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Offline CriticalThinker

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #220 on: August 25, 2017, 08:00:09 PM »
Fully agree with TomInAustin, a great post! Well laid out thank you. Although since we haven't seen a word from Tom in about 10 days, and I don't know that I've ever seen Junker respond in a strongly constructive manner, I'm doubtful of too much happening. CriticalThinker, would you mind if I posted this to the old(?) site and linked to this thread? There appear to be much more FE believers over there. Or perhaps you would be up for reposting it over there as a new thread. The site is here by the way. I've heard it referred to as the old site by Junker I believe, but it appears to have a bit larger population than this one from what I've been seeing perusing it recently.

I was unaware of the old site, so please by all means link to my post.

Thank you

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #221 on: August 25, 2017, 08:19:43 PM »
Straight line travel margins of error were reported specifically as 1.9% and it was a direct quote from the researchers.

They were assuming that it was a Round Earth Radar Test, as opposed to a Flat Earth Radar Test. They were comparing the Round Earth coordinate devices (GPS) to the Radar Test values, without knowing which shape of the earth they were on. The distance of a mile would measure differently on a Flat Earth vs using a Round Earth lat/lon coordinate system.

Since the GPS values were giving a wide range of answers we do not know which one is the most accurate, or how accurate they were, if the radar test was done on a Flat Earth.

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Offline TomInAustin

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #222 on: August 25, 2017, 08:22:04 PM »
Straight line travel margins of error were reported specifically as 1.9% and it was a direct quote from the researchers.

They were assuming that it was a Round Earth Radar Test, as opposed to a Flat Earth Radar Test. They were comparing the Round Earth coordinate devices (GPS) to the Radar Test values, without knowing which shape of the earth they were on. The distance of a mile would measure differently on a Flat Earth vs using a Round Earth lat/lon coordinate system.

Since the GPS values were giving a wide range of answers we do not know which one is the most accurate, or how accurate they were, if the radar test was done on a Flat Earth.


But the radar still gives an accurate speed and that is what counts in this discussion. 
I don't have to go to the gym, I get all my exercise jumping to conclusions.-sandokhan

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #223 on: August 25, 2017, 08:24:59 PM »
Straight line travel margins of error were reported specifically as 1.9% and it was a direct quote from the researchers.

They were assuming that it was a Round Earth Radar Test, as opposed to a Flat Earth Radar Test. They were comparing the Round Earth coordinate devices (GPS) to the Radar Test values, without knowing which shape of the earth they were on. The distance of a mile would measure differently on a Flat Earth vs using a Round Earth lat/lon coordinate system.

Since the GPS values were giving a wide range of answers we do not know which one is the most accurate, or how accurate they were, if the radar test was done on a Flat Earth.


But the radar still gives an accurate speed and that is what counts in this discussion.

If a mile is different under the two systems, and is dependant on how it is measured, that means mph is in error.

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #224 on: August 25, 2017, 08:25:29 PM »
Straight line travel margins of error were reported specifically as 1.9% and it was a direct quote from the researchers.

They were assuming that it was a Round Earth Radar Test, as opposed to a Flat Earth Radar Test. They were comparing the Round Earth coordinate devices (GPS) to Radar Test values, without knowing which shape of the earth they were on. The distance of a mile would measure differently on a Flat Earth vs using a Round Earth lat/lon coordinate system.

Since the GPS values were giving a wide range of answers we do not know which one is the most accurate, or how accurate they were, if the radar test was done on a Flat Earth.

Tom, please propose an accurate measurement system that you will accept. You do nothing but call the systems being used inaccurate because they aren't flat Earther approved. The reason everything takes into account the curvature of the Earth is because it is freaking round. If the curvature amount was inaccurate, all those systems that rely on precision location data would fail.
I saw a video where a pilot was flying above the sun.
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Offline CriticalThinker

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #225 on: August 25, 2017, 08:26:20 PM »
Straight line travel margins of error were reported specifically as 1.9% and it was a direct quote from the researchers.

