibly flawless fight choreography. (All the prequels did this, but RotS was arguably worst of all.) I know that if you've seen the Plinkett reviews of the prequels, you'll recognize where this is from, but it happens to be the most correct thing RLM have ever said. Yoda should not be bouncing around with a tiny fucking lightsaber so that he can fight someone. If Yoda wanted to take someone out, he could just wave his hand and put them into a coma. To keep saying, "No, everyone must take their lightsabers out and fly all over the place," is wrong wrong wrong, and I'm glad that TLJ, much like TFA, kept to the slower, more methodical lightsaber combat of the original trilogy, as well as limiting the lightsaber use in general.

Not to mention that the entire notion of Yoda fighting with a lightsaber is anathema to his philosophy of the force.  Hayden Christiansen is a wooden, creepy moodbot and has been outacted by the entire cast of Spy Kids.  And let's not forget that Darth Vader's reaction to Padme dying is one of the most memeable moments in movie history.  Anyone who says that RotS is the best Star Wars movie should have their head checked and if they pass that, they owe everyone a 20,000 word essay on what lead them to this horrible moment in everyone's life.

Also, the Phantom Menace is not only the worst Star Wars movie's ever, it is one of the worst movie's ever, full stop.  I am not going to sit here and tell anyone that A New Hope is a cinematic masterpiece, but it at least had a solid story.  The Phantom Menace is basically gobbledigook and it still has to answer for introducing Jar Jar Binks to the world.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017) - contains spoilers
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2017, 10:37:58 PM »
Finally got to see VIII. It is objectively the best main story Star Wars movie ever. Okay maybe a tie with Empire.

Also, Saddam is mostly wrong as usual.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017) - contains spoilers
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2017, 05:21:57 AM »
Finally got to see VIII. It is objectively the best main story Star Wars movie ever. Okay maybe a tie with Empire.

>implying that Rogue One is better than all of these movies, including the original trilogy

Quote
Also, Saddam is mostly wrong as usual.

About what, pacifically? I mean, beyond Rogue One, which is a debate I refuse to have. Every defense I've read of the jumbled b-plot and its failure to properly pay off in the end insists that it's a parallel to Luke and Rey's story and ties into the general theme of failure, but that's not something that the movie itself really illustrates. Luke and Rey have complete arcs in this movie. They have a simple goal of turning Kylo to the light, fail at it, and are forced to confront their failures. That's very clearly what their part of the movie is "about." Anyone can see that. But the story for Finn, Poe, and Rose isn't "about" that at all. It's about the developing relationship between Finn and Rose and the social commentary during their visit to Canto Bight. (At least it is for Finn and Rose. Poe gives no indication that he's learned anything or changed as a person by the end of the movie.) The fact that the next thing they do is an enormous, catastrophic failure doesn't suddenly transform their arc into part of a grand thesis about the nature of failure. There's a world of difference between a character coming to terms with their failure and learning to accept its inevitability in an elaborate arc and a character simply failing at something spectacularly.

I hope you weren't claiming I was wrong about Yoda and the prequels. Yoda should not be bouncing around with a lightsaber. Nor should this guy:



Why don't the Jedi use any other weapons? Why does it always have to be a lightsaber? I want to see a Jedi who fights while dual-wielding blasters.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017) - contains spoilers
« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2018, 12:27:29 AM »
Why don't the Jedi use any other weapons? Why does it always have to be a lightsaber? I want to see a Jedi who fights while dual-wielding blasters.

Erm ...
Quote from: Obi-Wan Kenobi
It’s your father’s lightsaber. This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight. Not as clumsy or as random as a blaster, but a more elegant weapon for a more civilized age.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017) - contains spoilers
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2018, 11:32:13 PM »
That's just, like, his opinion, man, and it really only makes sense if you're thinking of the Jedi as being limited to humans. It's hard to imagine a more clumsy and random combat strategy than Yoda turning himself into a hairy pinball.
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