Ive recently been giving some ear time to the viability of the “flat earth” theory. The recorded information from the FE community on YouTube I have to admit is very convincing and compelling and therefore worth a closer look.  You guys may really be on to something.
But since Im not inclined to immediately jump down the rabbit hole on anything without further investigation, there are a few things about the FE theory (as a whole) that I need resolved before I can take the leap from curiosity to being fully convinced.

This is what I understand so far. Tell me if I have this correct....or not.

#1;  regarding the FE model;  Our world is a 3 tiered arrangement in which we live on an expanse of earth that is laid out in a single flat plane and enclosed inside an impenetrable dome (of some substance I have yet to get a reasonable or adequate answer as to what its made of,  but according to current FE sources,  its thick and semi-solid or semi-liquid, and cannot be penetrated from either the inside out or the outside in. Plus other info having to do with the FE model. (but not all)
And.....#2,
The FE movement also claims that the governmental entities around the world  including our own,  have known this is the world we live in all along but have deliberately chosen not to disclose this information to the people. (For what purpose or to what end they would do this has not been reasonably answered),

and #3; the US government developed the aerospace agency NASA to help the UN and individual governments perpetuate their deception with false propaganda about the world and universe we live in, to assure we continue to believe the lie that we been told to believe; such as that we live in a really big universe of cosmic bodies, living on a globe revolving around a big ball of hot gas undergoing a nuclear reaction, etc etc. (like I said, the purpose for this deception or to what this deception is supposed to achieve or do for the NWO agenda has not been adequately addressed by the FE movement leaders).
And lastly #4...
The claim that Everything that NASA has told us, or tells us, or has showed us regarding the universe and our surrounding environment has been lies and deceptions...such as space travel, moon landings, the ISS, the deployment of satellites, other planets, etc etc. 

But with all the info that I have acquired there is still a few things that I dont completely understand, and I wont be fully convinced until I do.
IF what the FE movement claims is really true and they want the world to know the “truth”, then Im ready to believe the truth.

But I want to communicate with a real person who is adequately enlightened themselves, not some bonehead just guessing at things, pulling the answers out of the air or simply parroting what others have told them, not really understanding themselves. Im tired of attempting to get answers from those that seem to believe, but dont really understand any more than I do. I need a knowledgeable person.

I dont want to waste anybodies time, or mine, by including my questions at this time if no knowledgeable person on the subject is interested in addressing them or chooses not to even respond to the call for help to begin with.
So...is there someone out there willing or able to enlighten me further? If so, then I will reply with what I need a more in-depth explanation about. A big thank you to anyone responding.





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Re: Needing a knowledgeable person in the FE movement to enlighten me.
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2017, 04:48:24 AM »
Hi Cosmic Enigma.

I wanted to reply but I probably know as much as you do,
The wiki on here is a good place to start.

I can tell you a couple of things though, firstly, not every FEer believes in a dome.
(I believe in a dome, but I am a Christian and would be in the minority on this site)
 
The "why are they bothering to hide all this stuff" question can depend on how you view the world.
I see it as a cosmic drama of sorts, wickedness in high places, satan being the father of lies.
Others may see it as a class thing by the ruling elite, you are not worthy to know, now get back to work.

There are knowledgeable FEers on this site, and even some knowledgeable Roundies, who don't mind playing the devils advocate, before they pull out their guns and shoot it full of holes, expect both kinds of replies.
 
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 04:51:52 AM by Dither »
A lie will make it around the world before the truth has time to put on its shoes.

Re: Needing a knowledgeable person in the FE movement to enlighten me.
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2017, 01:21:40 PM »
There's a few possible responses to this question that I'm aware of.

One is that elite politicians and scientists initially believed the world was round just as almost all of us do today, based on false interpretations of observations they've been making since Aristotle's day, and were shocked to discover it was flat (and domed, if you're a flat earther who believes in a dome, I suppose round earthers could believe in a dome too, but anyway) when they attempted space travel.
They couldn't tell the public, because mainstream politics and science would lose all credibility ('if they're wrong about this supposedly most cardinal of scientific facts, that the earth is round and not domed, than they must be wrong about nearly everything'), and so they were forced to perpetuate the lie.

Another is money, NASA receives trillions upon trillions of dollars in tax, and most of that money actually goes into making the fat cats even fatter.

If the flat earth isn't domed, or even if it is domed, but it's an infinite plane, there could be life, even sentient life unknown to mainstream science and all sorts of things beyond the ice wall they're hiding from us, so as not to rock the boat, disturb and disrupt our consciousness.
There may be technologies, resources and things they wish to monopolize, so as to further widen the already growing gulf that exists between us and them in terms knowledge, power and wealth.

