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Offline J-Man

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2000 year old Antikythera Mechanism proves FE belief.
« on: October 05, 2017, 10:43:23 PM »
Derek De Solla Price did what no man could or would do. It wasn't till he died that the powers that be, added to the Antikythera Mechanism the planets, to justify a globe earth. What Price built and uncovered was a mechanism that only had the Sun and Moon tracking. Dig deep in this and one will find it similar to this website. The few Geniuses and the many deceivers all day everyday yelling no no no it's a globe earth. You mean nothing. There is no God.....

Got news for you, there is a God, earth is flat and once again 2000 years ago it's proven.

Study and look up
The J-Man cometh

What kind of person would devote endless hours posting scientific facts trying to correct the few retards who believe in the FE? I slay shitty little demons.

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Offline AstralSentient

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Re: 2000 year old Antikythera Mechanism proves FE belief.
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2017, 03:34:34 AM »
The Antikythera mechanism is quite an extraordinary mapping of celestial movements. It could predict for centuries. It wasn't based on a globe or heliocentrism, it didn't need it.
Proud advocate of the Relativity Non-Euclidean plane

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: 2000 year old Antikythera Mechanism proves FE belief.
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2017, 03:43:40 AM »
I will fill you in on something. The methods used in modern astronomy are still based on pattern prediction, and not really on a geometric model of the solar system. Such geometric models exist, but are inaccurate and not in use. The main methods are the same pattern-based methods the ancients used. Astronomy has never changed.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Hmmm

Re: 2000 year old Antikythera Mechanism proves FE belief.
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2017, 04:24:11 AM »
It's weird ???: looks like, maybe, we've all gone into a possible parallel universe reality, where the sun and the moon are a little bit different with, sometimes, different path patterns, or if two parallel realities merged together...

J-Man, i should say, both mechanisms, and many others, could be faked by self-proclaimed "slavemasters" of humanity, which you may know from the bible as fallen angels or "minions of satan".

The only thing that's left, is to scrupulously compare real life, independent 2 month-long observations, with these two mechanisms..
I know it's crazy and stupid to say that, but i still think, that we can't fully rely, without getting errors, on past observations.
But i might be wrong too.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2017, 04:26:53 AM by Hmmm »

Offline mtnman

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Re: 2000 year old Antikythera Mechanism proves FE belief.
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2017, 04:39:48 AM »
I will fill you in on something. The methods used in modern astronomy are still based on pattern prediction, and not really on a geometric model of the solar system. Such geometric models exist, but are inaccurate and not in use. The main methods are the same pattern-based methods the ancients used. Astronomy has never changed.
Debunked with 5 second Google search. A new near Earth asteroid discovered earlier this year. It has an orbit of 2.37 years. You suggest that could only know the pattern of an orbit after observing it. So wouldn't that take 2.37 years? (Reference below)

Pictures of far distant galaxies from Hubble. Pictures of gravitational lensing effects. Discover of exo-planets. Discovery of planets beyond Saturn. The ability to view stellar objects with non visible light such as radio or x-rays. Discovery of the microwave background. Etc. The idea that astronomy has never changed is one of the most ridiculous statements I've seen here. And that's really saying something.

https://phys.org/news/2017-05-newly-house-sized-asteroid-hx4-flies.html

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: 2000 year old Antikythera Mechanism proves FE belief.
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2017, 09:32:52 AM »
I will fill you in on something. The methods used in modern astronomy are still based on pattern prediction, and not really on a geometric model of the solar system. Such geometric models exist, but are inaccurate and not in use. The main methods are the same pattern-based methods the ancients used. Astronomy has never changed.
Debunked with 5 second Google search. A new near Earth asteroid discovered earlier this year. It has an orbit of 2.37 years. You suggest that could only know the pattern of an orbit after observing it. So wouldn't that take 2.37 years? (Reference below)

It was predicted based on the patterns of previous asteroids. By analyzing the speed of previous asteroids across the sky, and how they are aligned with the ecliptic, it is possible to predict the recurrence of a newly found body.

Quote
Pictures of far distant galaxies from Hubble. Pictures of gravitational lensing effects. Discover of exo-planets. Discovery of planets beyond Saturn. The ability to view stellar objects with non visible light such as radio or x-rays. Discovery of the microwave background. Etc. The idea that astronomy has never changed is one of the most ridiculous statements I've seen here. And that's really saying something.

The quote "Astronomy has never changed" was made in reference to the methods of prediction used, you know, the subject of the sentences immediately preceding that sentence and the subject of this thread. Please reading comprehension more. Thank you.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: 2000 year old Antikythera Mechanism proves FE belief.
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2017, 11:08:35 AM »
The quote "Astronomy has never changed" was made in reference to the methods of prediction used, you know, the subject of the sentences immediately preceding that sentence and the subject of this thread. Please reading comprehension more. Thank you.

