Re: Pinhole cameras, Sunsets and FET perspective.
« Reply #60 on: September 21, 2017, 01:54:41 AM »
Tom, in order for the Sun to "see" something on the horizon, the horizon would have to rise to its level. This doesn't happen in the real world, it is an illusion created by your brain.

It also happens to video cameras. Do video cameras have brains?

Glad you brought that up. I was incomplete in my comment. The eye's lens plays a big role in perspective. It makes things that are further away appear smaller.
https://www.quora.com/What-causes-perspective-in-nature
The brain's role is easy to suss out, as well. That giant looking moon or Sun on the horizon is purely a function of your brain "thinking" things on the horizon are closer than things overhead.

Cameras which do not have lenses also experience perspective. How do you explain that?
A flaw in the way the world is viewed by our eye, and is thus transferred to any optical type equipment we make since we know no other way to see the world. We hardly ever see the world the way the world actually is.

Offline StinkyOne

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Re: Pinhole cameras, Sunsets and FET perspective.
« Reply #61 on: September 21, 2017, 02:57:50 AM »
I've brought the train track thing up several times before and Tom ignores it. I doubt he will ever admit he is wrong on perspective. If he does, he would be forced to concede that the Earth is round because there is no other way for him to explain the sunset. It is frustrating to read a grown man trying to claim actual physical changes caused by perspective and invent things like "squished photons", but he really doesn't have any option other than to defend it as best he can.
I saw a video where a pilot was flying above the sun.
-Terry50

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Pinhole cameras, Sunsets and FET perspective.
« Reply #62 on: September 21, 2017, 03:13:49 AM »
Tom, in order for the Sun to "see" something on the horizon, the horizon would have to rise to its level. This doesn't happen in the real world, it is an illusion created by your brain.

It also happens to video cameras. Do video cameras have brains?


Glad you brought that up. I was incomplete in my comment. The eye's lens plays a big role in perspective. It makes things that are further away appear smaller.
https://www.quora.com/What-causes-perspective-in-nature
The brain's role is easy to suss out, as well. That giant looking moon or Sun on the horizon is purely a function of your brain "thinking" things on the horizon are closer than things overhead.

What?!?  Who's side are you on?

Cameras, eyes, pinhole cameras all work the same way!  This is why I can use the pinhole camera argument to try to simplify the explanation.

The only role the brain has in this is that when we see an image with perspective in it, our brains are able to understand that this is due to distance rather than some object actually becoming smaller.
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Pinhole cameras, Sunsets and FET perspective.
« Reply #63 on: September 21, 2017, 03:17:38 AM »
At sunset the light rays travel from the horizon to the observer. The diagram theory you are referencing is not considered because it is an invalid model which does not account for several elements of perspective that work to orient the position of bodies around you.

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1) At sunset where I am standing - which is noon in some other place on the Earth - where (physically) is the actual orb of the sun with respect to the Earth itself?

Beneath the sun an observer sees that the sun is above overhead and the light rays are traveling downwards. At sunset the observer sees that the sun is at the horizon; placed there by perspective. The light rays are coming in at 90 degrees from zenith. Perspective has oriented the sun to be in that location.
No - you're not answering what I asked.  Where ACTUALLY is the sun?  The physical location.  Not "where does it appear to be?"   Where is it actually positioned?

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2) At that moment in time, what path do the photons take to get from that physical location into my eyeball?

At sunset the photons travel from the horizon to your eye, which is a horizontal path. The cause is a result of how perspective orients itself around you.
That would be true if the sun literally was at the horizon - but we know it isn't because it's not setting fire to the trees.  I agree that it APPEARS to be at the horizon.   But we're not saying that it's literally there because it can't be in two places at once.   It's evidently 3,000 miles above some distant place where it's noontime.

If it can't be in two places at once - then it's PHYSICALLY in one place - but it APPEARS to be in different places for different observers...surely that's what you mean here - right?

« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 03:21:08 AM by 3DGeek »
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Pinhole cameras, Sunsets and FET perspective.
« Reply #64 on: September 21, 2017, 12:43:21 PM »
SUMMARY SO FAR:

1) In order for there to be FE sunsets, there has to be some "law" of perspective that is different from the one that applies in the RE universe.   The RE version of how perspective works is simply that light travels in straight lines - and all practical focussing devices are essentially like pinhole cameras.   But in FE, that would prevent the sun from setting.

2) We know (and even Tom agrees) that light travels in straight lines.

3) Tom cannot accept my "pinhole camera" diagram because that would prove that sunsets cannot happen on the Flat Earth...and he cannot allow that to happen.

4) However, that diagram depends on only two things: Both of which we know from FE theory:  (A) That the sun is "really" 3000 miles up and 6000 miles away at sunset - so around 30 degrees above the horizon.   (B) That light travels in straight lines.   Then only this "altered perspective" thing can save the FE.

5) But if we INSIST on knowing how the actual photons travel from the sun to my eye at sunset, then there is a clear problem.  If the light does indeed travel in a straight line, then we can clearly demonstrate that there are no sunsets on the FE.  The fact that clouds are lit from the underside at sunset backs this up and shows that this cannot be some freaky artifact of the human visual system (and cameras!).

Tom understands that he's screwed.   Trust me...he knows this.   So he's now got to deny one of the two fundamental premises that we've set forth:

EITHER:

* The sun is NOT 3,000 miles above the Earth

...OR...

* Light does NOT travel in straight lines.

Since he's on record as saying that he believes light travels in straight lines...all he can now do is to deny the altitude of the sun.

However, we all know the FE sun altitude.

So what's left for him?   Basically to say that perspective PHYSICALLY moves the sun onto the horizon?!?   This seems to kinda be what he's saying.   But, no - that can't be the case - because the sun can't be in two places at once.   We know for sure that it's vertically overhead 6000 miles away at noon in some other time-zone...so how can it also be PHYSICALLY on the horizon where the sunset is happening?   Doesn't make sense.   Also, if the sun was PHYSICALLY on the horizon, then it would set fire to the trees and there would be enormous 30 mile-wide East/West scorch marks across the earth!

So Tom is screwed folks.

He is now repeatedly evading the simple question of where the sun PHYSICALLY is located.

This is a VERY simple question - and he's gone at least four posts trying to avoid directly answering it...which must be because he knows he CANNOT say the words: "The sun is physically 3000 miles up at sunset" without triggering a bulletproof rebuttal of the Flat Earth and everything he stands for.

This is the point where the FE'ers are defeated because their leader cannot answer a simple, straight forward question for fear that he'll screw the pooch.

IN MY OPINION:  If I were an FE'er...I'd be throwing Tom under the bus - saying: "Tom is wrong...the "electromagnetic accelerator" hypothesis is correct...and light doesn't travel in straight lines."

However, Tom is smart enough to understand that we RE'ers are armed to the teeth with arguments that destroy "electromagnetic accelerator" - it's TOTAL hogwash.   That's (presumably) why he dropped it (along with "The Bishop experiment", "The Bishop equation" and "The Bishop constant") in favor of "alternative perspective" ideas.

So - where now FE'ers?   I think you've just met your Waterloo.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 12:47:30 PM by 3DGeek »
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

Offline mtnman

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Re: Pinhole cameras, Sunsets and FET perspective.
« Reply #65 on: September 21, 2017, 03:59:56 PM »
I've brought the train track thing up several times before and Tom ignores it. I doubt he will ever admit he is wrong on perspective. If he does, he would be forced to concede that the Earth is round because there is no other way for him to explain the sunset. It is frustrating to read a grown man trying to claim actual physical changes caused by perspective and invent things like "squished photons", but he really doesn't have any option other than to defend it as best he can.