If you're a creationist, round earth theory could be part of Satan's plot to eliminate God from man's consciousness.

Perhaps round earth and all the rest of it is more akin to a religious belief than it is science, just as round earthers accuse flat earthers of being unscientific and flat earth theory as fundamentally faith based.
Maybe round earth pseudoscientists will continue believing it in spite of all evidence to the contrary.
Round earth theory could even be one belief, albeit a pivotal one, in an occult belief system of sorts, devised, developed or at least maintained by the 'illuminati', which is competing with Christianity and other religions and cosmologies for dominance.
The more esoteric or supernatural side, if it has one, of this belief system might be concealed from the gen pop, and may be revealed when the fruit is ripe sort of speak.

We may live a spiritual, magical world, a magic that is being monopolized by the elite by getting us to think in purely materialistic and mechanistic ways (we live on one billiard ball earth, whirling around and bouncing off other billiard balls at random, instead of the truth, which may be that we're a divine incarnation of Ishvara, Brahman or something to that effect).

They could be keeping round earth and accompanying cosmology (big bang, infinite space, other planets and so on) because of what believing these things does to our consciousness and behavior, perhaps believing in round earth cosmology along with evolution does something to us, makes us easier to manage for their purposes: money, power, that sort of thing.


Anyhow, I'm not actually a flat earther, and most of this stuff is just my own thinking, flat earthers rarely address the conspiracy side of things for some reason(s), or no reason, I just like expanding and exploring my conception of what's possible.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2017, 01:46:56 PM by Antithecystem »

Re: Needing a knowledgeable person in the FE movement to enlighten me.
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2017, 01:51:51 PM »
Perhaps the plane is both infinite, and domed, and the elite have been charged by the Gods or sentient organisms from other parts of the plane with keeping man confined within it, as we're insufficiently morally and spiritually evolved to be let loose at this time, I know that's a pretty wild, wacky thought *laughs.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2017, 01:55:45 PM by Antithecystem »

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Offline Roundy

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Re: Needing a knowledgeable person in the FE movement to enlighten me.
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2017, 06:48:20 PM »
The OP's suppositions really don't represent our views at all. It seems to be a mishmash of YouTube nonsense. Read the wiki on the relevant topics, that's all I can really say.
Electro-Theologist, Poet, Philosopher, Musician, Etymologist, Egyptologist, Astro-Theologist, Geocentrist, Flat Earther, and Collector of Rare Books.

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Offline Dither

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Re: Needing a knowledgeable person in the FE movement to enlighten me.
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2017, 10:28:33 PM »
If you're a creationist, round earth theory could be part of Satan's plot to eliminate God from man's consciousness.

That's me  ;D

This was an excellent summation from someone who doesn't believe in FET.
Smokified should take down some notes.

 
A lie will make it around the world before the truth has time to put on its shoes.

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Re: Needing a knowledgeable person in the FE movement to enlighten me.
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2017, 12:16:13 AM »
The OP's suppositions really don't represent our views at all. It seems to be a mishmash of YouTube nonsense. Read the wiki on the relevant topics, that's all I can really say.

When you say "our views", who are you referring to?

I am referring to the classic view as espoused in the wiki. The context might have helped you figure that out but it's okay, I recognize that you're not that bright. Just don't expect me to constantly be here to hold your hand.
Electro-Theologist, Poet, Philosopher, Musician, Etymologist, Egyptologist, Astro-Theologist, Geocentrist, Flat Earther, and Collector of Rare Books.

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Re: Needing a knowledgeable person in the FE movement to enlighten me.
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2017, 12:58:41 AM »
If you're a creationist, round earth theory could be part of Satan's plot to eliminate God from man's consciousness.

That's me  ;D

This was an excellent summation from someone who doesn't believe in FET.
Smokified should take down some notes.

Explain how a round earth and "eliminating god" are even remotely correlated.

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Offline Roundy

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Re: Needing a knowledgeable person in the FE movement to enlighten me.
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2017, 04:29:39 AM »
The OP's suppositions really don't represent our views at all. It seems to be a mishmash of YouTube nonsense. Read the wiki on the relevant topics, that's all I can really say.

When you say "our views", who are you referring to?

I am referring to the classic view as espoused in the wiki. The context might have helped you figure that out but it's okay, I recognize that you're not that bright. Just don't expect me to constantly be here to hold your hand.