They were assuming that it was a Round Earth Radar Test, as opposed to a Flat Earth Radar Test. They were comparing the Round Earth coordinate devices (GPS) to the Radar Test values, without knowing which shape of the earth they were on. The distance of a mile would measure differently on a Flat Earth vs using a Round Earth lat/lon coordinate system.

Since the GPS values were giving a wide range of answers we do not know which one is the most accurate, or how accurate they were, if the radar test was done on a Flat Earth.

They were not assuming any shape of the earth during the radar controlled GPS validation.  They were testing a new method of measuring speed under specific conditions against a long established valid control.  They were specifically testing if GPS trackers were accurate enough to calculate metabolic expenditures of athletes in sports.  In the above cited article, radar was the control measurement device which we have already established does not assume a globed earth model.  Radar measures the Doppler shift effect and is <1% margin of error to a measured track and stopwatch.  Airline speed as measured by the Doppler shift effect is still a valid method of establishing air speed relative to ground speed as was established by the first article that I referenced.  That the GPS speeds and radar speeds reported by aircraft match is irrelevant to the proofs that I have supplied.  We could communally agree to ignore airline speed as measured by GPS altogether and the rest of my argument can still stand on its own because flights are also tracked by Doppler shift radar. 

At this point you can either attempt to invalidate the Doppler shift effect using physics and mathematics to prove its inaccuracy or contest one of my 3 assumptions.  I have listed out my assumptions above and none of them require a globed earth.  I can hang my hat on the accuracy of echolocation for determining the strait line speed of an object in flight relative to its speed on the ground and my final conclusions are not invalidated.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #226 on: August 25, 2017, 08:28:54 PM »
Straight line travel margins of error were reported specifically as 1.9% and it was a direct quote from the researchers.

They were assuming that it was a Round Earth Radar Test, as opposed to a Flat Earth Radar Test. They were comparing the Round Earth coordinate devices (GPS) to Radar Test values, without knowing which shape of the earth they were on. The distance of a mile would measure differently on a Flat Earth vs using a Round Earth lat/lon coordinate system.

Since the GPS values were giving a wide range of answers we do not know which one is the most accurate, or how accurate they were, if the radar test was done on a Flat Earth.

Tom, please propose an accurate measurement system that you will accept. You do nothing but call the systems being used inaccurate because they aren't flat Earther approved. The reason everything takes into account the curvature of the Earth is because it is freaking round. If the curvature amount was inaccurate, all those systems that rely on precision location data would fail.

The problem is that you expect us to take your Round Earth coordinate system as face value accurate truth. That would be silly of us. If we assume that Round Earth lat/lon is true then we might as well just assume that the earth is round.

My car GPS successfully takes me to a location, based on coordinates, without me needing to know how much distance I actually traveled, or if the lat/lon distance prediction was correct. I do not see why you believe that airplanes would be any different.

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Offline CriticalThinker

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #227 on: August 25, 2017, 08:31:13 PM »
Straight line travel margins of error were reported specifically as 1.9% and it was a direct quote from the researchers.

They were assuming that it was a Round Earth Radar Test, as opposed to a Flat Earth Radar Test. They were comparing the Round Earth coordinate devices (GPS) to the Radar Test values, without knowing which shape of the earth they were on. The distance of a mile would measure differently on a Flat Earth vs using a Round Earth lat/lon coordinate system.

Since the GPS values were giving a wide range of answers we do not know which one is the most accurate, or how accurate they were, if the radar test was done on a Flat Earth.


But the radar still gives an accurate speed and that is what counts in this discussion.

If a mile is different under the two systems, and is dependant on how it is measured, that means mph is in error.

Am I correct in assuming that you are calling into question the existence of the variable distance or the physical measuring devices used to establish it?

