Offline StinkyOne

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Re: Pinhole cameras, Sunsets and FET perspective.
« Reply #40 on: September 20, 2017, 04:51:57 PM »
If your sun isn't on the horizon in that image, then it must not be an accurate representation of reality. Theoretical maths and side view diagrams don't outweigh reality.
Have you considered the math and diagrams don't work because reality isn't flat? If the Earth was a globe none of these problems would exist. Otherwise we're back to perspective somehow actually alters reality, or light doesn't travel in straight lines.

The sun is on the horizon; therefore that is what all perspective diagrams must depict. None of your perspective diagrams consider that the lands ascend upwards to meet the sun, as an example. Therefore they are insufficient as a representation of perspective.

The question was asked, and I apologize if you have answered this elsewhere, in your concept of perspective, does the sun actually move closer to the Earth? This may be a dumb misunderstanding on my part, but I just want to be clear where you stand.
I saw a video where a pilot was flying above the sun.
-Terry50

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Pinhole cameras, Sunsets and FET perspective.
« Reply #41 on: September 20, 2017, 04:55:22 PM »
The question was asked, and I apologize if you have answered this elsewhere, in your concept of perspective, does the sun actually move closer to the Earth? This may be a dumb misunderstanding on my part, but I just want to be clear where you stand.

Perspective is an orientation of bodies seen around the observer. When things move that orientation is modified. The sun does not move closer to the earth, but when it moves it follows tracks of perspective lines which are on an orientation to intersect with the earth.

Re: Pinhole cameras, Sunsets and FET perspective.
« Reply #42 on: September 20, 2017, 04:56:28 PM »
If your sun isn't on the horizon in that image, then it must not be an accurate representation of reality. Theoretical maths and side view diagrams don't outweigh reality.
Have you considered the math and diagrams don't work because reality isn't flat? If the Earth was a globe none of these problems would exist. Otherwise we're back to perspective somehow actually alters reality, or light doesn't travel in straight lines.

Your perspective diagrams are entirely insufficient. None of your perspective diagrams consider that the lands ascend upwards to meet the sun, as an example. Therefore they are insufficient as a representation of perspective.
But the land doesn't A) Actually rise up to the level of your eye and B) only rises to the level of your eye in perspective. So the sun is still 20ish degrees above the level of your eye. Just like is shown in those images. How about this. Draw us a side view of what you believe is happening. Show the actual position of the sun, the apparent position of the sun, and the same for the ground/horizon. Everything we're showing is the actual location of the sun and horizon. How can perspective close a gap of 20 degrees?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Pinhole cameras, Sunsets and FET perspective.
« Reply #43 on: September 20, 2017, 05:07:09 PM »
But the land doesn't A) Actually rise up to the level of your eye and B) only rises to the level of your eye in perspective. So the sun is still 20ish degrees above the level of your eye. Just like is shown in those images. How about this. Draw us a side view of what you believe is happening. Show the actual position of the sun, the apparent position of the sun, and the same for the ground/horizon. Everything we're showing is the actual location of the sun and horizon. How can perspective close a gap of 20 degrees?

The sun follows the orientation of the perspective lines, which places bodies at the vanishing point to be on the eye level horizon, 90 degrees from zenith.

Your imagined "gap" of 20 degrees is based on an incorrect depiction of perspective which is missing several elements. The depictions you are using do not consider that the lands are tilted upwards and ascend in perspective until they get to eye level, as an example. 90 degrees of space which fills up the observer's vision is ignored, showing that the model is fallacious.

Re: Pinhole cameras, Sunsets and FET perspective.
« Reply #44 on: September 20, 2017, 05:07:24 PM »
But the land doesn't A) Actually rise up to the level of your eye and B) only rises to the level of your eye in perspective. So the sun is still 20ish degrees above the level of your eye. Just like is shown in those images. How about this. Draw us a side view of what you believe is happening. Show the actual position of the sun, the apparent position of the sun, and the same for the ground/horizon. Everything we're showing is the actual location of the sun and horizon. How can perspective close a gap of 20 degrees?

The sun follows the orientation of the perspective lines, which places bodies at the vanishing point to be on the eye level horizon, 90 degrees from zenith.