Clearly you put too much weight in your opinion of yourself.  Did you see how you had to remove the actual context of my comment just to make yours?

Well, I removed the attack part of your response, for the sake of decorum. Aside from that I clearly answered your question, even in the full context you intended as far as I can see. There is indeed a diverse array of opinions regarding FE, as can be said about just about any worthy endeavor honestly, but there's really only one endorsed by this website, and that is the one in the wiki. Again I made it abundantly clear that this was the view I was referring to even before you asked so I'm going to take a cue from an old colleague and recommend you visit a website called rif.org. Proper reading comprehension is essential in our modern information-based society so I would sincerely suggest you take my recommendation seriously.
Electro-Theologist, Poet, Philosopher, Musician, Etymologist, Egyptologist, Astro-Theologist, Geocentrist, Flat Earther, and Collector of Rare Books.

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Re: Needing a knowledgeable person in the FE movement to enlighten me.
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2017, 05:40:33 AM »
You are wasting your own time specifically trying to find false information to prove something that isn't.  The Earth is not flat.  Period.

Since you decided to come back spamming even more than before, I am giving you a week vacation and removing your non-contributory posts.
Please make sure to check out these resources to ensure that your time at tfes.org is enjoyable and productive.

1. The Rules

2. The FAQ

3. The Wiki

You're doing God's work, junker.

Re: Needing a knowledgeable person in the FE movement to enlighten me.
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2017, 10:19:42 PM »
If you're a creationist, round earth theory could be part of Satan's plot to eliminate God from man's consciousness.

That's me  ;D

This was an excellent summation from someone who doesn't believe in FET.
Smokified should take down some notes.
Yea I try to understand other peoples worldview, even ones very different to my own, even ones I have no intention of adopting.
I find other points of view radically different to my own or to the mainstream very interesting.

Re: Needing a knowledgeable person in the FE movement to enlighten me.
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2017, 11:05:49 PM »
There's a very good reason most flat-earthers don't address the conspiracy very much:  It's that it makes no sense.

How on earth (flat or round) could such a conspiracy possibly work? There are so many problems with the mechanics of it.

1. It requires perfect collusion from every space agency. Public or Private, they all have to be in cahoots on this, and for no clear reason. (I have seen some answers to this in this thread, and I'm going to pretend for the moment that I find them satisfactory so that we can move on to the other points.)

2. How do they know everybody they need to silence? It seems like it would be very easy for any plane pilot, balloon hobbiest, sailor and countless others to see the vast wall of ice that keeps the world in place, or recognizes some other point of proof for FET. Yet they're all silent. How do the conspirators know who has seen the truth? How do they communicate with them to negotiate their silence? They can't be killing them all, because there are just way too many people who claim to circumnavigate the globe and live to tell the tale, so those people all have to have been bribed somehow.

3. How much money does the conspiracy cost? I mean, let's just think of some basic logistics here. They have to somehow monitor the entire planet, personally reach out to anybody that sees the truth, and then somehow silence them. Even assuming they aren't having to pay these people off, how much money does it cost to run the vast infrastructure that protects the secret?

We're talking huge agencies with thousands of employees at minimum; maintaining the veil has to be their primary means of employment, and they have to do it all in total secrecy. Do banks not notice these sums of money? The IRS? Every politician in government? Every watchdog group that keeps a tight eye on national budgets?

4. What is the motive for the conspiracy? Like, if the whole of the scientific community and every world leader came out tomorrow and said, "You know what? The Earth is actually flat. We're sorry we've lied for so long, but you need to know the truth."

Then what? Kinda nothing. I mean, people would be mad and ask lots of questions, but the one question I don't see being answered anywhere is: "Why keep it a secret?" We didn't invent it to compete with the Russians, because the idea of a round earth pre-dates the space program by literal centuries, if not a millennium. Where did the need to lie about this first spring up? Who would give two craps if the world were actually flat enough to attempt to lie about it for hundreds and hundreds of years, spanning multiple generations and literally every planet on earth? What is so frightening about this knowledge to make it worth concealing?


Here's the thing. Any FET believer can say whatever they want about the logistics of sunlight, how GPS really works, or any other physical phenomenon and easily file it away under "optical illusions" or other such limiting option. But motives are actually harder to pin down, and they don't want to acknowledge that the equation would really look like this:

Here are the two possibilities on either side of the equation:

Throughout fifteen-thousand years and billions and billions of people, a vast conspiracy has emerged and holds sway that the world is round even though it's really flat. This conspiracy is limitlessly expensive to perpetuate, inexplicable in terms of its reach, and the only reason it's able to perpetuate is because almost all people are mindless sheep.