Kepler and Newton, looking down from heaven, wonder why the world still has to suffer foolish beliefs like yours.  Neptune was not predicted on previous patterns, exoplanets are not detected using previous patterns.  It's like you limit your definition of astronomy to whatever suits you, like you have a blinding bias or something... weird.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: 2000 year old Antikythera Mechanism proves FE belief.
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2017, 11:19:52 AM »
The quote "Astronomy has never changed" was made in reference to the methods of prediction used, you know, the subject of the sentences immediately preceding that sentence and the subject of this thread. Please reading comprehension more. Thank you.

Kepler and Newton, looking down from heaven, wonder why the world still has to suffer foolish beliefs like yours.  Neptune was not predicted on previous patterns, exoplanets are not detected using previous patterns.  It's like you limit your definition of astronomy to whatever suits you, like you have a blinding bias or something... weird.

The discovery of the planet Neptune is addressed in Earth Not a Globe.

Exoplanets are discovered by looking at stars for months at a time and looking for little dips in brightness, which are assumed to be caused by planets, and really has nothing to do with geometric predictions.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Offline mtnman

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Re: 2000 year old Antikythera Mechanism proves FE belief.
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2017, 02:59:47 PM »

The discovery of the planet Neptune is addressed in Earth Not a Globe.

Exoplanets are discovered by looking at stars for months at a time and looking for little dips in brightness, which are assumed to be caused by planets, and really has nothing to do with geometric predictions.

Well, sounds like astronomy has changed then.

Re: 2000 year old Antikythera Mechanism proves FE belief.
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2017, 11:46:50 PM »
Exoplanets are discovered by looking at stars for months at a time and looking for little dips in brightness, which are assumed to be caused by planets, and really has nothing to do with geometric predictions.

not quite true.  you're leaving out two key points: 1) the manner in which the brightness changes over time, and 2) the periodicity of the changes, are direct consequences the geometry of the system.

they don't just measure a dip in brightness once and call it a day.  multiple observatories measure multiple periods.

you're also leaving out an important method: spectroscopy.  measuring changes in wavelength of absorption features on a spectrum tells you something about that object's relative velocity.  those changes also occur in a manner, and with a period, that depends on the geometry of the system.

here are a couple of fun simulators to play with: http://astro.unl.edu/naap/esp/esp.html  they're not based on real data points or anything, but you can get a feel for how the geometry of the system affects the brightness curves.
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Offline mtnman

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Re: 2000 year old Antikythera Mechanism proves FE belief.
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2017, 12:19:46 AM »

you're also leaving out an important method: spectroscopy.  measuring changes in wavelength of absorption features on a spectrum tells you something about that object's relative velocity.  those changes also occur in a manner, and with a period, that depends on the geometry of the system.


Good points garygreen. I just listed a few advancements off the top of my head. And he cherry picks one thing to try and justify his absurd position. Typical.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: 2000 year old Antikythera Mechanism proves FE belief.
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2017, 02:24:03 AM »
Exoplanets are discovered by looking at stars for months at a time and looking for little dips in brightness, which are assumed to be caused by planets, and really has nothing to do with geometric predictions.

not quite true.  you're leaving out two key points: 1) the manner in which the brightness changes over time, and 2) the periodicity of the changes, are direct consequences the geometry of the system.

they don't just measure a dip in brightness once and call it a day.  multiple observatories measure multiple periods.

you're also leaving out an important method: spectroscopy.  measuring changes in wavelength of absorption features on a spectrum tells you something about that object's relative velocity.  those changes also occur in a manner, and with a period, that depends on the geometry of the system.

here are a couple of fun simulators to play with: http://astro.unl.edu/naap/esp/esp.html  they're not based on real data points or anything, but you can get a feel for how the geometry of the system affects the brightness curves.

There are a number stars that dim in inexplicable ways, and some scientists are assuming that there are partial alien dyson spheres surrounding those  stars, and this is why it dims in magnitudes not explainable with planets. ::)
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Re: 2000 year old Antikythera Mechanism proves FE belief.
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2017, 04:43:31 AM »
There are a number stars that dim in inexplicable ways, and some scientists are assuming that there are partial alien dyson spheres surrounding those  stars, and this is why it dims in magnitudes not explainable with planets. ::)

again, not quite.  it's true that there is one star whose extreme variability is not understood at all, but no astronomer is "assuming" alien mega-structures.  on the contrary, they don't appear in the literature at all*.  the most popular hypotheses are dust and comets: https://phys.org/news/2017-10-mysterious-dimming-tabby-star.html

it's also true that there are other types of variable stars unrelated to transits.  binary stars that are oriented the right way will eclipse one another, and the total brightness we observe will vary over the period of the orbit.  and some stars are intrinsically variable.  each case can be identified by the way brightness varies over time, and in the case of transits and eclipsing binaries, the variations are a consequence of the geometry of the system.

