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Offline Lemon

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Fallout series
« on: December 01, 2013, 03:23:14 PM »
Here everyone is welcome to discuss Fallout and related subjects. Although the hype has died down recently, this thread is doing well.


Quote
http://thesurvivor2299.com/

A count down site believed to be related to Fallout 4.

5 hours to go to Nuclear Winter from the posting of this topic. I hope it's a Fallout announcement, I need a new Fallout game or I'll cry.

Where do you think it'll take place? Alaska, Boston, Parsifal's backyard?


« Last Edit: January 02, 2014, 02:41:41 PM by Lemon »
NOTHING TO SEE HERE. IGNORE RAMA SET.

Saddam Hussein

Re: Survivor2299
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2013, 07:39:15 PM »
In before bawing about how Bethesda sucks at Fallout.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Survivor2299
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2013, 08:15:33 PM »
At the end of the timer Bethesda literally nukes the world to death. The most realistic and exciting game of Fallout yet!

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Offline rooster

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Re: Survivor2299
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2013, 08:18:19 PM »
I really hope it's a new Fallout game as well.

Saddam Hussein

Re: Survivor2299
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2013, 07:23:27 PM »
In before bawing about how Bethesda sucks at Fallout.

I see that I shall have to start this off.  Behold, this is what Bethesda has reduced Fallout to:

http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1165312-there-isnt-that-much-epicness-is-this-game/

:D

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Survivor2299
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2013, 07:30:14 PM »
These campaigns are really boring now.

"Let's post a vague message somewhere, include some reasonably trivial puzzles to get people started, then some difficult/plainly impossible puzzles along the way, and we've got ourselves a 'viral' advertising campaign. Oh, and we need countdowns. Many countdowns."

It was a good idea at first, but we don't need it for literally every single big game.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
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Offline Crudblud

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Re: Survivor2299
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2013, 09:14:57 PM »
In before bawing about how Bethesda sucks at Fallout.

I see that I shall have to start this off.  Behold, this is what Bethesda has reduced Fallout to:

http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1165312-there-isnt-that-much-epicness-is-this-game/

:D

The horror... the horror...

Saddam Hussein

Re: Survivor2299
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2013, 11:16:51 PM »
I maintain that you were too hard on F3, Crudblud.  Yes, the main story is a blatant rehash of F2, and they do recycle a lot of elements from the previous games that they probably would have been better off leaving alone, like the Enclave, but it was their first game in the franchise.  They obviously wanted to take some baby steps with their worldbuilding at first, maybe to get a feel for the universe they were taking on, before making any huge changes to it themselves.  It's not like they had no respect for it and just wanted to stomp all over it.  If that had been the case, they probably would have simply rebooted it.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 12:58:18 AM by Saddam Hussein »

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Offline rooster

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Re: Survivor2299
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2013, 12:19:43 AM »
I play it as a reboot. I haven't played F1 or 2. People have told me not to bother.

Saddam Hussein

Re: Survivor2299
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2013, 02:11:44 AM »
That doesn't make it a reboot.  The events of the first two games still happened, and the later games do occasionally refer to them.

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Offline rooster

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Re: Survivor2299
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2013, 04:01:53 AM »
That doesn't make it a reboot.  The events of the first two games still happened, and the later games do occasionally refer to them.
Shh, it's a reboot. And I have no idea that it refers to them so it is basically a stand alone.

Saddam Hussein

Re: Survivor2299
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2013, 01:49:52 PM »
That doesn't make it a reboot.  The events of the first two games still happened, and the later games do occasionally refer to them.
Shh, it's a reboot. And I have no idea that it refers to them so it is basically a stand alone.

It's a standalone to the degree that you don't have to play the other games to know what's going on.  But that's no different to any of the other games in the series - the events of each game are self-contained for the most part.

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Offline Crudblud

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Re: Survivor2299
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2013, 03:21:40 PM »
In all fairness, F3 should have been totally unrelated to the originals; why go to the opposite end of the country if not to relieve yourself of the burden of all the accumulated history of the previous games? Well, it seems they at least started wanting to do that, but then they brought a whole mess of west coast stuff over with them, used them in ways that contradicted everything we learned about them prior to that, yet still chose to reference prior events from the west coast, undermining the potential for distancing the game from its predecessors even further, and reinforcing the feeling, in the minds of those who did play the originals, of something being terribly amiss. It's also kind of silly that in 2277, 200 years after the bombs fell, the Capital Wasteland is more desolate and uncivilised than F1's California, which was set in 2161 and had viable farms, trading companies, several reasonably sized cities etc. Yes, according to the lore, DC was hit harder than California, but they've also had an extra 116 years to get their shit together.

I can bring up more specific examples if no one's bothered about spoilers for the first two games, but for now I'll leave it at that.