                                                                                                   OR

A collection of hotheads who are contrarian, crazy, or not that bright have found one another and deny one of the most fundamental facts about the planet on which they live.

Occam's Razor tells me that the second choice is more likely simply because it is the simplest of the two options, but even stripping that away, let's look at the basic pessimism of FET.

To be a true FET believer, you have to assume that you are smarter than literally 99.9 percent of the population. That you alone have stripped away the veil and revealed the truth. It's not just wrong, it's supremely arrogant.

If you are an FET person, that's question you have to ask yourself: "Why am *I* so smart?" "What makes *ME* so much more special than the other 7 billion people on this flat earth?"

Go on. What's your answer?

Re: Needing a knowledgeable person in the FE movement to enlighten me.
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2017, 11:35:55 PM »
If you're a creationist, round earth theory could be part of Satan's plot to eliminate God from man's consciousness.

That's me  ;D

This was an excellent summation from someone who doesn't believe in FET.
Smokified should take down some notes.

Explain how a round earth and "eliminating god" are even remotely correlated.
I'm not saying they're necessarily related, but some Christians believe the bible claims the earth is flat, based on their interpretation of it, and anything that undermines the veracity of the bible or aspects of it, undermines creationism, in their minds.
That being said, Catholics have always believed in a round world, and have found it to be perfectly compatible with the bible.
However, round earth paves the way for other aspects of the standard model, such as heliocentrism and later on acentrism, the big bang, the formulation of star systems, galaxies and all the rest of it, a universe which's basically null and void, empty and lifeless.
Some of these doctrines are incompatible with biblical creationism, while others make creationism itself, biblical or non-biblical, harder to believe, as well as leaving less room for an active God, divine intervention.
That being said, if some atheists and agnostics were to develop flat earth in a naturalistic direction, than flat earth theory, or some flat earth theories, could also take on non-biblical or anti-creationist doctrines.

I suppose round earth could in a round, about way undermine traditional morality and absolutes.
On a flat plane, there's an absolute up/down...like right/wrong, where as on a round world, up/down are relative, which might pave the way for other forms of relativism in man's thinking, such as heliocentrism and later on acentrism, relativity in physics, relativity in the social sciences, existentialism, postmodernism, indeed the last several centuries of intellectual, social and moral decay can perhaps be pinned on round earth *laughs.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2017, 11:42:53 PM by Antithecystem »

Re: Needing a knowledgeable person in the FE movement to enlighten me.
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2017, 01:30:25 AM »
Who says most scientists have to be in on it?
Most people, including scientists, are arguably gullible sheep/lemmings who will happily march single file off a bridge or into a gas chamber.
Humans have believed many lies before en masse, they believe many lies now, and they will believe many lies in the future, that much is certain.
We can argue over the likelihood of round earth being another one of those lies, but it's not impossible.
You don't need every scientist to be in on it, only a handful of shadowy scientific elites in collusion with the financial and political elites, who're more obviously corrupt, would have to be in the know, the rest can be duped, mislead.
I'm not even saying it's likely, if anything I'd say it's not, but not every policeman has to be consciously corrupt, in order for the police department, the institution itself to be systematically corrupt.
People just follow orders, do as their told, interpret the data the way they've been told to...or lose your prestige, your career, your life.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 01:47:44 AM by Antithecystem »

Re: Needing a knowledgeable person in the FE movement to enlighten me.
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2017, 02:13:11 AM »
Do not underestimate the will to conform.
Most people are terrified of standing up and standing out, of alienation, isolation, of obscurity, poverty, including scientists, perhaps especially scientists, who necessarily spend much-most of their lives conforming in one way or another, economically, educationally, socially.

The mavericks, the Nicola Teslas of the world, the Karl Jungs, the real movers and shakers, creative visionaries are few and far in between, and many-most of them may be on board with the agenda if there is one.
Lots of people have 150+ iQs, even if they only makeup 1% of the population, that's still millions of people, so why'ren't many-most of them innovating in big ways?
Because most people are dull, if not intellectually than personality wise.

Many people rarely have or express their divergent thoughts and opinions, cause there's always a few spineless kiss asses around who never even dreamt of having or expressing any to shame them.
I would rather encourage people to think for themselves, and stand up for what they believe in, even if I disagree with them, even if I think they're, flat, out wrong, I mean how wrong could they be when our civilization is already so wrong, with all our supposed advanced science and technology, never have we been more out of sync and tune with nature than now.