* a few of the papers actually do mention them in passing, but not as serious hypotheses; one even says directly in the abstract: "there is no need to invoke alien mega-structures for an explanation of these light-curves."
« Last Edit: October 07, 2017, 05:11:35 AM by garygreen »
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: 2000 year old Antikythera Mechanism proves FE belief.
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2017, 05:25:40 AM »
There are a number stars that dim in inexplicable ways, and some scientists are assuming that there are partial alien dyson spheres surrounding those  stars, and this is why it dims in magnitudes not explainable with planets. ::)

again, not quite.  it's true that there is one star whose extreme variability is not understood at all, but no astronomer is "assuming" alien mega-structures.  on the contrary, they don't appear in the literature at all.  the most popular hypotheses are dust and comets: https://phys.org/news/2017-10-mysterious-dimming-tabby-star.html

it's also true that there are other types of variable stars unrelated to transits.  binary stars that are oriented the right way will eclipse one another, and the total brightness we observe will vary over the period of the orbit.  and some stars are intrinsically variable.  each case can be identified by the way brightness varies over time, and in the case of transits and eclipsing binaries, the variations are a consequence of the geometry of the system.

Your phys.org article admits that the explanation is insufficient.

    "While study authors have a good idea why Tabby's Star dims on a long-term basis, they did not address the shorter-term dimming events that happened in three-day spurts in 2017. They also did not confront the mystery of the major 20-percent dips in brightness that Kepler observed while studying the Cygnus field of its primary mission."

NewScientist.com is asserting that that comets can't explain it, and it may be aliens. The article cites astronomer Jason Wright as a proponent of the alien theory.

There are additional stars like this. It isn't the only one. Another one was found last month. In addition there are others with odd dimming patters which are given extraordinary explanations.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: 2000 year old Antikythera Mechanism proves FE belief.
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2017, 07:40:56 AM »
Who cares if one guy submitted a paper about aliens?  Do you know the fate of the paper?  Does it have any relevance to your assertion that astronomy is merely pattern recognition?

The answers are likely: no one except you; no and none.

Re: 2000 year old Antikythera Mechanism proves FE belief.
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2017, 02:50:40 PM »
Your phys.org article admits that the explanation is insufficient.

indeed, none of the explanations are immediately satisfying.  they're just hypotheses.  any astronomer would tell you that we simply don't know why its variability is irregular and extreme.

you make it sound as if astronomers found an irregular star, asserted that it must be caused by aliens, then called it a day.  on the contrary, astronomers are doing what scientists do: proposing hypotheses and systematically testing them.

NewScientist.com is asserting that that comets can't explain it, and it may be aliens. The article cites astronomer Jason Wright as a proponent of the alien theory.

There are additional stars like this. It isn't the only one. Another one was found last month. In addition there are others with odd dimming patters which are given extraordinary explanations.

both of your articles make it clear that the most popular hypothesis is currently "dust," and alien mega-structures are a very unpopular hypothesis.  no one assumes that it's caused by dyson spheres.  the literature barely mentions them.

also rama is correct.  finding one two weird variable stars doesn't have much leverage over the ~150,000 variable stars that are well-behaved and characterized by their geometries. 
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Offline mtnman

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Re: 2000 year old Antikythera Mechanism proves FE belief.
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2017, 06:48:48 PM »
Really? When I saw the Dyson sphere reference (from Star Trek:TNG) I thought the post was a joke.

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Offline xenotolerance

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Re: 2000 year old Antikythera Mechanism proves FE belief.
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2017, 11:53:15 PM »
From one of Jason Wright's papers:
Quote
Invoking alien engineering to explain an anomalous astronomical phenomenon can be a perilous approach to science because it can lead to an "aliens of the gaps" fallacy (as discussed in Section 2.3 of Wright et al. 2014b) and unfalsifiable hypotheses. The conservative approach is therefore to initially ascribe all anomalies to natural sources, and only entertain the ETI hypothesis in cases where even the most contrived natural explanations fail to adequately explain the data. Nonetheless, invoking the ETI hypothesis can be a perfectly reasonable way to enrich the search space of communication SETI efforts with extraordinary targets, even while natural explanations are pursued.
So when Tom refers to the linked articles when he writes,
Quote from: Tom Bishop
There are a number stars that dim in inexplicable ways, and some scientists are assuming that there are partial alien dyson spheres surrounding those  stars, and this is why it dims in magnitudes not explainable with planets. ::)
he obviously did not do his due diligence and has arrived at an unsupported conclusion.

