The FE map, airlines and ground distances
« on: November 05, 2017, 09:40:26 AM »
The available flat earth map has lots of defects in aerial and ground distances, so it is wrong and we need to draw another map. But only this map describes the right position of sun around the world. It's a real contradiction... How can you solve it?

devils advocate

Re: The FE map, airlines and ground distances
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2017, 09:47:37 AM »
To solve it one could;

1) Refute the available map and state that it does not represent ones own opinion.
2) Refute the distances on the RE map by questioning the validity of how they came to be determined.
3) Refute any data relating to speed and distance that planes fly, one could state that "Airplane manufacturers don't know how fast their planes will fly"


Offline mtnman

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Re: The FE map, airlines and ground distances
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2017, 04:14:41 PM »
That reminds me of the job of a defense attorney when he knows his client is guilty. He can't  prove an alibi, or lack of motive or access. So the only thing he can do is to try to introduce doubt in the minds of the jury.

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Re: The FE map, airlines and ground distances
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2017, 05:31:10 PM »
That reminds me of the job of a defense attorney when he knows his client is guilty. He can't  prove an alibi, or lack of motive or access. So the only thing he can do is to try to introduce doubt in the minds of the jury.

The similarities are many mtnman, and could be taken further to explain some if the deflection tactics used here.

Re: The FE map, airlines and ground distances
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2017, 08:02:23 AM »
To solve it one could;

1) Refute the available map and state that it does not represent ones own opinion.
2) Refute the distances on the RE map by questioning the validity of how they came to be determined.
3) Refute any data relating to speed and distance that planes fly, one could state that "Airplane manufacturers don't know how fast their planes will fly"

We can not solve contradiction by refuting lots of things. Because the contradiction remains contradiction. We can not draw a possible map for flat earth because if we try to draw one it has lots of problems and if we change it, other problems come in.

devils advocate

Re: The FE map, airlines and ground distances
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2017, 04:09:47 PM »
To solve it one could;

1) Refute the available map and state that it does not represent ones own opinion.
2) Refute the distances on the RE map by questioning the validity of how they came to be determined.
3) Refute any data relating to speed and distance that planes fly, one could state that "Airplane manufacturers don't know how fast their planes will fly"

We can not solve contradiction by refuting lots of things. Because the contradiction remains contradiction. We can not draw a possible map for flat earth because if we try to draw one it has lots of problems and if we change it, other problems come in.

But if we refute any map and say we don't have one then we don't have to admit any of the problems with it exist.

Same with the other "info"-simply refute that you have any accurate data (i.e. how do you know the distance between New York and Paris for example? If you have not measured it yourself your distances will not be valid on this site as Google maps is deemed fake (by some) as it uses satellite technology which can not exist according to some FE's. You see where we are going with this?

Not as simple as using Round earth "facts and data " to prove Flat earth wrong I'm afraid.  :o

Re: The FE map, airlines and ground distances
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2017, 05:19:05 PM »
To solve it one could;

1) Refute the available map and state that it does not represent ones own opinion.
2) Refute the distances on the RE map by questioning the validity of how they came to be determined.
3) Refute any data relating to speed and distance that planes fly, one could state that "Airplane manufacturers don't know how fast their planes will fly"

We can not solve contradiction by refuting lots of things. Because the contradiction remains contradiction. We can not draw a possible map for flat earth because if we try to draw one it has lots of problems and if we change it, other problems come in.

But if we refute any map and say we don't have one then we don't have to admit any of the problems with it exist.

Same with the other "info"-simply refute that you have any accurate data (i.e. how do you know the distance between New York and Paris for example? If you have not measured it yourself your distances will not be valid on this site as Google maps is deemed fake (by some) as it uses satellite technology which can not exist according to some FE's. You see where we are going with this?

Not as simple as using Round earth "facts and data " to prove Flat earth wrong I'm afraid.  :o

We can not refute everything because the problem of ground distances and orientations remain. We walk and drive everywhere and all of distances are logical in google maps scale which is constant every where around the earth.

devils advocate

Re: The FE map, airlines and ground distances
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2017, 06:12:10 PM »

We can not refute everything because the problem of ground distances and orientations remain. We walk and drive everywhere and all of distances are logical in google maps scale which is constant every where around the earth.

When I went from the UK to Canada, Australia, Cyprus, Kenya and Sierra Leone I'm pretty sure I didn't walk or drive (What with the ocean and all).  :o

And here's the rub, how do you KNOW the distances across the seas?

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Offline xenotolerance

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Re: The FE map, airlines and ground distances
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2017, 06:28:26 PM »
In a few specific cases, you can establish an upper bound based on the length of transoceanic cables.  Another source, pages 38 & 39 of this book have tables with lengths of some historic cables, including one from New York to Paris that was 4023 miles long. This is a few hundred miles more than the distance between New York and Paris reported on Google maps, 3650 miles.