Saddam Hussein

Re: Survivor2299
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2013, 05:28:11 PM »
I think it's safe to say that nobody here is worried about spoilers.  Please, continue.

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Offline rooster

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Re: Survivor2299
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2013, 06:20:07 PM »
Yeah, I don't think I'll play them and if I do I'm not worried about any spoilers.

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Offline Snupes

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Re: Survivor2299
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2013, 11:10:35 PM »
I was actually going to ask you exactly what they ruined and expand on your point, 'cause I'm interested. Go on. :]
Quote from: garygreen date=1480782226
i also took an online quiz that said i was a giraffe.  and i guess you're dumb enough to believe that i must be because the internet said so.

Saddam Hussein

Re: Survivor2299
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2013, 11:16:45 PM »
I am now playing the original, just because.

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Offline Crudblud

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Re: Survivor2299
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2013, 08:39:36 PM »
Okay, my apologies for the delay, folks, here's a (by no means exhaustive) account of my issues with Fallout 3.

I've been reading up on the lore to make sure I have my facts straight, and the inclusion of Super Mutants, the Enclave and even the Brotherhood of Steel is fine in terms of lore, just about, although I can't shake the feeling that they were brought in because of laziness. As I said before, I really think it would have been best if F3 was a clean break, a new story away from the events of the other games, and with the new setting it seemed like that's what they were going for, it was a disappointment in the extreme to be given the same old stuff but in a terribly dumbed down manner.

The SMs are explained away by Vault 87. FEV was always a government project, so it stands to reason there would be a vault or two acting as a test arena. My main problem is that the SMs are just a little bit too similar to The Master's Mariposa SMs, I find it hard to believe that both were created under the same conditions using the same process. It would have been nice to see some diversity there, rather than the same thing with a new paint job. The fact that they are equipped with energy weapons, miniature nuke launchers and full body armour is also bizarre, where is all that coming from? In F1 it made sense, the SMs were created at a military base where weapons and other combat related stuff would be readily available, but here it's just some guys in a vault which might have slightly more weapons than usual, but not enough to arm a force that could terrorise a city.

The Enclave had bases in places other than California, so it makes sense that they would be able to amass a large force once again after such a devastating defeat. My problem here is that the game has nothing new to say about them, their philosophy and the lengths they will go to do achieve their goals are all fully explained in F2, their appearance here offers nothing new or interesting. On top of that, they are far less intimidating than they were in F2, not least of all because they don't have anything like Frank Horrigan on their side, and my essential feeling on encountering their soldiers in the field for the first time is: "why am I being made to fight you again?"—a feeling compounded by every piece of narrative development concerning them throughout the game.

If the Enclave's problem was total redundancy, the Brotherhood of Steel's problem is that there's plenty new to say, but it's totally incongruous with everything that makes them what they are. The BoS doesn't strictly prohibit involvement with outsiders, but it is very rare that they choose to deal with them, and even more rare that they choose to do so in a friendly manner. In your first encounter with them in F1, they purposely send you to a death trap just to keep you out of their business. They wouldn't think twice about letting a town be overrun by deathclaws, so long as they didn't pose a potential threat to them. Their primary interests are self-preservation, finding pre-war technology, learning how it works and keeping it out of the hands of those who might misuse it, and that last part is about as close as they get to being the wasteland guardians they are made out to be here. To have them be altruistic do-gooders claiming a stake in the survival of wastelanders is just weird, and I find it hard to believe that Elder Lyons would not have been ousted for going against both the word and spirit of the Codex, let alone that those who did challenge him were so few in number that they were thrown out.

Again, lore wise the presence of all these ostensibly west coast elements in DC checks out, but I just don't know why they're there from a storytelling perspective, they feel like place-holders for other things that should have been there instead. It's as if Bethesda started out with the intention of doing something totally different, then changed their mind halfway through and decided to pander to fans of the originals, and ultimately ended up with some bizarre hybrid that doesn't quite work.  I think the BoS and Enclave could have worked if, instead of being central figures, they were two sides of a widespread conflict that formed the backdrop for the story, which could have been a perfectly good coming-of-age tale. With the father/son (or daughter) thing, it seems like it would have been served much better as a small, personal drama story, rather than an all out “ur savin da wastlanz wit ur dade n opdimuse prim!” kind of thing. Let big things happen, but keep the focus on the small things. I really think that would have been a story worth telling, but the story we got was a mish-mash of F1 and 2 with little rhyme or reason.