D-, try harder next derailment

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: 2000 year old Antikythera Mechanism proves FE belief.
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2017, 03:22:33 PM »
There are a number stars that dim in inexplicable ways, and some scientists are assuming that there are partial alien dyson spheres surrounding those  stars, and this is why it dims in magnitudes not explainable with planets. ::)

There are no stars that dim in "inexplicable" ways - we can explicate several mechanisms by which this happens.  As far as I'm aware, there are no inexplicably dimming stars.

But the search for exoplanets uses TWO completely different mechanisms.

1) When the spectrum of a star shifts very slightly in frequency in a very regular cyclic pattern over a long period of time (months, years) then this must be due to the "doppler effect" which means that the star is moving very slightly either towards or away from us then back again.  We can tell that the star is moving in a small circular motion.  This is explained by some other object in the vicinity that's orbiting the star at a period given by the wobble of the star.   By measuring the period of the star's wobble, we know the "year length" for this other body - and by measuring the amount of the wobble, we can know the force of gravity between star and other body.  Taken together, we can know the mass of this second body.  Knowing that mass, we can tell whether this invisible companion is another (dim) star, or a planet or something bizarre like a black hole, or a neutron star.   In general the star's wobble may be more complicated than just a simple circular motion - we can use the mathematics of Fourier to decompose that motion into the sum of sinewaves - and each component of the motion indicates a separate orbiting body.  Hence we can calculate the number, distances, orbital periods and masses of every planet orbiting the star.  Notice that we're NOT using the "dimming" of the star in this case.

2) Sometimes - maybe 5% of the time - the plane in which the planets of some distant star are orbiting happens fortuitiously to bring it's planets between the star and us.  So the planets are partially eclipsing the parent star.   In this case, we do indeed see a very slight dimming in the star's brightness that happens once every time the planet orbits the star.  When we look carefully at the AMOUNT of dimming, we can see that as the planet GRADUALLY occludes the star, the dimming gets greater in a pattern that precisely matches two overlapping circles - this is unlike the dimming patterns of things like rotating stars or stars that are varying in brightness as they run out of Hydrogen fuel or stars that are being occluded by clouds of dust and gas.   The rate of change of brightness is EXACTLY characteristic of one small circle overlapping a much larger one.   This can really only be a planet orbiting the star.  Furthermore, in some cases, we can actually see small changes to the spectrum of the star that are explained by the atmosphere of the planet.  Our spectroscopy instruments are not yet sensitive enough to do analysis of the planet's atmospheres - but that is something that'll definitely be examined in the near future.   But at the very least, this approach let's us know the diameter of each planet - and the speed at which it's travelling relative to the star.

So - combining these two techniques - we can know the diameter AND the mass of those 5% of exo-planets that eclipse their star.  This allows use to calculate their densities - so we can tell whether they are rocky planets or gaseous in nature.

There is yet more richness in the datasets.

When we can analyse the gasses in the atmospheres of these planets - we can look for tell-tale gasses that indicate life - perhaps even things that could only be industrial byproducts that would indicate alien civilizations.  Expect to see these kinds of results coming along in the next decade.

But your naive idea that "the star dims a bit" is to completely misunderstand the subtlety and beauty of the studies that are being done here.

If it were ONLY random dimming - we wouldn't see those perfect cyclical patterns in the doppler shift that match the dimming as the planet eclipses the primary.   We wouldn't see the circle-on-circle profile of the brightness-versus-time curve that perfectly demonstrate a circular planet orbiting a circular star.

The techniques we use to do this are the exact same techniques that were used to predict the moons of planets in our own solar system - and now that we've sent spacecraft out there to take pictures of them - we have concrete verification (if that were needed) that these techniques really do work.

But of course, in Flat-land, these are just little glowing balls up in the sky doing random and inexplicable things.

Yours is a very sad world.  You know nothing, you understand nothing, you can explain nothing - and what few pathetic ideas you do have fall apart like wet tissue paper under even the most superficial examination.

For those who open their eyes - see the elegant physics we have to describe our universe - we can discover and understand so much that is beautiful and amazing.
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

Offline mtnman

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Re: 2000 year old Antikythera Mechanism proves FE belief.
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2017, 05:01:17 PM »
Sounds like science to me. Nice post 3D.