The thread where transoceanic cables came up eventually led to this post from Rounder:

I have been working off and on for months gathering data to illustrate the quadrilateral problem (a lot more “off” than “on” to be honest).  I want to connect the dots from four or more faraway cities with reliable nonstop service.  I have identified several promising candidates (all maps below are using Web Mercator projection)

The first set is the “Santiago Quatro” of Santiago Chile (SCL), Auckland (AKL), Sydney (SYD), and Honolulu (HNL).  One weakness of this set: Aukland and Sydney aren’t that far apart on a global scale, with an average flight time of only two and a half hours.  This means this quad might not really prove much vis-a-vis the quadrilateral problem, but is nevertheless useful as a benchmark for east-west flight times across the South Pacific (AKL-SCL 10:30, SCL-AKL 12:30, SYD-SCL12:00, SCL-SYD 13:40).

......

It's a huge post with tons of maps and info, I only snipped the first one. The idea is that these sets of four cities make quadrilaterals that must be on a curved surface; the distances between each of the four points can not possibly exist on a flat surface.

Re: The FE map, airlines and ground distances
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2017, 06:41:16 AM »
instead of using planes - use boats - like Samuelson & Harbo in 1896.  I am not going to compute this right now (or probably ever) cause I work & this is getting to be my bedtime.  but maybe someone more inclined may do it.  air travel is not acceptable - but rowing, sailing might be.

Re: The FE map, airlines and ground distances
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2017, 07:26:24 AM »
How could a boat be acceptable if an airplane isn't? The uncertainty about the airplane is that wind can change the actual speed. The same is true for boats and currents.

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: The FE map, airlines and ground distances
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2017, 04:20:14 PM »
The available flat earth map has lots of defects in aerial and ground distances, so it is wrong and we need to draw another map. But only this map describes the right position of sun around the world. It's a real contradiction... How can you solve it?

The FE'ers deny that they have a map of the Earth.

They hope that this will prevent us nay-sayers from disproving their hypothesis on the basis of flaws in their maps.

However, there are several classes of proof that not only are the two commonly posted maps impossible - but that ANY flat map is impossible.   This means that failure to produce a true FE map is no defense.

Just yesterday, I showed that any true FE map would have to have straight lines of longitude in order to reproduce actual real-world sunrise and sunset times at the equinox.   Today, I show that the sun would have to cast light on the Earth in some very peculiar and every-changing ways in order to come anywhere remotely close to real-world experience.

Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The FE map, airlines and ground distances
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2017, 04:35:15 PM »
Today, I show that the sun would have to cast light on the Earth in some very peculiar and every-changing ways in order to come anywhere remotely close to real-world experience.

Your debating style starts off with "since we KNOW that the sun illunimates 50% of the world at all times..." and continue with the therefores. You continuously lie about our positions and you lie about the supposedly conclusive evidence which you have not shown to be true, such as with the power site showing that the earth is in constant 50% illumination. Why shoud we bother to talk to you?
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 04:38:39 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: The FE map, airlines and ground distances
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2017, 05:22:45 PM »
Today, I show that the sun would have to cast light on the Earth in some very peculiar and every-changing ways in order to come anywhere remotely close to real-world experience.

Your debating style starts off with "since we KNOW that the sun illunimates 50% of the world at all times..." and continue with the therefores. You continuously lie about our positions and you lie about the supposedly conclusive evidence which you have not shown to be true, such as with the power site showing that the earth is in constant 50% illumination. Why shoud we bother to talk to you?
Actually we do know the sun illuminates 50% of the earth, sometimes clouds get in the way.  We have yet to see any numbers from you.

Offline StinkyOne

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Re: The FE map, airlines and ground distances
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2017, 11:52:09 PM »
Today, I show that the sun would have to cast light on the Earth in some very peculiar and every-changing ways in order to come anywhere remotely close to real-world experience.

Your debating style starts off with "since we KNOW that the sun illunimates 50% of the world at all times..." and continue with the therefores. You continuously lie about our positions and you lie about the supposedly conclusive evidence which you have not shown to be true, such as with the power site showing that the earth is in constant 50% illumination. Why shoud we bother to talk to you?

First, it is nearly impossible to make an accurate statement about your positions because you don't have solidly defined positions. (dome, no dome, UA, infinite plane, ice wall, no ice wall, monopole, bipolar (lol)) It has been pointed out by several FEers that your views differ from the standard FEers' views. It is very convenient to not have a firm standing - gives you wiggle room.

