Offline 3DGeek

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The shape of the sun's spotlight.
« on: November 12, 2017, 02:50:17 PM »
We've all discussed here the issue of the sun being claimed to be a "spotlight"...per the Wiki.



But we know that can't be a true representation - the sun always illuminates 50% of the Earth's surface - and in that "unipolar" map - it would have to shine over a semi-circular shape in order to match what we see "in the real world".

We've also recently discussed the problem of how a "spotlight" sun can illuminate the moon and produce it's phases...and produce the phases of Venus and Mercury.  (The phases of Venus were discovered by Gallileo...so this isn't exactly new news!)

But what shape does the "spotlight" have to take on the "bipolar" map?



The map on the left is the "unipolar" map - which Tom Bishop claims was superseded in 1911 when the south pole was "discovered"...the map on the right is the one that replaced it (the "bipolar" map).

Tom (and others) have said that they don't know the actual shape of the FE map...but let's just suppose the map on the right is very roughly right...

Here is the area the sun must illuminate on the equinox at noon GMT:



...a sight to give any FE'er joy!   A nice circular flashlight sun on the equator and the prime meridian - lighting up both poles (just) and producing just the right sunrises and sunsets (well...assuming "magic perspective").

OK - so what does the sun illuminate 12 hours later?  Well - wherever it was day is now night - and wherever it was night is now day...so the flashlight sun is illuminating...oh...this isn't good:



Er...just like a flashlight!

But a couple of hours before - the sun was where that red dot is - heading west to make sunsets for the west coast of the USA.

Then, suddenly it "teleports" over to the opposite side of the world (or something like that) - and a few hours later:



And it's still illuminating the "west" side of the planet a bit...

This bipolar map is just insane...there is simply no way for the sun to stay overhead the equator without teleporting - and the "flashlight" effect has to be a circular beam of darkness when it's midnight on the prime meridian.

I don't think the people who came up with the bipolar map could have thought very carefully about this!

We could - with a little effort - track the actual illuminated places on the earth by simply looking at the PVoutput.org data for any given time of day and any given day of the year - so we can plot out the approximate shape of the "spotlight" for any time we choose just by looking at which solar panel plants are generating electricity.

I'm 100% certain we can invalidate ANY bipolar map by pushing the shape of the flashlight sun's beam into pretzels.


Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The shape of the sun's spotlight.
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2017, 03:19:42 PM »
Quote
But we know that can't be a true representation - the sun always illuminates 50% of the Earth's surface

Is there any evidence for this hypothesis?

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: The shape of the sun's spotlight.
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2017, 03:31:51 PM »
Quote
But we know that can't be a true representation - the sun always illuminates 50% of the Earth's surface

Is there any evidence for this hypothesis?

It isn’t a hypothesis, it is an empirical fact, verified by the experience of humanity. For my personal part, I have had frequent dialogue with people in Kuala Lumpur via Skype and they verified for me that when it was day for me it was night for them and vice versa.
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The shape of the sun's spotlight.
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2017, 03:37:10 PM »
Quote
But we know that can't be a true representation - the sun always illuminates 50% of the Earth's surface

Is there any evidence for this hypothesis?

It isn’t a hypothesis, it is an empirical fact, verified by the experience of humanity. For my personal part, I have had frequent dialogue with people in Kuala Lumpur via Skype and they verified for me that when it was day for me it was night for them and vice versa.

Your experience does not suggest that the sun illuminates 50% of the earth's surface at all times.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: The shape of the sun's spotlight.
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2017, 03:40:27 PM »
Quote
But we know that can't be a true representation - the sun always illuminates 50% of the Earth's surface

Is there any evidence for this hypothesis?

It isn’t a hypothesis, it is an empirical fact, verified by the experience of humanity. For my personal part, I have had frequent dialogue with people in Kuala Lumpur via Skype and they verified for me that when it was day for me it was night for them and vice versa.

Your experience does not suggest that the sun illuminates 50% of the earth's surface at all times.

I didn’t say it did, did I?
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: The shape of the sun's spotlight.
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2017, 03:50:15 PM »
Quote
But we know that can't be a true representation - the sun always illuminates 50% of the Earth's surface

Is there any evidence for this hypothesis?

It isn’t a hypothesis, it is an empirical fact, verified by the experience of humanity. For my personal part, I have had frequent dialogue with people in Kuala Lumpur via Skype and they verified for me that when it was day for me it was night for them and vice versa.

Your experience does not suggest that the sun illuminates 50% of the earth's surface at all times.

No - but the PVoutput.org data most certainly does.

So do you deny that when it's daytime here - it's nighttime someplace else?

You do know that you're starting to sound seriously crazy - right?   I mean these are VERY common human experiences - anyone who makes international phone calls can verify where it's daytime and where it's not.

Where would YOU draw the sunlit area of the bipolar Earth at 12 midnight GMT?

I guarantee you can't draw a nice simple "flashlight" shape that can't trivially be disproved...you have to end up with an inside-out flashlight like the one I drew.
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The shape of the sun's spotlight.
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2017, 06:34:01 PM »
No - but the PVoutput.org data most certainly does.