In my previous post, I established that a standardized system of measuring distance on a flat plane is in existence.  The 2 systems of measurement Metric and Imperial are valid on a variety of surfaces both planar and curvilinear.  That has been a requirement for all variations on science and manufacturing for all of industrialized human history.

Thank You

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Offline CriticalThinker

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #228 on: August 25, 2017, 08:33:14 PM »
Straight line travel margins of error were reported specifically as 1.9% and it was a direct quote from the researchers.

They were assuming that it was a Round Earth Radar Test, as opposed to a Flat Earth Radar Test. They were comparing the Round Earth coordinate devices (GPS) to Radar Test values, without knowing which shape of the earth they were on. The distance of a mile would measure differently on a Flat Earth vs using a Round Earth lat/lon coordinate system.

Since the GPS values were giving a wide range of answers we do not know which one is the most accurate, or how accurate they were, if the radar test was done on a Flat Earth.

Tom, please propose an accurate measurement system that you will accept. You do nothing but call the systems being used inaccurate because they aren't flat Earther approved. The reason everything takes into account the curvature of the Earth is because it is freaking round. If the curvature amount was inaccurate, all those systems that rely on precision location data would fail.

The problem is that you expect us to take your Round Earth coordinate system as face value accurate truth. That would be silly of us. If we assume that Round Earth lat/lon is true then we might as well just assume that the earth is round.

My car GPS successfully takes me to a location, based on coordinates, without me needing to know how much distance I actually traveled, or if the lat/lon distance prediction was correct. I do not see why you believe that airplanes would be any different.

The Radar system of speed measurement does not rely upon a latitude and longitude coordinate system and as such remains a valid method of establishing speed as per my post above.

Thank you,

CriticalThinker
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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #229 on: August 25, 2017, 08:33:24 PM »
Straight line travel margins of error were reported specifically as 1.9% and it was a direct quote from the researchers.

They were assuming that it was a Round Earth Radar Test, as opposed to a Flat Earth Radar Test. They were comparing the Round Earth coordinate devices (GPS) to Radar Test values, without knowing which shape of the earth they were on. The distance of a mile would measure differently on a Flat Earth vs using a Round Earth lat/lon coordinate system.

Since the GPS values were giving a wide range of answers we do not know which one is the most accurate, or how accurate they were, if the radar test was done on a Flat Earth.

Tom, please propose an accurate measurement system that you will accept. You do nothing but call the systems being used inaccurate because they aren't flat Earther approved. The reason everything takes into account the curvature of the Earth is because it is freaking round. If the curvature amount was inaccurate, all those systems that rely on precision location data would fail.

The problem is that you expect us to take your Round Earth coordinate system as face value accurate truth. That would be silly of us. If we assume that Round Earth lat/lon is true then we might as well just assume that the earth is round.

My car GPS successfully takes me to a location, based on coordinates, without me needing to know how much distance I actually traveled, or if the lat/lon prediction was correct. I do not see why you believe that airplanes would be any different.
The give us the difference between a FE mile and a RE mile, a distance you personally know to be accurate, or a viable way to figure out a distance. You can't just sit there and continue to say "Your distances are wrong because I say they are." Is a mile different on FE? Yes or no. If yes, by how much? 5% or less? Then it's irrelevant. These devices are measuring speed, based on miles per hour. The ONLY way for MPH to be wrong enough to matter, is for a FE mile to be significantly longer or shorter than a RE mile. If it is, by how much, and how do you know?

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #230 on: August 25, 2017, 08:34:39 PM »
Straight line travel margins of error were reported specifically as 1.9% and it was a direct quote from the researchers.

They were assuming that it was a Round Earth Radar Test, as opposed to a Flat Earth Radar Test. They were comparing the Round Earth coordinate devices (GPS) to Radar Test values, without knowing which shape of the earth they were on. The distance of a mile would measure differently on a Flat Earth vs using a Round Earth lat/lon coordinate system.