I already talked about the seemingly anachronistic setting, how it makes no sense that, even with the greater fire power used on DC, the wasteland would remain almost totally unsettled after 200 years where California was already comparatively thriving after not even 100. Not to say there aren't any settlements in DC, there are quite a few, but none of them seem to make any sense aside from Rivet City. Megaton is built around a nuke, at which one feels they almost deserve to be blown up for being so stupid; Little Lamplight is just... do I really need to say why Little Lamplight is bad?; Big Town is apparently constantly harassed by SMs, which is bizarre considering they have no guns (bizarre in itself for two reasons: Big Towners are former Little Lamplighters, and the latter have access to considerable weaponry; you can literally find fully loaded guns in trash cans in the Capital Wasteland) and could easily be wiped out in one fell swoop—SMs are not the smartest, but they are quite effective at killing unarmed civilians; Girdershade consists of a woman who collects Nuka Cola memorabilia through means unknown and some random dude who wants to bang her, how they have survived more than a couple of months is unknown to me. There are some others that are slipping my mind at this point, some may aid my case, others may not, but I feel like my point that most of these make no goddamn sense has been made. I'm not even talking about realism here, just about making sense in the context of the world.

Speaking of the world, the Capital Wasteland doesn't feel like Fallout at all. In essence this is a good thing, treading new ground for the series, but the realisation presented is really quite generic, looking more like the aftermath of a Roland Emmerich film in which the heroes never showed up, and so far removed from the spirit of the previous games that it just doesn't belong. Yes, F1 and 2 presented harsh worlds which were often very bleak, but not this washed out Book of Eli-looking stuff with a sickly Matrix-green pallor. The bleakness was also contrasted with well placed humour, something which is in very short supply here—whether that's down to the writing or the horrendous voice acting is a matter for debate, perhaps. I think that about sums it up; the ideas are not bad, but they have been realised in a lazy manner and ultimately missed the point of Fallout by several miles.

I sincerely hope they get their shit together for Fallout 4, it's not right that the series should be in the hands of people who don't understand it. I'm not saying I could do a better job*, I'm just a fan who wants to see one of my favourite gaming franchises get back on its feet after the atrocities that followed in the wake of Black Isle's disbandment. New Vegas was not perfect, but it was a big step in the right direction, and I can only hope the people at Bethesda have taken on board what made it so much more worthy of being the third numbered title in the series than their own attempt, and have taken steps to make sure they don't take more blind swings of the axe at an already thoroughly thrashed title in this latest instalment.

*okay, I totally am

Saddam Hussein

Re: Survivor2299
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2013, 04:09:04 AM »
lore lore lore

The SMs are explained away by Vault 87. FEV was always a government project, so it stands to reason there would be a vault or two acting as a test arena. My main problem is that the SMs are just a little bit too similar to The Master's Mariposa SMs, I find it hard to believe that both were created under the same conditions using the same process. It would have been nice to see some diversity there, rather than the same thing with a new paint job. The fact that they are equipped with energy weapons, miniature nuke launchers and full body armour is also bizarre, where is all that coming from? In F1 it made sense, the SMs were created at a military base where weapons and other combat related stuff would be readily available, but here it's just some guys in a vault which might have slightly more weapons than usual, but not enough to arm a force that could terrorise a city.

It was the same FEV, so it makes sense that the SMs would be similar.  Perhaps they could have gone for a little more variety, yes, but I imagine they were worried about getting a reaction from the fans of "That's not what the SMs look like!  Betrayal!"

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The Enclave had bases in places other than California, so it makes sense that they would be able to amass a large force once again after such a devastating defeat. My problem here is that the game has nothing new to say about them, their philosophy and the lengths they will go to do achieve their goals are all fully explained in F2, their appearance here offers nothing new or interesting. On top of that, they are far less intimidating than they were in F2, not least of all because they don't have anything like Frank Horrigan on their side, and my essential feeling on encountering their soldiers in the field for the first time is: "why am I being made to fight you again?"—a feeling compounded by every piece of narrative development concerning them throughout the game.

This probably goes back to what I was saying earlier about them wanting to start off slowly with their world-building and get new players accustomed to the Fallout universe.  However, there is one thing that the Enclave had in this game that they didn't have in F2 - Malcolm McDowell.  Come on, you have to admit that you liked Eden at least a little.  McDowell gleefully chewed the scenery anytime he spoke, and he was obviously having so much fun with the role that it was impossible not to enjoy it along with him.  In fact, I'd say that he was one of the best parts of the game.

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If the Enclave's problem was total redundancy, the Brotherhood of Steel's problem is that there's plenty new to say, but it's totally incongruous with everything that makes them what they are. The BoS doesn't strictly prohibit involvement with outsiders, but it is very rare that they choose to deal with them, and even more rare that they choose to do so in a friendly manner. In your first encounter with them in F1, they purposely send you to a death trap just to keep you out of their business. They wouldn't think twice about letting a town be overrun by deathclaws, so long as they didn't pose a potential threat to them. Their primary interests are self-preservation, finding pre-war technology, learning how it works and keeping it out of the hands of those who might misuse it, and that last part is about as close as they get to being the wasteland guardians they are made out to be here. To have them be altruistic do-gooders claiming a stake in the survival of wastelanders is just weird, and I find it hard to believe that Elder Lyons would not have been ousted for going against both the word and spirit of the Codex, let alone that those who did challenge him were so few in number that they were thrown out.