It is better to stand up for what you believe and be wrong, than to shrink from controversy.
Controversy is how a society evolves, and we cannot wait for the system to fix itself, real change always comes from outside the system from individuals or smaller, marginalized, competing systems.
Why is it socially permissible to question everyone in society from bankers, to bureaucrats, from media, to clergy, but not scientists?
This is not a scientocracy, it's a democracy/republic, principally at least, no individual or institution ought to be beyond internal, and external scrutiny...which's not to say all criticism is equal or should be believed, of course, duh!
« Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 04:47:57 AM by Antithecystem »

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Re: Needing a knowledgeable person in the FE movement to enlighten me.
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2017, 09:25:46 AM »

I’m sorry but Spheri’ is right.

To paint a picture of scientists, and those that believe in the roundness of the earth as mindless followers, shows, not only that you know little of the history, or the practice of science but you have the requisite narcissism to be a fully fledge conspiracy nut, you can see beyond the veil but the rest of us are “sheeple” (Galileo, Turring, Sakharov?) too scared to raise our hands, please!
 
This shadowy elite that leads us by the nose through history, would have to run back before the (supposed) birth of Christ, stretching through the rest of history across pretty much all nations. For what reason? To undermine the teachings of someone who hadn’t been born yet, that’s some forward thinking shadowy elite.

Or just maybe, science discovers stuff that leads us to challenge myths, and the myth-mongers don’t like that.
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

No one infers a god from the simple, from the known, from what is understood, but from the complex, the unknown, and the incomprehensible. Our ignorance is God; what we know is science. Robert Green Ingersoll

Re: Needing a knowledgeable person in the FE movement to enlighten me.
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2017, 09:21:22 PM »
Do not underestimate the will to conform.
Most people are terrified of standing up and standing out, of alienation, isolation, of obscurity, poverty, including scientists, perhaps especially scientists, who necessarily spend much-most of their lives conforming in one way or another, economically, educationally, socially.

Okay. So why aren't you such a person? What makes you so special that you've seen through this one lie to the truth? Are you one of those great visionaries you write about in the next section? A Tesla? A Jung? Is your IQ 150+ (By the way, I'm of the opinion that only true conformists rely on IQ as an indicator of anything. The test was invented only to gauge below average intelligence, not a measure of those with supposedly more, but that's a whole other discussion.)

Quote
The mavericks, the Nicola Teslas of the world, the Karl Jungs, the real movers and shakers, creative visionaries are few and far in between, and many-most of them may be on board with the agenda if there is one.
Lots of people have 150+ iQs, even if they only makeup 1% of the population, that's still millions of people, so why'ren't many-most of them innovating in big ways?
Because most people are dull, if not intellectually than personality wise.

That last sentence is really alarming, because that's the kind of thing a sociopath would say. Who are you to sit in judgement of 99% of the world? I may not find sports or cars particularly interesting, but I'm not going to turn around and pat myself on the back because I'm superior and evolved that I don't find such "dull" things to be a source of enjoyment.

One of the great intellectual "mavericks", Socrates, told us that true knowledge was in knowing that we knew nothing. I'm inclined to agree with him as the more I learn, the more I grow skeptical of certainty, particularly in the absence of evidence as in FET's case.

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Many people rarely have or express their divergent thoughts and opinions, cause there's always a few spineless kiss asses around who never even dreamt of having or expressing any to shame them.

I actually can't parse that sentence. I get that you're saying people are afraid to express themselves, and that it has something to do with kiss-asses, but I'm not sure who the "who" you're referring to after that is. The people? The kiss asses? They never express themselves because they fear being shamed by someone? I'm just lost.

Quote
I would rather encourage people to think for themselves, and stand up for what they believe in, even if I disagree with them, even if I think they're, flat, out wrong, I mean how wrong could they be when our civilization is already so wrong, with all our supposed advanced science and technology, never have we been more out of sync and tune with nature than now.

So here's the problem with that. I respect free thought, but I don't believe any thought deserves to live totally unchallenged. Thoughts, like people, need to have their own strength and be able to stand on their own. If you can only support them out of a vague idea that they're exciting and could be true because of a vast and shadowy conspiracy, they aren't worth your support to begin with.

Did you know you can simultaneously be free-thinking, yet agree with a majority of people about an issue? Free thought is about coming to your own conclusions and not just trusting what a majority of the people have to say. I'd like to think I do that by coming here, reading arguments in favor of this unusual idea, and challenging them. Blindly trusting in FET because it's "innovative" or "different" is worse sheep-thinking than a manifesto of "baas" written on wool.