As we have discussed, the assessment given from that data is insufficient. The data also didn't show that 50% of the earth was illuminated at one time.

Quote
So do you deny that when it's daytime here - it's nighttime someplace else?

What are you talking about? Where did I say that? Are you making things up again?

Quote
You do know that you're starting to sound seriously crazy - right?   I mean these are VERY common human experiences - anyone who makes international phone calls can verify where it's daytime and where it's not.

Talking to someone who is experiencing night only tells us that they are experiencing night. It does not tell us that 50% of the earth is in daylight.

Quote
Where would YOU draw the sunlit area of the bipolar Earth at 12 midnight GMT?

Why would I put it anywhere? That is NOT the Flat Earth map. That is one possible map of the bi-polar model.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 06:36:21 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: The shape of the sun's spotlight.
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2017, 08:04:52 PM »
No - but the PVoutput.org data most certainly does.

As we have discussed, the assessment given from that data is insufficient. The data also didn't show that 50% of the earth was illuminated at one time.

Quote
So do you deny that when it's daytime here - it's nighttime someplace else?

What are you talking about? Where did I say that? Are you making things up again?

Quote
You do know that you're starting to sound seriously crazy - right?   I mean these are VERY common human experiences - anyone who makes international phone calls can verify where it's daytime and where it's not.

Talking to someone who is experiencing night only tells us that they are experiencing night. It does not tell us that 50% of the earth is in daylight.

Quote
Where would YOU draw the sunlit area of the bipolar Earth at 12 midnight GMT?

Why would I put it anywhere? That is NOT the Flat Earth map. That is one possible map of the bi-polar model.
Still you show no interest or ability in determining the shape of the earth to your satisfaction.

devils advocate

Re: The shape of the sun's spotlight.
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2017, 09:56:26 PM »

Why would I put it anywhere? That is NOT the Flat Earth map. That is one possible map of the bi-polar model.

Oh I see it's ONE possible map (apart from the fact that 3DGeek and Douglips have proved it's NOT possible). The Wiki only shows TWO maps, if there are more possibilities Tom please show them to us!

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The shape of the sun's spotlight.
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2017, 10:52:46 PM »

Why would I put it anywhere? That is NOT the Flat Earth map. That is one possible map of the bi-polar model.

Oh I see it's ONE possible map (apart from the fact that 3DGeek and Douglips have proved it's NOT possible). The Wiki only shows TWO maps, if there are more possibilities Tom please show them to us!

The Wiki shows two map possibilities to illustrate the two types of models we regularly talk about, and states that they are just possibilities.

The actual map is unknown, since all current distance data available was generated from a coordinate system where the earth is round, and this is unacceptable to assume.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: The shape of the sun's spotlight.
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2017, 11:03:51 PM »

The actual map is unknown, since all current distance data available was generated from a coordinate system where the earth is round, and this is unacceptable to assume.

What is your source for this?
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The shape of the sun's spotlight.
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2017, 11:05:52 PM »

The actual map is unknown, since all current distance data available was generated from a coordinate system where the earth is round, and this is unacceptable to assume.

What is your source for this?

A source for what? That the distance between Longitude/Latitude coordinate points depends on the earth being round?

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: The shape of the sun's spotlight.
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2017, 11:44:33 PM »

The actual map is unknown, since all current distance data available was generated from a coordinate system where the earth is round, and this is unacceptable to assume.

What is your source for this?

A source for what? That the distance between Longitude/Latitude coordinate points depends on the earth being round?

That distances were measured using the coordinate system.
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

Offline Mark_1984

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Re: The shape of the sun's spotlight.
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2017, 10:28:33 AM »
The bipolar map is clearly wrong.  I’ve sailed across the Pacific from Japan to Los Angeles.  It’s about 5500 miles and took about 15 days at 15 knots.  According to their map I’d have either fallen off the edge, or skirted land, neither of which happened

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: The shape of the sun's spotlight.
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2017, 12:43:07 PM »
Tom: Your super-cautious approach to the PVoutput.org data with concerns over the exact timing of sunrise and sunset is hardly relevant to your bipolar map problem. 

Your silly map can be disproven just by looking at where it's DEFINITELY sunny and where it's DEFINITELY dark.

FACT 1: We know that it's dark at midnight in west/central Africa...even you will not deny this, surely?
FACT 2: At the same moment, 11 time zones away to the East it's an hour after noon, and it's sunny.
FACT 3: At the same moment, 11 time zones away to the West it's an hour before noon, and it's sunny.

So where is the sun when it's midnight in central Africa?   Is it way over to the left of your map or way over to the right?

There is no sudden transition from day to night at noon in pacific islands close to the international date line - so how can you avoid the midnight-in-Africa map being something more or less like this?



We know it can be dawn in eastern china when it's dusk on the west coast of the USA.   Are there two suns?   Does "magic perspective" bend the light in a new and exciting ways to allow the sun to appear to be on both sides of the map at once?

So do kindly tell us the path of the sun over the two hours surrounding midnight on the prime meridian?
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?