Your imagined "gap" of 20 degrees is based on an incorrect depiction of perspective which is missing several elements. The depictions you are using do not consider that the lands are tilted upwards and ascend in perspective until they get to eye level, as an example. 90 degrees of space which fills up the user's vision is ignored, showing that the model is fallacious.
Again, these images are not 'perspective' images, they are simple triangle images showing the angles involved based on distances. YOU need to show how your magical perspective can have both these figures correct, and still have a sun setting. It's not an imagined gap, it's a real gap based on the distances involved. This is of course completely ignoring the whole non-shrinking sun thing for now.

The lands also will not tilt upwards that high. Something below the plane of your eye, cannot rise above the plane of your eye due to perspective, and vise versa.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Pinhole cameras, Sunsets and FET perspective.
« Reply #45 on: September 20, 2017, 05:09:08 PM »
Again, these images are not 'perspective' images

Perspective is a fundamental cause for how objects are oriented around an observer. It should be accounted for.

Re: Pinhole cameras, Sunsets and FET perspective.
« Reply #46 on: September 20, 2017, 05:17:36 PM »
Again, these images are not 'perspective' images

Perspective is a fundamental cause for how objects are oriented around an observer. It should be accounted for.
Not until you can explain how it can account for a sun being 20 degrees above the horizontal can appear at the horizon. This is simple math. If the sun is 3000 miles up, and 6000 miles away, it's at a 20 degree angle above the horizontal. This means, if light travels in straight lines, that light is coming in at 20 degrees above the horizontal. Yet the sun also appears to be at the horizon and it's light is coming in at a near 0 degree angle. Explain how 'perspective' accomplishes that.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Pinhole cameras, Sunsets and FET perspective.
« Reply #47 on: September 20, 2017, 05:33:48 PM »
Again, these images are not 'perspective' images

Perspective is a fundamental cause for how objects are oriented around an observer. It should be accounted for.
Not until you can explain how it can account for a sun being 20 degrees above the horizontal can appear at the horizon. This is simple math. If the sun is 3000 miles up, and 6000 miles away, it's at a 20 degree angle above the horizontal. This means, if light travels in straight lines, that light is coming in at 20 degrees above the horizontal. Yet the sun also appears to be at the horizon and it's light is coming in at a near 0 degree angle. Explain how 'perspective' accomplishes that.

Its math which does not accurately account for perspective. You have admitted yourself that the diagrams in the math do not account for perspective. Nothing more needs to be said. It is an incorrect model. You are trying to depict where the observer sees the sun; and it is not accounting for the phenomenon of perspective which orients bodies around you.

Your model also says that it is impossible for the lands to reach eye level. However, the lands are not below the horizontal in reality. The lands reach the horizontal, and unless you can depict that then any math you perform on such a scene is invalid.

Different triangles must be used, on a scene in which the concept of a vanishing point actually exists! Your insistence on using this invalid model depiction of where and how bodies should be positioned is unjustified. No one have ever even seen a scene like the one you are proposing -- it is entirely theoretical. Such theories must be accurate in their assumptions and representations. You have admitted that your model is lacking of certain elements and thus it must be thrown out entirely.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2017, 07:05:28 PM by Tom Bishop »

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Pinhole cameras, Sunsets and FET perspective.
« Reply #48 on: September 20, 2017, 05:34:27 PM »
The heart of the problem here is Tom's insistance that "perspective" is somehow a law of physics that transcends the boundaries of space (and quite possibly, time).

In my opinion, I should be able to ask this pair of questions of FE'ers and get a simple, comprehensible answer:

1) At sunset where I am standing - which is noon in some other place on the Earth - where (physically) is the actual orb of the sun with respect to the Earth itself?
2) At that moment in time, what path do the photons take to get from that physical location into my eyeball?

At this stage, I'm not interested in what I see I'm interested only in where the photons physically travel to get from the 30 mile diameter sun and into my eyeball.   If it helps, let's not even use an eyeball - how does light arrive to illuminate a building that's right next to me.

As far as I can tell from Tom's posts prior to this thread, his answers should be something like:

1) The sun is vertically above a point where it is noon.  It is approximately 3,000 miles up - and approximately 6,000 miles away horizontally.

2) Light travels in straight lines - so you may draw a straight line from where the sun it to where your eyeball is.

But rather than put words into his mouth - I'd just like to hear similarly simple, straightforward answers about where the light rays travel.
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Pinhole cameras, Sunsets and FET perspective.
« Reply #49 on: September 20, 2017, 05:48:48 PM »
At sunset the light rays travel from the horizon to the observer. The diagram theory you are referencing is not considered because it is an invalid model which does not account for several elements of perspective that work to orient the position of bodies around you.