As for nature vs. civilization, that's a whole big discussion we can't hope to tackle here. I will say that we discard natural things that seem to make us suffer as a whole (murder or crapping on the ground) while embracing natural things that give us satisfaction (appreciating nature itself, eating, etc...) but I would never paint "natural" with the broad brush of "correct" to live my life.

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It is better to stand up for what you believe and be wrong, than to shrink from controversy.
And cue Godwin's law in 5...4...3...2.....

I'll just shortcut it by saying that standing up for what you believe when it is objectively wrong isn't admirable in the slightest, it's foolish. Some beliefs have no definitive proof one way or the other of course, and knock yourself out with your beliefs there, sure.

But FET ain't one of 'em. It's just wrong, and demonstrably so.

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Controversy is how a society evolves, and we cannot wait for the system to fix itself, real change always comes from outside the system from individuals or smaller, marginalized, competing systems.
Oh man, have I got a list for this.
1. No it isn't. VALID ideas create controversy. CONTROVERSY itself is not inherently valuable.
2. What system? The system where we know the earth is round and are able to plan GPS, airplane travel, and SPACE FLIGHT accordingly? What do we gain from suddenly embracing the seemingly unprovable precept that the earth is flat? Do any of those things work better? What the ever-loving hell actually changes on a systemic level?
3. Ah, but the system creates and molds those individuals who change things. Were it not for the systems that shaped them, they would not exist to attempt to exert change. It's gibberish nonsense to try and hold people up as somehow existing outside the societies they come from, even if they are great mavericks within their lives.

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Why is it socially permissible to question everyone in society from bankers, to bureaucrats, from media, to clergy, but not scientists?
This is not a scientocracy, it's a democracy/republic, principally at least, no individual or institution ought to be beyond internal, and external scrutiny...which's not to say all criticism is equal or should be believed, of course, duh!

Question scientists all you want; scientists themselves encourage this because that's a valid part of the scientific method.

But don't question the science itself when you can't come up with reasonable challenges to it.

I could tell you that our shadows are made of cheese, and that you shouldn't listen to sheep, self-servicing scientists who insist that it's just the result of blocked photons.

Then you'd say, "Well what proof do you have?"

And I'd say, "It doesn't make sense that shadows are blocked light. How could you see something that was simply the absence of something else? That's silly. Cheese makes way more sense."

Then you'd say, "Why cheese? How do you know our shadows aren't tiny leftover dinosaurs?"

And I'd say, "Well, cheese is just an aproximation. I'm just saying the pervasive so-called science on the matter is far from settled, and I think it's really important that instead we find the truth."

Then you'd say, "This is getting very frustrating. There are so many good and reasonable reasons not to believe what you say, ranging from the fact that our shadows do not smell like cheese and cannot be eaten, and that we can't pick them up like cheese."

And I'd say, "That's just light refracting around the cheese so you can't actually gauge where it is to grab it. That doesn't mean our shadows aren't cheese though."

That's FET at the end of the day. You can make any theory sound plausible so long as you don't need to prove anything concrete, can refute all existing proof as mere optical phenomena, and are steadfast in your belief no matter what comes along.

If we formed all theories the way that FET was formed and questioned all science along the same lines then there would be no science, we'd just be making wild guesses at things all the time, with no clue how to put together new technology, adapt our thinking accurately, or otherwise even interpret the world around us at a basic level, because all things would be seen as equally suspect and unprovable.

But sure, tell me again about how all this free-thinking and non-conformity and controversy is helping things. I'd love to know.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 09:30:30 PM by Sphericult »

Re: Needing a knowledgeable person in the FE movement to enlighten me.
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2017, 02:14:16 AM »
Do not underestimate the will to conform.
Most people are terrified of standing up and standing out, of alienation, isolation, of obscurity, poverty, including scientists, perhaps especially scientists, who necessarily spend much-most of their lives conforming in one way or another, economically, educationally, socially.

Okay. So why aren't you such a person? What makes you so special that you've seen through this one lie to the truth? Are you one of those great visionaries you write about in the next section? A Tesla? A Jung? Is your IQ 150+ (By the way, I'm of the opinion that only true conformists rely on IQ as an indicator of anything. The test was invented only to gauge below average intelligence, not a measure of those with supposedly more, but that's a whole other discussion.)

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The mavericks, the Nicola Teslas of the world, the Karl Jungs, the real movers and shakers, creative visionaries are few and far in between, and many-most of them may be on board with the agenda if there is one.
Lots of people have 150+ iQs, even if they only makeup 1% of the population, that's still millions of people, so why'ren't many-most of them innovating in big ways?
Because most people are dull, if not intellectually than personality wise.

