Offline 3DGeek

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    • What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset
Disproof: Neither map explains the equinox.
« on: November 10, 2017, 05:07:20 AM »
[EDIT: I got "lines of longitude" mixed up with "lines of latitude"...all better now!]

There are two equinoxes per year - on March 20th and September 22nd...give or take a day because of leap years.

All places on the same line of longitude see the sun at it's highest point at noon on that day (unless they are in some crazy time-zone screwup).

At that moment, the sun is due north or south of the zenith of the sky depending on whether you are north or south of the equator.

This means that lines of longitude in FET must be straight north/south lines.

That disproves the "bipolar" map because it has curved lines of longitude.  On the equinox, some places on Earth would see the sun somewhat to the east or west of the zenith.

That leaves us with a unipolar map as the ONLY possible FE map.  It could be either the current (discredited) unipolar map - or it could be one with the south pole in the middle and an "ice wall" around the north pole.

Sadly, we know that the unipolar map can't be true because the Southern cross constellation can't be south of every place in the southern hemisphere at once...and a similar argument would apply with the "inverse unipolar" map and Polaris.

Hence the unipolar map can't be true either.

Since no bipolar map can have straight lines of longitude - and there are only two possible unipolar maps, neither of which work...it can only be that the world isn't flat.

(Probably Tom will tell us that magic perspective fixes this - light rays tying themselves into pretzels, yadda, yadda.)
« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 11:08:18 PM by 3DGeek »
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

devils advocate

Re: Disproof: Neither map explains the equinox.
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2017, 01:29:17 PM »
As has been mentioned before, a "like" option would be a great addition to this site and were it to happen this post would get one.

The crazy thing is that whilst the structural shape of earth could be a problem to observe the bit on top, the bit we live on should offer no such problems.

Thus the failure of FET to produce a map, even a basic one that fits with what we SEE (stars, moon phases, sun patterns etc etc) just furthers my belief that this site is populated by "out" RE's and those other round earthers in the closet of disbelief masquerading as FE's. Oh and those trolls who just love a wind up.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Disproof: Neither map explains the equinox.
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2017, 02:25:41 PM »
I think the OP meant that all lines of longitude must straight north south lines.
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

Re: Disproof: Neither map explains the equinox.
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2017, 03:57:50 PM »
In addition to Rama Set's comment to the excellent post by 3D (once again...),  may I clarify another point of understanding. At equinox, the sun generally is not a its highest at noon : this depends on the localisation of the considered place within its time zone, as well as on the value of the time equation (see wikipedia for more details if needed) which is about 7mn (plus or minus) at the time of equinoxes.
The important fact is that at equinox all the places on earth with the same longitude have the sun at its highest exactly at the same instant of time, not very far from but not necessarily at noon.
I think this was what 3D had in mind when writing his post, and what anybody here with good faith has understood...
Non native English speaker... I beg for your indulgence, but feel free to correct me when necessary!

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Disproof: Neither map explains the equinox.
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2017, 04:17:00 PM »
The important fact is that at equinox all the places on earth with the same longitude have the sun at its highest exactly at the same instant of time, not very far from but not necessarily at noon.
I think this was what 3D had in mind when writing his post, and what anybody here with good faith has understood...

Where are the reports that any of this happens? I have been in threads where we have repeatedly asked for evidence of such, over many pages, without progress.

Is it unreasonable to ask for basic evidence of this phenomena you guys are bringing to the table?

While a 12+ hour day is possible in a Flat Earth model, I don't see why we should discuss or attempt to explain this thought experiment of yours without having external data sets of what happens in reality.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 04:19:17 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Disproof: Neither map explains the equinox.
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2017, 04:24:20 PM »
There are two equinoxes per year - on March 20th and September 22nd...give or take a day because of leap years.

All places on the same line of latitude see the sun at it's highest point at noon on that day (unless they are in some crazy time-zone screwup).

At that moment, the sun is due north or south of the zenith of the sky depending on whether you are north or south of the equator.

...

(Probably Tom will tell us that magic perspective fixes this - light rays tying themselves into pretzels, yadda, yadda.)

Actually, I am just going to politely ask you yet again (maybe not you specifically, it just feels like I've asked you guys hundreds of times for this) for reports or basic evidence that these assertions are true.

Until this matter is satisfied there is really nothing for us to talk about. I may as well go over to the My Little Pony forum and talk about the governance of a hypothetical world filled with magic ponies if I am going to engage into your hypotheticals.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 04:27:27 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Disproof: Neither map explains the equinox.
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2017, 04:30:11 PM »
The important fact is that at equinox all the places on earth with the same longitude have the sun at its highest exactly at the same instant of time, not very far from but not necessarily at noon.
I think this was what 3D had in mind when writing his post, and what anybody here with good faith has understood...