Since the GPS values were giving a wide range of answers we do not know which one is the most accurate, or how accurate they were, if the radar test was done on a Flat Earth.

Tom, please propose an accurate measurement system that you will accept. You do nothing but call the systems being used inaccurate because they aren't flat Earther approved. The reason everything takes into account the curvature of the Earth is because it is freaking round. If the curvature amount was inaccurate, all those systems that rely on precision location data would fail.

The problem is that you expect us to take your Round Earth coordinate system as face value accurate truth. That would be silly of us. If we assume that Round Earth lat/lon is true then we might as well just assume that the earth is round.

My car GPS successfully takes me to a location, based on coordinates, without me needing to know how much distance I actually traveled, or if the lat/lon prediction was correct. I do not see why you believe that airplanes would be any different.

What is silly is that you enter these "debates" with no real information. You have no map, you don't know distances, you have no idea how long a mile is, why even debate distance??? It is ridiculous.
I saw a video where a pilot was flying above the sun.
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Offline TomInAustin

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #231 on: August 25, 2017, 08:34:59 PM »
Straight line travel margins of error were reported specifically as 1.9% and it was a direct quote from the researchers.

They were assuming that it was a Round Earth Radar Test, as opposed to a Flat Earth Radar Test. They were comparing the Round Earth coordinate devices (GPS) to the Radar Test values, without knowing which shape of the earth they were on. The distance of a mile would measure differently on a Flat Earth vs using a Round Earth lat/lon coordinate system.

Since the GPS values were giving a wide range of answers we do not know which one is the most accurate, or how accurate they were, if the radar test was done on a Flat Earth.


But the radar still gives an accurate speed and that is what counts in this discussion.

If a mile is different under the two systems, and is dependant on how it is measured, that means mph is in error.

A mile is 5280 feet in any system.   But again, not relevant as the radar doesn't care at all if it is on a flat earth, a globe, in the air, pointing up or down.  All it knows it is sends out signals and gets them back to know the distance and how fast targets are moving.



I don't have to go to the gym, I get all my exercise jumping to conclusions.-sandokhan

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #232 on: August 25, 2017, 08:36:39 PM »
What is silly is that you enter these "debates" with no real information. You have no map, you don't know distances, you have no idea how long a mile is, why even debate distance??? It is ridiculous.

On a Flat Earth a mile is 5280 feet as it has always been defined. However, GPS will be in error when attempting to measure out exactly 5280 feet, because GPS is not accurate. We have already seen that multiple devices gave out wildly different values for the runners on a small track.

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Offline TomInAustin

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #233 on: August 25, 2017, 08:38:39 PM »
What is silly is that you enter these "debates" with no real information. You have no map, you don't know distances, you have no idea how long a mile is, why even debate distance??? It is ridiculous.

On a Flat Earth a mile is 5280 feet as it has always been defined. However, GPS will be in error when attempting to measure out exactly 5280 feet, because GPS is not accurate.

Again, we agreed radar is accurate and was before GPS even came about.  Let's all just pretend GPS is invalid and go with radar speeds.  That way we can get the discussion back on track.  Deal?

I don't have to go to the gym, I get all my exercise jumping to conclusions.-sandokhan

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #234 on: August 25, 2017, 08:41:14 PM »
What is silly is that you enter these "debates" with no real information. You have no map, you don't know distances, you have no idea how long a mile is, why even debate distance??? It is ridiculous.

On a Flat Earth a mile is 5280 feet as it has always been defined. However, GPS will be in error when attempting to measure out exactly 5280 feet, because GPS is not accurate.

Again, we agreed radar is accurate and was before GPS even came about.  Let's all just pretend GPS is invalid and go with radar speeds.  That way we can get the discussion back on track.  Deal?

I don't mind assuming that Radar is accurate.

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Offline CriticalThinker

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #235 on: August 25, 2017, 08:42:20 PM »
What is silly is that you enter these "debates" with no real information. You have no map, you don't know distances, you have no idea how long a mile is, why even debate distance??? It is ridiculous.