That last sentence is really alarming, because that's the kind of thing a sociopath would say. Who are you to sit in judgement of 99% of the world? I may not find sports or cars particularly interesting, but I'm not going to turn around and pat myself on the back because I'm superior and evolved that I don't find such "dull" things to be a source of enjoyment.

One of the great intellectual "mavericks", Socrates, told us that true knowledge was in knowing that we knew nothing. I'm inclined to agree with him as the more I learn, the more I grow skeptical of certainty, particularly in the absence of evidence as in FET's case.

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Many people rarely have or express their divergent thoughts and opinions, cause there's always a few spineless kiss asses around who never even dreamt of having or expressing any to shame them.

I actually can't parse that sentence. I get that you're saying people are afraid to express themselves, and that it has something to do with kiss-asses, but I'm not sure who the "who" you're referring to after that is. The people? The kiss asses? They never express themselves because they fear being shamed by someone? I'm just lost.

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I would rather encourage people to think for themselves, and stand up for what they believe in, even if I disagree with them, even if I think they're, flat, out wrong, I mean how wrong could they be when our civilization is already so wrong, with all our supposed advanced science and technology, never have we been more out of sync and tune with nature than now.

So here's the problem with that. I respect free thought, but I don't believe any thought deserves to live totally unchallenged. Thoughts, like people, need to have their own strength and be able to stand on their own. If you can only support them out of a vague idea that they're exciting and could be true because of a vast and shadowy conspiracy, they aren't worth your support to begin with.

Did you know you can simultaneously be free-thinking, yet agree with a majority of people about an issue? Free thought is about coming to your own conclusions and not just trusting what a majority of the people have to say. I'd like to think I do that by coming here, reading arguments in favor of this unusual idea, and challenging them. Blindly trusting in FET because it's "innovative" or "different" is worse sheep-thinking than a manifesto of "baas" written on wool.

As for nature vs. civilization, that's a whole big discussion we can't hope to tackle here. I will say that we discard natural things that seem to make us suffer as a whole (murder or crapping on the ground) while embracing natural things that give us satisfaction (appreciating nature itself, eating, etc...) but I would never paint "natural" with the broad brush of "correct" to live my life.

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It is better to stand up for what you believe and be wrong, than to shrink from controversy.
And cue Godwin's law in 5...4...3...2.....

I'll just shortcut it by saying that standing up for what you believe when it is objectively wrong isn't admirable in the slightest, it's foolish. Some beliefs have no definitive proof one way or the other of course, and knock yourself out with your beliefs there, sure.

But FET ain't one of 'em. It's just wrong, and demonstrably so.

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Controversy is how a society evolves, and we cannot wait for the system to fix itself, real change always comes from outside the system from individuals or smaller, marginalized, competing systems.
Oh man, have I got a list for this.
1. No it isn't. VALID ideas create controversy. CONTROVERSY itself is not inherently valuable.
2. What system? The system where we know the earth is round and are able to plan GPS, airplane travel, and SPACE FLIGHT accordingly? What do we gain from suddenly embracing the seemingly unprovable precept that the earth is flat? Do any of those things work better? What the ever-loving hell actually changes on a systemic level?
3. Ah, but the system creates and molds those individuals who change things. Were it not for the systems that shaped them, they would not exist to attempt to exert change. It's gibberish nonsense to try and hold people up as somehow existing outside the societies they come from, even if they are great mavericks within their lives.

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Why is it socially permissible to question everyone in society from bankers, to bureaucrats, from media, to clergy, but not scientists?
This is not a scientocracy, it's a democracy/republic, principally at least, no individual or institution ought to be beyond internal, and external scrutiny...which's not to say all criticism is equal or should be believed, of course, duh!

Question scientists all you want; scientists themselves encourage this because that's a valid part of the scientific method.

But don't question the science itself when you can't come up with reasonable challenges to it.

I could tell you that our shadows are made of cheese, and that you shouldn't listen to sheep, self-servicing scientists who insist that it's just the result of blocked photons.

Then you'd say, "Well what proof do you have?"

And I'd say, "It doesn't make sense that shadows are blocked light. How could you see something that was simply the absence of something else? That's silly. Cheese makes way more sense."

Then you'd say, "Why cheese? How do you know our shadows aren't tiny leftover dinosaurs?"

And I'd say, "Well, cheese is just an aproximation. I'm just saying the pervasive so-called science on the matter is far from settled, and I think it's really important that instead we find the truth."