Quote
1) At sunset where I am standing - which is noon in some other place on the Earth - where (physically) is the actual orb of the sun with respect to the Earth itself?

Beneath the sun an observer sees that the sun is above overhead and the light rays are traveling downwards. At sunset the observer sees that the sun is at the horizon; placed there by perspective. The light rays are coming in at 90 degrees from zenith. Perspective has oriented the sun to be in that location.

Quote
2) At that moment in time, what path do the photons take to get from that physical location into my eyeball?

At sunset the photons travel from the horizon to your eye, which is a horizontal path. The cause is a result of how perspective orients itself around you.

Re: Pinhole cameras, Sunsets and FET perspective.
« Reply #50 on: September 20, 2017, 05:54:12 PM »
At sunset the light rays travel from the horizon to the observer. The diagram theory you are referencing is not considered because it is an invalid model which does not account for several elements of perspective that work to orient the position of bodies around you.

Quote
1) At sunset where I am standing - which is noon in some other place on the Earth - where (physically) is the actual orb of the sun with respect to the Earth itself?

Beneath the sun an observer sees that the sun is above overhead and the light rays are traveling downwards. At sunset the observer sees that the sun is at the horizon; placed there by perspective. The light rays are coming in at 90 degrees from zenith. Perspective has oriented the sun to be in that location.

Quote
2) At that moment in time, what path do the photons take to get from that physical location into my eyeball?

The photons travel from the horizon to your eye, which is a horizontal path. The cause is a result of how perspective orients itself around you.
1) How? Is the sun physically there? Where is your evidence this will happen the way you describe? (Reminder, the sun and moon don't count)

2) How do the photons get from being 20 degrees above the horizon, to coming from the horizon? You still haven't answered this basic math principle, instead claiming perspective somehow makes the sun do things that aren't mathematically possible. How does perspective change the direction light come from, and how does it come in at that angle for literally everything?

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Pinhole cameras, Sunsets and FET perspective.
« Reply #51 on: September 20, 2017, 06:12:08 PM »
At sunset the light rays travel from the horizon to the observer.
Nobody denies that - we all see it happen with our own eyes every day.

I *REALLY* do want to understand what you're trying to convey - and it's not happening.

OK - let's forget all of my diagrams - let's just use words and start with the simplest question of all.  The scenario is thus:

STEP 1: A photon (a small packet of light) undeniably leaves the Sun.   Which FET says is around 3,000 miles above the ground...someplace...I don't even care where that is for now.

STEP 2: It travels rapidly to some other part of the world where there is currently a sunset happening...undeniably.

STEP 3: Finally, undeniably the photon smacks into either a building, a tree or rock or...whatever.

It seems that none of these three things can be denied...right?   If you DO wish to deny one of them, please tell us  which one is incorrect and we can discuss that point until I understand what you're trying to explain to me.

So all I'm asking is for someone to tell me the route the photon took from point A (the Sun) to point B (it's ultimate destination).

That's it!

If the photon travels in a straight line between point A and point B - that's good, we agree.   But if perspective is bending the path of the photon - bouncing the light off of the stratosphere, folding the light beam - tying the light into pretzels - that's fine - just tell me the path the photon traveled along to get from the sun to the point where it lights something up.  If you truly don't know - then that's OK too - just tell us.

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The diagram theory you are referencing is not considered because it is an invalid model which does not account for several elements of perspective that work to orient the position of bodies around you.

I dispute that - but perhaps there is some confusion of language or something.  Let's set that aside and pretend for now that I agree with you.   But at least answer the question above so we know we're talking about the same things here.

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The phenomenon of perspective squishes everything to the horizon; and trying to represent it on a small scene a few inches across is invalid without artificially doing things like ascending the lands and creating a vanishing point in order to give a proper depiction of perspective.
Again, I dispute that - but again, let us assume for now that you're right so you can cleanly and clearly answer the question above without further distractions.
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Pinhole cameras, Sunsets and FET perspective.
« Reply #52 on: September 20, 2017, 07:10:48 PM »
At sunset the light rays travel from the horizon to the observer. The diagram theory you are referencing is not considered because it is an invalid model which does not account for several elements of perspective that work to orient the position of bodies around you.

Quote
1) At sunset where I am standing - which is noon in some other place on the Earth - where (physically) is the actual orb of the sun with respect to the Earth itself?