On a Flat Earth a mile is 5280 feet as it has always been defined. However, GPS will be in error when attempting to measure out exactly 5280 feet, because GPS is not accurate. We have already seen that multiple devices gave out wildly different values for the runners on a small track.

As stated earlier in this thread, GPS accuracy compared to Doppler shift radar is not a requirement of my initial proofs.  All of my conclusions regarding the algebraic solutions for distance and the geometry calculations presented earlier in this thread are substantiated by the speed measurements as obtained by Doppler radar technology which has a tested margin of error of <1%.

Tom, please discuss.

Thank You

CriticalThinker
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #236 on: August 25, 2017, 08:43:35 PM »
As stated earlier in this thread, GPS accuracy compared to Doppler shift radar is not a requirement of my initial proofs.  All of my conclusions regarding the algebraic solutions for distance and the geometry calculations presented earlier in this thread are substantiated by the speed measurements as obtained by Doppler radar technology which has a tested margin of error of <1%.

Tom, please discuss.

Thank You

CriticalThinker

Your flight values are based on GPS being accurate.

You base the idea on GPS being accurate by that Radar vs GPS study.

The study is wrong because the devices give out a wide range of error and you are picking out the value that you like.

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Offline CriticalThinker

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #237 on: August 25, 2017, 08:48:16 PM »
As stated earlier in this thread, GPS accuracy compared to Doppler shift radar is not a requirement of my initial proofs.  All of my conclusions regarding the algebraic solutions for distance and the geometry calculations presented earlier in this thread are substantiated by the speed measurements as obtained by Doppler radar technology which has a tested margin of error of <1%.

Tom, please discuss.

Thank You

CriticalThinker

Your flight values are based on GPS being accurate.

No they are not.  Commercial airlines have both types of instrumentation.  Flight speeds are tracked using Doppler shift radar in addition to GPS, so the flight speeds remain valid under your constraints of a flat earth compatible system of measurement.

Please discuss any of the other points of my initial hypothesis, assumptions or conclusions.  The accuracy of speed data is no longer a valid dismissal as it is obtained using a flat earth compatible measurement system simultaneously with GPS.

Thank You

CriticalThinker
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Offline TomInAustin

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #238 on: August 25, 2017, 08:51:31 PM »
What is silly is that you enter these "debates" with no real information. You have no map, you don't know distances, you have no idea how long a mile is, why even debate distance??? It is ridiculous.

On a Flat Earth a mile is 5280 feet as it has always been defined. However, GPS will be in error when attempting to measure out exactly 5280 feet, because GPS is not accurate.

Again, we agreed radar is accurate and was before GPS even came about.  Let's all just pretend GPS is invalid and go with radar speeds.  That way we can get the discussion back on track.  Deal?

I don't mind assuming that Radar is accurate.

Good, that's reasonable.  Let me ask if you think it's reasonable to accept the published cruise speeds of filed flight plans?  All airline flights have publicly available flight plans with the planned cruise speeds.  Flight times can vary based on pattern traffic so some amount of error must be allowed for using published data.   What would you think an allowable error would be?  5% would seem reasonable to me over a large number of flights.
I don't have to go to the gym, I get all my exercise jumping to conclusions.-sandokhan

Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #239 on: August 25, 2017, 10:21:48 PM »
As stated earlier in this thread, GPS accuracy compared to Doppler shift radar is not a requirement of my initial proofs.  All of my conclusions regarding the algebraic solutions for distance and the geometry calculations presented earlier in this thread are substantiated by the speed measurements as obtained by Doppler radar technology which has a tested margin of error of <1%.

Tom, please discuss.

Thank You

CriticalThinker

Your flight values are based on GPS being accurate.

You base the idea on GPS being accurate by that Radar vs GPS study.

The study is wrong because the devices give out a wide range of error and you are picking out the value that you like.
Source of the study please.