When you make a complaint like this, is it any wonder that Bethesda decided not to throw in any new twists with the Enclave?  In any case, it's made very clear all throughout the game that this chapter of the Brotherhood has abandoned its original mission, and that the higher-ups are not at all happy about it - but what can they do?  Go to war?  Send over more men and slaughter them all?  You could make the argument that this conflict of principles wasn't handled very well, and maybe it wasn't, but the concept itself isn't a bad one, and it's quite plausible that a situation like this would arise at some point during the Brotherhood's long history.  After all, Lyons wasn't the only member to grow disillusioned with the Brotherhood's goals and purpose; he just took it further than anyone else.

Quote
Again, lore wise the presence of all these ostensibly west coast elements in DC checks out, but I just don't know why they're there from a storytelling perspective, they feel like place-holders for other things that should have been there instead. It's as if Bethesda started out with the intention of doing something totally different, then changed their mind halfway through and decided to pander to fans of the originals, and ultimately ended up with some bizarre hybrid that doesn't quite work.  I think the BoS and Enclave could have worked if, instead of being central figures, they were two sides of a widespread conflict that formed the backdrop for the story, which could have been a perfectly good coming-of-age tale. With the father/son (or daughter) thing, it seems like it would have been served much better as a small, personal drama story, rather than an all out “ur savin da wastlanz wit ur dade n opdimuse prim!” kind of thing. Let big things happen, but keep the focus on the small things. I really think that would have been a story worth telling, but the story we got was a mish-mash of F1 and 2 with little rhyme or reason.

Hmm.  An interesting idea.

Quote
I already talked about the seemingly anachronistic setting, how it makes no sense that, even with the greater fire power used on DC, the wasteland would remain almost totally unsettled after 200 years where California was already comparatively thriving after not even 100. Not to say there aren't any settlements in DC, there are quite a few, but none of them seem to make any sense aside from Rivet City. Megaton is built around a nuke, at which one feels they almost deserve to be blown up for being so stupid; Little Lamplight is just... do I really need to say why Little Lamplight is bad?; Big Town is apparently constantly harassed by SMs, which is bizarre considering they have no guns (bizarre in itself for two reasons: Big Towners are former Little Lamplighters, and the latter have access to considerable weaponry; you can literally find fully loaded guns in trash cans in the Capital Wasteland) and could easily be wiped out in one fell swoop—SMs are not the smartest, but they are quite effective at killing unarmed civilians; Girdershade consists of a woman who collects Nuka Cola memorabilia through means unknown and some random dude who wants to bang her, how they have survived more than a couple of months is unknown to me. There are some others that are slipping my mind at this point, some may aid my case, others may not, but I feel like my point that most of these make no goddamn sense has been made. I'm not even talking about realism here, just about making sense in the context of the world.

I can't disagree with any of this - well, the one thing I will say is that the guy in Girdershade is a badass who's capable of protecting the two of them, but it's still a silly setup, and so are all the other places you mentioned.  Someone down the line must have thought that eccentricity was the way to go for pretty much everyone in the game.  Maybe they thought it would be funny?

Quote
Speaking of the world, the Capital Wasteland doesn't feel like Fallout at all. In essence this is a good thing, treading new ground for the series, but the realisation presented is really quite generic, looking more like the aftermath of a Roland Emmerich film in which the heroes never showed up, and so far removed from the spirit of the previous games that it just doesn't belong. Yes, F1 and 2 presented harsh worlds which were often very bleak, but not this washed out Book of Eli-looking stuff with a sickly Matrix-green pallor. The bleakness was also contrasted with well placed humour, something which is in very short supply here—whether that's down to the writing or the horrendous voice acting is a matter for debate, perhaps.

Yeah, I think Bethesda was more interested in depicting a post-apocalyptic world than one that was post-post-apocalyptic.  That certainly wasn't what Fallout was about.  And I also agree that the comedy, writing, and voice acting were almost entirely crap.  I think the funniest part of the game is when Autumn is interrogating you, and you have the option to reply with "Fuck you," and follow it up with, "No, seriously.  Fuck you."  That really tickled me for some reason.

Anyway, thanks for the lengthy response.  I don't suppose you've played the DLC, by any chance?

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Offline Ghost Spaghetti

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Re: Survivor2299
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2013, 08:51:37 AM »
I can't remember, did dropping your intelligence stats to 1 give you the 'stupid' dialogue options as in FNV?