Beneath the sun an observer sees that the sun is above overhead and the light rays are traveling downwards. At sunset the observer sees that the sun is at the horizon; placed there by perspective. The light rays are coming in at 90 degrees from zenith. Perspective has oriented the sun to be in that location.

Quote
2) At that moment in time, what path do the photons take to get from that physical location into my eyeball?

The photons travel from the horizon to your eye, which is a horizontal path. The cause is a result of how perspective orients itself around you.
1) How? Is the sun physically there? Where is your evidence this will happen the way you describe? (Reminder, the sun and moon don't count)

2) How do the photons get from being 20 degrees above the horizon, to coming from the horizon? You still haven't answered this basic math principle, instead claiming perspective somehow makes the sun do things that aren't mathematically possible. How does perspective change the direction light come from, and how does it come in at that angle for literally everything?

Your "basic math principal" is based on a model which does not accurately account for perspective and does not actually happen except in your erroneous interpretation of the situation.

Perspective works two ways. If you see the sun at the horizon, the sun also sees you at the horizon, and that is where the rays of light will follow -- horizontally to the horizon. Perspective never "changes the direction" of the light. The observer was always at the horizon for the sun and so that is where the light rays will travel.

Re: Pinhole cameras, Sunsets and FET perspective.
« Reply #53 on: September 20, 2017, 07:27:21 PM »
At sunset the light rays travel from the horizon to the observer. The diagram theory you are referencing is not considered because it is an invalid model which does not account for several elements of perspective that work to orient the position of bodies around you.

Quote
1) At sunset where I am standing - which is noon in some other place on the Earth - where (physically) is the actual orb of the sun with respect to the Earth itself?

Beneath the sun an observer sees that the sun is above overhead and the light rays are traveling downwards. At sunset the observer sees that the sun is at the horizon; placed there by perspective. The light rays are coming in at 90 degrees from zenith. Perspective has oriented the sun to be in that location.

Quote
2) At that moment in time, what path do the photons take to get from that physical location into my eyeball?

The photons travel from the horizon to your eye, which is a horizontal path. The cause is a result of how perspective orients itself around you.
1) How? Is the sun physically there? Where is your evidence this will happen the way you describe? (Reminder, the sun and moon don't count)

2) How do the photons get from being 20 degrees above the horizon, to coming from the horizon? You still haven't answered this basic math principle, instead claiming perspective somehow makes the sun do things that aren't mathematically possible. How does perspective change the direction light come from, and how does it come in at that angle for literally everything?

Your "basic math principal" is based on a model which does not accurately account for perspective and does not actually happen except in your erroneous interpretation of the situation.

Perspective works two ways. If you see the sun at the horizon, the sun also sees you at the horizon, and that is where the rays of light will follow -- horizontally to the horizon. Perspective never "changes the direction" of the light. The observer was always at the horizon for the sun and so that is where the light rays will travel.

Here we go 3D. Tom believes perspective is a fundamental law of nature/the world. :/

Offline StinkyOne

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Re: Pinhole cameras, Sunsets and FET perspective.
« Reply #54 on: September 20, 2017, 07:59:46 PM »
I don't think you'll ever be able to get him to agree on this issue. Some folks understand that the type of perspective Tom is talking about here is created in the brain and, from what I can gather, Tom thinks it is an actual physical change in the world. (even though he hasn't come out and said that, it is exactly what he is implying) He is taking ideas like a vanishing point and creating physical constructs around them that can't possibly exist.

Tom, in order for the Sun to "see" something on the horizon, the horizon would have to rise to its level. This doesn't happen in the real world, it is an illusion created by your brain.
I saw a video where a pilot was flying above the sun.
-Terry50

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Pinhole cameras, Sunsets and FET perspective.
« Reply #55 on: September 20, 2017, 08:21:57 PM »
Tom, in order for the Sun to "see" something on the horizon, the horizon would have to rise to its level. This doesn't happen in the real world, it is an illusion created by your brain.

It also happens to video cameras. Do video cameras have brains?

Offline zp0okii

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Re: Pinhole cameras, Sunsets and FET perspective.
« Reply #56 on: September 20, 2017, 08:23:47 PM »
Tom, in order for the Sun to "see" something on the horizon, the horizon would have to rise to its level. This doesn't happen in the real world, it is an illusion created by your brain.

It also happens to video cameras. Do video cameras have brains?