The Earth is half lit at all times. We know when the sun rises and sets and where cities are on the Earth. No need to prove it to your satisfaction at all. You don't even have a map, so until you do, you should stop calling people out. The maps we use work, so they are accurate.

You've clearly picked up on Pete's strategy of making untrue blanket statements and attacking the poster personally instead of their argument. Typical of those on the losing side of an argument. 3D has been wrong, but I've never seen anything that would make me conclude he is a liar.
I saw a video where a pilot was flying above the sun.
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Offline 3DGeek

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Re: The FE map, airlines and ground distances
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2017, 10:21:01 PM »
Today, I show that the sun would have to cast light on the Earth in some very peculiar and every-changing ways in order to come anywhere remotely close to real-world experience.

Your debating style starts off with "since we KNOW that the sun illunimates 50% of the world at all times..." and continue with the therefores. You continuously lie about our positions and you lie about the supposedly conclusive evidence which you have not shown to be true, such as with the power site showing that the earth is in constant 50% illumination. Why shoud we bother to talk to you?
Actually we do know the sun illuminates 50% of the earth, sometimes clouds get in the way.  We have yet to see any numbers from you.

You have to forgive Tom - he's a bit flustered because we found PVoutput.org - which shows the amount of power generated by about a million solar power plants around the world.

We can use this to generate approximate sunrise and sunset times for any location on Earth and any day of the year...sun comes up...power goes on...sun goes down...power goes off.

This is a dangerous thing for FE'ers - and Tom knows it.   So he's currently floundering around looking for a reason to discard this data source...as he's tried to timeanddate.org and airline flight data.

Basically, having hard data is something Tom demands at ever stage - and then recoils from when it's provided to him.

So - currently, we know that solar power plants don't start generating power right at the moment the sun rises - there seems to be about a 15 minute delay.  That's probably because the glass on the panels undergoes total internal reflection at such shallow angles.   But it really doesn't matter.

For the purposes of the things we wish to demonstrate here - it's quite sufficient to have approximate data.   All we need to know is that on the equinox, all of the power plants start and stop generating power at about the same time.   That's plenty good enough to demolish both of the maps the FE'ers present AND to clearly demonstrate that no "bipolar map" can ever work.

Obviously this is not good news for Tom - so he's in "panic mode" right now.

Meanwhile - I'm on the hunt for the source data recorded by Dutch sailors about "The Green Flash"...that would make for a very elegant disproof of FET.


Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The FE map, airlines and ground distances
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2017, 03:37:36 AM »
You have to forgive Tom - he's a bit flustered because we found PVoutput.org - which shows the amount of power generated by about a million solar power plants around the world.

We can use this to generate approximate sunrise and sunset times for any location on Earth and any day of the year...sun comes up...power goes on...sun goes down...power goes off.

Where have you used that data to show that 50% of the earth is illuminated at all times?

Offline mtnman

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Re: The FE map, airlines and ground distances
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2017, 04:04:07 AM »
All we need to know is that on the equinox, all of the power plants start and stop generating power at about the same time.   That's plenty good enough to demolish both of the maps the FE'ers present AND to clearly demonstrate that no "bipolar map" can ever work.

Just to clarify, I assume you meant all the power plants along the same longitude start and stop about the same time.

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: The FE map, airlines and ground distances
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2017, 01:45:26 PM »
All we need to know is that on the equinox, all of the power plants start and stop generating power at about the same time.   That's plenty good enough to demolish both of the maps the FE'ers present AND to clearly demonstrate that no "bipolar map" can ever work.

Just to clarify, I assume you meant all the power plants along the same longitude start and stop about the same time.

Yeah - for some reason (and despite working in Geographical Information Systems for the past 30 years) - I still get latitude and longitude lines mixed up!   Why this is, I do not know!  It's quite ridiculous!  Most of the software I use (and write) uses ECEF X,Y,Z coordinates (Earth Centered, East Facing)...so I only have to deal with lat/lon coordinates in two places...where I convert them to ECEF input and (rarely) where I convert them back again for user displays and such.

Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

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Offline gizmo910

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Re: The FE map, airlines and ground distances
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2017, 02:15:25 PM »
Yeah - for some reason (and despite working in Geographical Information Systems for the past 30 years) - I still get latitude and longitude lines mixed up!   Why this is, I do not know!  It's quite ridiculous!  Most of the software I use (and write) uses ECEF X,Y,Z coordinates (Earth Centered, East Facing)...so I only have to deal with lat/lon coordinates in two places...where I convert them to ECEF input and (rarely) where I convert them back again for user displays and such.
A good way I was taught to remember was latitudes are like a "ladder" between N<>S and longitudes go "along" the equator E<>W. Maybe that'll help you.
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