Where are the reports that any of this happens? I have been in threads where we have repeatedly asked for evidence of such, over many pages, without progress.

Is it unreasonable to ask for basic evidence of this phenomena you guys are bringing to the table?

While a 12+ hour day is possible in a Flat Earth model, I don't see why we should discuss or attempt to explain this thought experiment of yours without having external data sets of what happens in reality.
This is why these threads will never get anywhere. "Common knowledge/experience" isn't accepted by the FE side. They'd rather have an experiment with shoddy documentation so long as it supports their view. Anything opposing it will be held to the highest of standards though.

I can confirm the website is accurate to within 1 minute for every day I've looked at it, from every location I've looked at it or had an acquaintance look. This includes West coast USA, Midwest USA, Australia, Ireland, and the UK. This suggests a very good degree of accuracy, such that it shouldn't matter how they arrive at their numbers, they are correct to within an acceptable margin.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Disproof: Neither map explains the equinox.
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2017, 04:36:46 PM »
This is why these threads will never get anywhere. "Common knowledge/experience" isn't accepted by the FE side.

You are bringing us a hypothesis and demanding that we explain it. Do you have no sense of reason?

None of this "I proved it myself the other day" or "I proved that myself when I was a 13 year old child" baloney that gets posted either. Thanks.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 04:48:10 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Disproof: Neither map explains the equinox.
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2017, 04:43:42 PM »
This is why these threads will never get anywhere. "Common knowledge/experience" isn't accepted by the FE side.

You are bringing us a hypothesis and demanding that we explain it. Do you have no sense of reason?

None of this "I proved it myself the other day" or "I proved ithat when I was a 13 year old child" baloney either.
You do not accept tables of night and day times if they include predictions. You are not even claiming they are wrong, just that they are not sufficient proof for you to explain how your theory accounts for what I assume you accept.
We generally accept evidence from all  sources.

The only evidence for Round Earth celestial accuracy (assuming that timeanddate is even based on RET) is the evidence you collected with your friends last month?

Re: Disproof: Neither map explains the equinox.
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2017, 04:46:05 PM »
This is why these threads will never get anywhere. "Common knowledge/experience" isn't accepted by the FE side.

You are bringing us a hypothesis and demanding that we explain it. Do you have no sense of reason?

None of this "I proved it myself the other day" or "I proved ithat when I was a 13 year old child" baloney either.
*You*, are the only one claiming the timing of the day length on the equinox is a hypothesis. Give a solid standard of evidence, and hold everything to it including Rowbotham. As it stands you hold us to a higher one, and him to a far lower one. As I explained in the thread we were discussing theodolites in when you asked us to address the substance rather than the age.

*You* are the one saying reporting that the sites times are correct whenever measured isn't enough. What do you expect? Rowbotham's are barely more than that in many cases. How would we even present more than that? It's a table telling us what we should see. There's not much to do beyond confirm or deny it.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Disproof: Neither map explains the equinox.
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2017, 05:03:58 PM »
*You*, are the only one claiming the timing of the day length on the equinox is a hypothesis.

You guys have been unable to find evidence for this since the original forum was started in 2007. When this thread is started the request for basic evidence for the asserted phenomena quickly halts any further discussion. The problem is not with us.

Re: Disproof: Neither map explains the equinox.
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2017, 05:14:18 PM »
*You*, are the only one claiming the timing of the day length on the equinox is a hypothesis.

You guys have been unable to find evidence for this since the original forum was started in 2007. When this thread is started the request for basic evidence for the asserted phenomena quickly halts any further discussion. The problem is not with us.
I have testimony from no less than four people that the times given on that site are accurate, from an equal number of places around the globe including one in the southern hemisphere. You demand more evidence that those times are accurate. What more is there to give?

You decry the equinox being a roughly 12 hour day as a hypothesis. Yet not a single source that talks about it disputes this idea. You demand evidence for something viewed as common knowledge, because it derails the thread and prevents you from having to talk about the 12 hour day across the world.

What is your standard for evidence for any of this? Because we've met the one set by Rowbotham.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Disproof: Neither map explains the equinox.
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2017, 05:22:40 PM »
*You*, are the only one claiming the timing of the day length on the equinox is a hypothesis.

You guys have been unable to find evidence for this since the original forum was started in 2007. When this thread is started the request for basic evidence for the asserted phenomena quickly halts any further discussion. The problem is not with us.
I have testimony from no less than four people that the times given on that site are accurate, from an equal number of places around the globe including one in the southern hemisphere. You demand more evidence that those times are accurate. What more is there to give?