Then you'd say, "This is getting very frustrating. There are so many good and reasonable reasons not to believe what you say, ranging from the fact that our shadows do not smell like cheese and cannot be eaten, and that we can't pick them up like cheese."

And I'd say, "That's just light refracting around the cheese so you can't actually gauge where it is to grab it. That doesn't mean our shadows aren't cheese though."

That's FET at the end of the day. You can make any theory sound plausible so long as you don't need to prove anything concrete, can refute all existing proof as mere optical phenomena, and are steadfast in your belief no matter what comes along.

If we formed all theories the way that FET was formed and questioned all science along the same lines then there would be no science, we'd just be making wild guesses at things all the time, with no clue how to put together new technology, adapt our thinking accurately, or otherwise even interpret the world around us at a basic level, because all things would be seen as equally suspect and unprovable.

But sure, tell me again about how all this free-thinking and non-conformity and controversy is helping things. I'd love to know.
I'm sorry, was this suppose to be about me and my views?
Because it looks more like some caricature of me/my views you managed to conjure out of the aether, somehow.
My suggestion to you is: listen more, ask questions more.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 02:58:19 AM by Antithecystem »

Re: Needing a knowledgeable person in the FE movement to enlighten me.
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2017, 02:56:01 AM »

I’m sorry but Spheri’ is right.

To paint a picture of scientists, and those that believe in the roundness of the earth as mindless followers, shows, not only that you know little of the history, or the practice of science but you have the requisite narcissism to be a fully fledge conspiracy nut, you can see beyond the veil but the rest of us are “sheeple” (Galileo, Turring, Sakharov?) too scared to raise our hands, please!
 
This shadowy elite that leads us by the nose through history, would have to run back before the (supposed) birth of Christ, stretching through the rest of history across pretty much all nations. For what reason? To undermine the teachings of someone who hadn’t been born yet, that’s some forward thinking shadowy elite.

Or just maybe, science discovers stuff that leads us to challenge myths, and the myth-mongers don’t like that.
And who do you rely on for your history of science, but more scientists who're pro-science?
Why not look into say the philosophy of science instead, gloominaries such as Thomas Kuhn (who was also a physicist) and Paul Feyerabend, something that challenges science and its history?

You're not a narcissist just because you're a conspiracy or flat earth theorist.
You're not a narcissist just because you believe most people are gullible, easily lead and mislead by the intellectual and political elite.
Millions of people have a more conspiratorial view of history, so you're not that special just because you do.
I never said I'm incapable of being mislead, I never claimed to have all the answers, I don't, not by a long shot.

A flat earth theorist probably isn't claiming he or his community of alternative researchers and theorists have all the answers either, just that they, through some combination of dedication, diligence, luck, some intellect, and perhaps most importantly: the courage to challenge the intellectual authorities of our day, have uncovered lies about our earth and the heavens, and a body of science beginning with Samuel Rowbotham and zeteticism that has been, in their minds, unjustly marginalized by the greater scientific community.

All intellectual institutions make myths, mainstream science has admitted to myth making thousands of times, it has been corrected by individuals working both from within, on the fringes and occasionally outside academia altogether, and people continue to challenge mainstream science everyday to greater or lesser extents, and while many of these individuals may be all or mostly wrong, the scientific community needs to open itself up to criticism (again not saying all criticism is equally worth considering) in order to make genuine progress, and so do we.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 03:46:45 AM by Antithecystem »

Re: Needing a knowledgeable person in the FE movement to enlighten me.
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2017, 03:20:21 AM »
I should repeat I'm not a flat earther, but I'm open to the possibility, I have a more conspiratorial view of history than say most flat earth critics here have, nor am I a Christian, I'm an agnostic.
I'm trying to make a broader point here about daring to challenge intellectual authorities, of course not all challenge is equal, but I argue there is nobility in challenging authority even if it turns out to be foolhardy, at the end of the day we must all decide what is and isn't foolhardy for ourselves, based not exclusively on what the dominant institution says, but also on what outsiders say, as well as our own thoughts, and even our gut to some extent, not everything can be reasoned out in a linear, sequential fashion.

As for Christians, regardless of how foolhardy they may or may not be, I don't wish to get into that here, it's an enormous subject, there are billions of them, we all have to deal with that reality, for them in particular perhaps, if they really delve deeply into what their bible says, it shouldn't be such a stretch to conclude that Lucifer, if such an entity exists, might be manipulating science in all sorts of ways so as to discredit the creator.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 04:37:50 AM by Antithecystem »