Every time I read his use of perspective to explain everything I thing of this scene.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Pinhole cameras, Sunsets and FET perspective.
« Reply #66 on: September 21, 2017, 05:16:38 PM »
At sunset the light rays travel from the horizon to the observer. The diagram theory you are referencing is not considered because it is an invalid model which does not account for several elements of perspective that work to orient the position of bodies around you.

Quote
1) At sunset where I am standing - which is noon in some other place on the Earth - where (physically) is the actual orb of the sun with respect to the Earth itself?

Beneath the sun an observer sees that the sun is above overhead and the light rays are traveling downwards. At sunset the observer sees that the sun is at the horizon; placed there by perspective. The light rays are coming in at 90 degrees from zenith. Perspective has oriented the sun to be in that location.
No - you're not answering what I asked.  Where ACTUALLY is the sun?  The physical location.  Not "where does it appear to be?"   Where is it actually positioned?

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Quote
2) At that moment in time, what path do the photons take to get from that physical location into my eyeball?

At sunset the photons travel from the horizon to your eye, which is a horizontal path. The cause is a result of how perspective orients itself around you.
That would be true if the sun literally was at the horizon - but we know it isn't because it's not setting fire to the trees.  I agree that it APPEARS to be at the horizon.   But we're not saying that it's literally there because it can't be in two places at once.   It's evidently 3,000 miles above some distant place where it's noontime.

If it can't be in two places at once - then it's PHYSICALLY in one place - but it APPEARS to be in different places for different observers...surely that's what you mean here - right?

The idea that perspective is changing the orientation of bodies around you is not synonymous with the change of position of the bodies.

Google definitions:

orientation - the determination of the relative position of something or someone
position - a place where someone or something is located or has been put

Perspective changes orientation; which is your determination of relative position, not the position of a body. I've told you several times that it the orientation that is changed.  Could you please look up simple definitions if you come across a word that is beyond you?

Probably a breach of etiquette to re quote from much earlier in the thread, but I have to comment on this.

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Two parallel perspective lines traveling into the distance will appear to be angled towards each other and approach each other if you were to stand in-between them. You are saying that these perspective lines will approach each other for infinity and never meet, when this defies logic. How can two lines angled at each other never meet?

I see "perspective" being used here as a catch-all magic bullet of explanations. Perspective is how you see something, not how it exists.

Read the quote above and picture yourself standing between two long straight railroad tracks. It is really the most simple example possible. Do you see two lines angling towards each other? Yes. Do you see two angles converging? Yes. If the track is long enough and empty, do they appear to converge at a far off point? Yes. That is your perspective. Do they actually ever meet? Of course not. That would make it rather hard on the trains that use them.

Now walk a few dozen feet perpendicular to the tracks, turn and look back at them. Are they still angled towards each other? No. Did the tracks change or move? No, your perspective changed, reality did not.

So since perspective doesn't define the interactions of these things, there are certainly not a bunching of photons around a "vanishing point."

I have never claimed that the position of the rail road tracks touch. It is the orientation that touches - your determination of relative position. I have said that it is the orientation numerous times now. Learn to definition.

Re: Pinhole cameras, Sunsets and FET perspective.
« Reply #67 on: September 21, 2017, 05:16:54 PM »
Probably a breach of etiquette to re quote from much earlier in the thread, but I have to comment on this.

Quote
Two parallel perspective lines traveling into the distance will appear to be angled towards each other and approach each other if you were to stand in-between them. You are saying that these perspective lines will approach each other for infinity and never meet, when this defies logic. How can two lines angled at each other never meet?

I see "perspective" being used here as a catch-all magic bullet of explanations. Perspective is how you see something, not how it exists.

Read the quote above and picture yourself standing between two long straight railroad tracks. It is really the most simple example possible. Do you see two lines angling towards each other? Yes. Do you see two angles converging? Yes. If the track is long enough and empty, do they appear to converge at a far off point? Yes. That is your perspective. Do they actually ever meet? Of course not. That would make it rather hard on the trains that use them.