You decry the equinox being a roughly 12 hour day as a hypothesis. Yet not a single source that talks about it disputes this idea. You demand evidence for something viewed as common knowledge, because it derails the thread and prevents you from having to talk about the 12 hour day across the world.

What is your standard for evidence for any of this? Because we've met the one set by Rowbotham.

Referencing the angry RE noobs who post "timeanddate werks for me!" in these discussions is not a good source of evidence.

Re: Disproof: Neither map explains the equinox.
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2017, 05:26:09 PM »
All places on the same line of latitude see the sun at it's highest point at noon on that day (unless they are in some crazy time-zone screwup).
longitude?

Applies throughout your argument, I believe.

Re: Disproof: Neither map explains the equinox.
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2017, 05:31:17 PM »
*You*, are the only one claiming the timing of the day length on the equinox is a hypothesis.

You guys have been unable to find evidence for this since the original forum was started in 2007. When this thread is started the request for basic evidence for the asserted phenomena quickly halts any further discussion. The problem is not with us.
I have testimony from no less than four people that the times given on that site are accurate, from an equal number of places around the globe including one in the southern hemisphere. You demand more evidence that those times are accurate. What more is there to give?

You decry the equinox being a roughly 12 hour day as a hypothesis. Yet not a single source that talks about it disputes this idea. You demand evidence for something viewed as common knowledge, because it derails the thread and prevents you from having to talk about the 12 hour day across the world.

What is your standard for evidence for any of this? Because we've met the one set by Rowbotham.

Referencing the angry RE noobs who post "timeanddate werks for me!" in these discussions is not a good source of evidence.
Who? I'm referring to four people whom I know, none of which post on these forums. One in the UK, one in Ireland, one in Australia, and one on the West coast USA.

Let's try this again. I'll go slow. What. Is. Your. Standard. For. Evidence. Of. Timeanddates. Accuracy?

Re: Disproof: Neither map explains the equinox.
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2017, 05:31:52 PM »
You guys have been unable to find evidence for this since the original forum was started in 2007. When this thread is started the request for basic evidence for the asserted phenomena quickly halts any further discussion. The problem is not with us.
What evidence coud you want that hasn't been provided?
We have provided predictions from major organisations, historic references to the equinox being of equal night and day, personal verifications from around the world.
Do we need to get people with a telling the time licence who also don't make predictions?
We generally accept evidence from all  sources.

The only evidence for Round Earth celestial accuracy (assuming that timeanddate is even based on RET) is the evidence you collected with your friends last month?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Disproof: Neither map explains the equinox.
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2017, 05:55:42 PM »
Who? I'm referring to four people whom I know, none of which post on these forums. One in the UK, one in Ireland, one in Australia, and one on the West coast USA.

Let's try this again. I'll go slow. What. Is. Your. Standard. For. Evidence. Of. Timeanddates. Accuracy?

Real records of observations by independent observers are required. "Werks for me and my friends" is not a sufficient response.

Re: Disproof: Neither map explains the equinox.
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2017, 05:57:28 PM »
Who? I'm referring to four people whom I know, none of which post on these forums. One in the UK, one in Ireland, one in Australia, and one on the West coast USA.

Let's try this again. I'll go slow. What. Is. Your. Standard. For. Evidence. Of. Timeanddates. Accuracy?

Records of observations by independent observers are required. "Werks for me and my friends" is not a sufficient response.
Define "record of observation" in this case. Just so we're 100% on the same page here. Because what had been provided could be considered roughly equivalent to a verbal record of observation for five independent observers in most courts.

Defining a duration over which they must take place would also be useful.

Edit: Giantturtle also appears to have supplied one in the other thread.

http://astro.ukho.gov.uk/nao/online/index.html#dmdiag

Re: Disproof: Neither map explains the equinox.
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2017, 06:10:20 PM »
Tom, Would a webcam of these locations be sufficient?

Squirrel, is it possible your friends are lying about seeing twelve hour days so they don't have to share their Nobel prize with you?
« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 06:15:10 PM by GiantTurtle »
We generally accept evidence from all  sources.

The only evidence for Round Earth celestial accuracy (assuming that timeanddate is even based on RET) is the evidence you collected with your friends last month?

Re: Disproof: Neither map explains the equinox.
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2017, 06:19:31 PM »
Tom, Would a webcam of these locations be sufficient?

Squirrel, is it possible your friends are lying about seeing twelve hour days so they don't have to share their Nobel prize with you?
Not even talking about equinox here, just the validity of timeanddates sunrise/set times. All I'm looking to show is it's accurate enough to be trusted based on observations from around the Earth. Thus showing times listed for equinox are correct.