No, but they do have resolutions.

I am so tired of seeing FET push the law of perspectives when it has been so thoroughly (and easily) debunked. Will post this link for the millionth time leading to the OG thread debunking this "law".

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=14325.0

And in video form:

« Last Edit: September 20, 2017, 08:31:28 PM by zp0okii »

Offline StinkyOne

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Re: Pinhole cameras, Sunsets and FET perspective.
« Reply #57 on: September 20, 2017, 08:34:54 PM »
Tom, in order for the Sun to "see" something on the horizon, the horizon would have to rise to its level. This doesn't happen in the real world, it is an illusion created by your brain.

It also happens to video cameras. Do video cameras have brains?

Glad you brought that up. I was incomplete in my comment. The eye's lens plays a big role in perspective. It makes things that are further away appear smaller.
https://www.quora.com/What-causes-perspective-in-nature
The brain's role is easy to suss out, as well. That giant looking moon or Sun on the horizon is purely a function of your brain "thinking" things on the horizon are closer than things overhead.
I saw a video where a pilot was flying above the sun.
-Terry50

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Pinhole cameras, Sunsets and FET perspective.
« Reply #58 on: September 20, 2017, 08:50:08 PM »
Tom, in order for the Sun to "see" something on the horizon, the horizon would have to rise to its level. This doesn't happen in the real world, it is an illusion created by your brain.

It also happens to video cameras. Do video cameras have brains?

Glad you brought that up. I was incomplete in my comment. The eye's lens plays a big role in perspective. It makes things that are further away appear smaller.
https://www.quora.com/What-causes-perspective-in-nature
The brain's role is easy to suss out, as well. That giant looking moon or Sun on the horizon is purely a function of your brain "thinking" things on the horizon are closer than things overhead.

Cameras which do not have lenses also experience perspective. How do you explain that?

Offline mtnman

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Re: Pinhole cameras, Sunsets and FET perspective.
« Reply #59 on: September 20, 2017, 09:32:09 PM »
What lines are you talking about? Railroad tracks? They don't meet. The ground and the level of your eyes? They don't actually meet either on level ground. So what lines are you talking about? Because the meeting of things in both of those cases is an optical illusion and nothing more.

Two parallel perspective lines traveling into the distance will appear to be angled towards each other and approach each other if you were to stand in-between them. You are saying that these perspective lines will approach each other for infinity and never meet, when this defies logic. How can two lines angled at each other never meet?

In our vision these lines do meet, at the vanishing point, and an attempt is being made to call this an illusion on the basis of ancient theories of infinity. The need for empirical proof is denied altogether, in favor of "theory".

Your assertion that they never "ACTUALLY" meet if you were to change your position and see the situation from a different perspective is irrelevant. From that position, they DO meet, which implies that the angles eventually merge, that photons from that area are increasingly trying to occupy the same space at once, and it is possible that some may be blocked out if the earth is not perfectly flat and there are any slight imperfections on the surface as the lines merge (sunset).

You are operating under the assumption that perspective is all an illusion, and that there is a greater reality that operates from a theoretical side angle view seen from outside of the universe, where these triangles and conclusions of infinities may be plotted onto a diagram, rather than reality operating in line with the rules of first person perspective observed.

We can see that my assertions on this matter are based in empiricism, on what actually is observed, whereas your assertions are based entirely on ancient theory.

Probably a breach of etiquette to re quote from much earlier in the thread, but I have to comment on this.

Quote
Two parallel perspective lines traveling into the distance will appear to be angled towards each other and approach each other if you were to stand in-between them. You are saying that these perspective lines will approach each other for infinity and never meet, when this defies logic. How can two lines angled at each other never meet?

I see "perspective" being used here as a catch-all magic bullet of explanations. Perspective is how you see something, not how it exists.

Read the quote above and picture yourself standing between two long straight railroad tracks. It is really the most simple example possible. Do you see two lines angling towards each other? Yes. Do you see two angles converging? Yes. If the track is long enough and empty, do they appear to converge at a far off point? Yes. That is your perspective. Do they actually ever meet? Of course not. That would make it rather hard on the trains that use them.

Now walk a few dozen feet perpendicular to the tracks, turn and look back at them. Are they still angled towards each other? No. Did the tracks change or move? No, your perspective changed, reality did not.

So since perspective doesn't define the interactions of these things, there are certainly not a bunching of photons around a "vanishing point."