Now walk a few dozen feet perpendicular to the tracks, turn and look back at them. Are they still angled towards each other? No. Did the tracks change or move? No, your perspective changed, reality did not.

So since perspective doesn't define the interactions of these things, there are certainly not a bunching of photons around a "vanishing point."

I have never claimed that the position of the rail road tracks touch. It is the orientation that touches - your determination of relative position. I have said that it is the orientation that is changed many times now. Learn to definition.
Correct, but they do two things. They get closer, and they get smaller. Alright, so the sun gets closer to the ground. Fine, we see that happen. But the sun doesn't shrink. You've explained this as some weird 'lensing effect' to my knowledge. Alright, then explain how you know the sun is getting further away. How do you know the laws of perspective change at long distances? Surely you must have some form of proof of this. Because as is your argument basically boils down to "It works this way because I say it does" which isn't very convincing. For that matter...no, let's start with just this one. No reason to give you something to tangent off on. One question, one question only.

How do you know perspective functions as you claim it must, at long distances?

Experimental and repeatable proofs preferred. Neither the Sun nor the Moon can be subjects of the experiment. You can't use the situation in question to prove the situation is correct.

Offline Ga_x2

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Re: Pinhole cameras, Sunsets and FET perspective.
« Reply #68 on: September 21, 2017, 05:51:58 PM »
Perspective changes orientation; which is your determination of relative position, not the position of a body. I've told you several times that it the orientation that is changed.
this means that, at sunset, the apparent position of the sun is at the horizon, while the actual  position is 3000 miles above it. Correct?

Offline mtnman

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Re: Pinhole cameras, Sunsets and FET perspective.
« Reply #69 on: September 21, 2017, 06:15:39 PM »

I have never claimed that the position of the rail road tracks touch. It is the orientation that touches - your determination of relative position. I have said that it is the orientation numerous times now. Learn to definition.
Ok Tom, I am going to quote you again.
Quote
You are saying that these perspective lines will approach each other for infinity and never meet, when this defies logic. How can two lines angled at each other never meet?

If their approaching and never meeting defies logic, then you are saying logic means they do meet.

Quote
It's the orientation that touches
What does that even mean?

The point is that perspective, or orientation if you prefer, means how you see things. It doesn't mean that perspective is real. If I go outside on a bright sunny day and look up, I might put my hand up to shield my eyes from the sun. When I do that, my hand looks bigger than the sun. But I know it isn't, that's just my perspective.

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Pinhole cameras, Sunsets and FET perspective.
« Reply #70 on: September 22, 2017, 07:42:57 PM »
The idea that perspective is changing the orientation of bodies around you is not synonymous with the change of position of the bodies.

Google definitions:

orientation - the determination of the relative position of something or someone
position - a place where someone or something is located or has been put

Perspective changes orientation; which is your determination of relative position, not the position of a body. I've told you several times that it the orientation that is changed.  Could you please look up simple definitions if you come across a word that is beyond you?
Errr...I think you're misreading those definitions.  HOWEVER, I do not wish to argue over the definitions of common English words.  I'm happy to adopt whatever meanings you wish to apply to whatever words in the context that you use them.

So you're using the word "orientation" to mean "subjective location" (where our eyes tell us something is) and "position" to mean "physical location" (where a very long tape measure would reveal it to be).

Alright - if you choose those definitions then fine:

TOM: Please tell me the "POSITION" (and **not** the "ORIENTATION") of the Sun when it's sunset here and noon at some distant place on the Earth.


(That's where I believe the sun is drawn in my diagram - but I'm happy to place it somewhere else if I'm incorrect).

* If you disagree about where I placed the sun, then please tell me where it should be.   I want the actual place where the sun really is - where it would be if I measured the position with a really long tape measure.   I don't need exact numbers - you can be an entire order of magnitude wrong - and I'll be OK with that.

* If you disagree about the photons/light-ray from it traveling in a straight line as I've drawn it, then please tell me where the light actually does travel.

I don't think these are difficult questions.
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?